NHL Off-Season Thread...

[The Czech Republic 0]

I'm guessing Luongo?

 

But yeah thanks for backing me up. Hell, give me pads, a mask, and the New Jersey Devils, and I can go 6 for 6 on the night.

[the max 0]

Ridiculous.

 

I don't particularly like Marty Brodeur, but he does what a goaltender has to do; Be there for his team when the defense has a breakdown. His numbers are indicative of that. Does he play on a defensive specializing team? Yes, and I've noted that in the past, but saying that anyone could step into his shoes is just stupid.

 

Grant Fuhr, who played on the Oilers of 1980s didn't have the GAA of 2.25 or less, or the SV% of .930+ (hugely inacurrate, I know), but he played like a fighting champion and made the saves that were needed for the Edmonton Oilers to win. A lot of people say that because of his not normal stats, Grant Fuhr isn't a great goalie, but he could face as many shots as there are in most of today's NHL games and a lot of times had to be the guy that bailed the Oilers out during two on ones or three on ones if they gave the puck up (which they did quite a bit).

 

I do not deny that Grant Fuhr is a great goaltender. But, replace where it says 'Edmonton Oilers' there and replace it with 'New Jersey Devils' or any other team that has won a Cup, and you've just described any goaltender in NHL.

 

I doubt any goalie of today's game that plays for a trap team or in the East (oh hell I'll say that there's only ONE goalie who can do it in the game today) put them on any team from the 80s and have a GAA of 3.00 or a save % of .890. These guys don't face as many shots as they did before, they don't see them as often as they used to, and they get stuck in a shitty style of hockey that makes them, for lack of a better term, lazy in coming up with the big saves.

 

Luongo, Brodeur, Raycroft, Kiprusoff, Nabokov, Giguere, Denis, Vokoun...all have come up with big saves in the past few years, when it counts (except for Denis, as Columbus has never made the playoffs.) GAA and SP% are kept as goaltending stat. Not as a stat indicative of a defense in front of the goaltender.

 

Examples?

 

Roberto Luongo (2.43/.931 after facing over 2400 shots) with an average at best defense in front of him.

Tomas Vokoun (2.53/.909 facing almost 2000 shots) with a decent defense...stole two games against Detroit when it counted

Marc Denis (2.56/.918 facing almost 2000 shots) with a terrible defense

 

That's three examples of players on bad teams, with a bad D in front of them having very good numbers (Luongo could have/should have won the Hart). They came up with big saves (I watched Luongo essentially single-handedly keep Florida close to the 8 seed in the last month of the season).

 

And that only goalie that I think could be put in a run and gun team, set the amount of saves made by a goalie during the regular season last year. I think you all know his name.

 

Luongo, duh. He could play on any style of team and excel. But, players like Louie don't come along often, but there are simularities on other teams. See Denis, Vokoun, and Raycroft. They are are superb positionally and as a result, give their team the opportunity to win. Having positioning as an asset is great and can offset a bad defense. But...Cloutier (who this argument is about) has a good defense in front of him. He doesn't have an excuse, and Vancouver doesn't have one for giving him 3 million fucking dollars.

[The Czech Republic 0]

That's, on average, one shot every ten minutes! I'd be ready.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Ridiculous.

No, it's not. In today's game, a mediocre goaltender can look like a star because of the trapping system, lack of shots (many and quality shots), and also having the most stingy defensive minded team in front of him.

 

And yes, I've always considered Martin Brodeur a good goaltender. As great as everyone makes out? No. If all a team does is get a goal and then sit on it, how can you honestly judge a goaltender? The whole team builds itself on keeping that goal as the "most necessary thing", and don't give the other team quality shots. Hence, I question Broduer's greatness because how often has the opposing team had good shots against him? Not very. Put him on a run and gun team and he performs like this, then I'll concede that he's a great goaltender.

 

As has been made mention, a good goaltender is able to produce during any stitch and time in front of any one. Only goaltender I've seen do that is Roberto Luango.

[Guest The Winter Of My Discontent]

Ridiculous.

 

I don't particularly like Marty Brodeur, but he does what a goaltender has to do; Be there for his team when the defense has a breakdown. His numbers are indicative of that. Does he play on a defensive specializing team? Yes, and I've noted that in the past, but saying that anyone could step into his shoes is just stupid.

Agreed. Brodeur has better numbers than Patrick Roy. If Marty played in a Canadian hockey center, he'd be consider one of the best ever. But because he competes in the same division as the Senators, Canadiens, and especially the Leafs, his greatness and legacy is lessened.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Ridiculous.

 

I don't particularly like Marty Brodeur, but he does what a goaltender has to do; Be there for his team when the defense has a breakdown. His numbers are indicative of that. Does he play on a defensive specializing team? Yes, and I've noted that in the past, but saying that anyone could step into his shoes is just stupid.

Agreed. Brodeur has better numbers than Patrick Roy. If Marty played in a Canadian hockey center, he'd be consider one of the best ever. But because he competes in the same division as the Senators, Canadiens, and especially the Leafs, his greatness and legacy is lessened.

I honestly don't care what division he plays for. What I care about is that his team sits on a single goal lead in most cases and that's all they do. Most shots that Brodeur faces are not quality shots and can be easily saved.

 

That's my problem. Then again, that's my problem with the whole league. No goaltender these days faces quality shots. There used to be at least 14-16 good shots that could be going into the net. Nowadays, I'm lucky if the actual GOALS are quality shots.

[Guest The Winter Of My Discontent]

Ridiculous.

 

I don't particularly like Marty Brodeur, but he does what a goaltender has to do; Be there for his team when the defense has a breakdown. His numbers are indicative of that. Does he play on a defensive specializing team? Yes, and I've noted that in the past, but saying that anyone could step into his shoes is just stupid.

Agreed. Brodeur has better numbers than Patrick Roy. If Marty played in a Canadian hockey center, he'd be consider one of the best ever. But because he competes in the same division as the Senators, Canadiens, and especially the Leafs, his greatness and legacy is lessened.

I honestly don't care what division he plays for. What I care about is that his team sits on a single goal lead in most cases and that's all they do. Most shots that Brodeur faces are not quality shots and can be easily saved.

 

That's my problem. Then again, that's my problem with the whole league. No goaltender these days faces quality shots. There used to be at least 14-16 good shots that could be going into the net. Nowadays, I'm lucky if the actual GOALS are quality shots.

You have no idea.

 

Brodeur was just as impressive during the NHL's scoring boom in the early-mid 90's when Hull and Salanne where bagging 80 and 70 goals a year respectively. He was still amazing. Your logic is flawed. The fact that his team still manages to do well every year is due to a defense, but the goaltending is their anchor. Take away Broduer and put in another goalie, I gaurentee the Devils will suffer. No one is more dependable and consistant than Broduer. Not by a long shot.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Not to nit-pick, Brodeur plays in the same division as the Rangers, Islanders, Flyers, and Penguins. And he cheated on his wife with her sister.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Stats taken from the Internet Hockey Database (http://www.hockeydb.com)

 

Brodeur's first season in the NHL was 93-94, in which he only played 47 games.

 

Top Goal Scorers Of Teams During That Period:

Adam Graves - NYR - 52

John MacLean - NJ - 37

Dmitri Khristich - WAS - 29

Steve Thomas - NYI - 42

Bob Kudelski - FLO - 40

Eric Lindros - PHI - 44

Petr Klima - TB - 28

Sergei Federov - DET - 56

Dave Andreychuk - TOR - 53

Mike Madano - DAL - 50

Brett Hull - STL - 57

Jeremy Roenick - CHI - 46

Keith Tkachuk - WIN - 41

Kevin Stevens - PIT - 41

Cam Neeley - BOS - 50

Vincent Damphousse - MON - 40

Dale Hawerchuk - BUF - 35

Mats Sundin - QUE - 32

Geoff Sanderson - HAR - 41

Alexei Yashin - OTT - 30

Gary Roberts - CAL - 41

Pavel Bure - VAN - 60

Sergei Marakov - SJ - 30

Bob Corkum - ANA - 23

Luc Robitille - LA - 44

Jason Arnott - EDM - 33

 

Do you notice anywhere that there is an 70 or 80 goal scorer? NO. Most of them were 30s-40s, I'll admit. However, he only played half a season. Chris Terreri also played half the season. Let's check out his stats and compare them to Brodeur's.

 

Martin Brodeur

GP - 47

MIN - 2625

GA - 105

GAA - 2.40

W - 27

L - 11

T - 8

SVS - 1133

PCT - 0.915

SO - 3

 

Chris Terreri

GP - 44

MIN - 2340

GA - 106

GAA - 2.72

W - 20

L - 11

T - 4

SVS - 1035

PCT - 0.907

SO - 2

 

Hm... Well look at that. Guess who has almost the exact same stats as Martin Brodeur. It's the only year the two play almost the exact amount of games as Terreri then goes on to be back up to every team he plays for.

 

Now then. Wasn't someone ... I think it was you, Max Power, that said something about stats tell the story. To me this tells me that under the NJ system, Terreri would do the exact same as Brodeur and had. Yes, his GAA was above 3 before this season. However, before the 93-94 season in the 92-93 season, only starting goalies Ed Belfour of the Chicago Blackhawks (75 games) and Felix Potvin of the Toronto Maple Leafs (48 games) had GAAs of under 3. In the 93-94 season 16 goaltenders went under 3 GAA that were their teams starters (Terreri is considered one because NJ at the time went with both goaltenders till they decided on Brodeur).

 

Did goaltenders suddenly get really good? No. This is when the trap was introduced to the game, and when teams decided to get defensive mind. Most players began not to "run and gun" their shots, but rather just wait for the "perfect shot". Hence the quality of shots goes down as well.

Edited August 8, 2004 by Lightning Flik

[Guest Rrrsh]

I agree that Broduer is overrated, but their is one major flaw in your theory.

 

He won Gold in 02.

[Lightning Flik 0]

I agree that Broduer is overrated, but their is one major flaw in your theory.

 

He won Gold in 02.

Knew someone would bring that up.

 

But you must also remember that Martin Brodeur also had the best people that Canada could provide in front of him. Best people = best stats.

 

By best people, I mean most able to perform what is asked of them. Not in terms of "greatness" or "skill in one category".

 

Oh and might I point this out (these stats come from CNNSI.com):

 

Martin Gerber - Switzerland - GPI 3 - GA 4 - SV% .958

Mike Ritcher - United States - GPI 4 - GA 9 - SV% .932

Nikolai Khabibulin - Russia - GPI 6 - GA 14 - SV% .930

Tommy Salo - Sweden - GPI 3 - GA 7 - SV% .924

Dominik Hasek - Czech Republic - GPI 4 - GA 8 - SV% .924

Martin Brodeur - Canada - GPI 5 - GA 9 - SV% .917

 

Only Gerber beat Brodeur's GAA. However, these people beat Brodeur in terms of SV%. All of these teams were competing for the Gold Medal, might I add.

 

I left off SA for a reason.

 

Martin Brodeur faced 109 shots in 5 games and let in 9 goals. Brodeur faced an average of 22 shots.

 

Gerber faced 95 shots in 3 games. He only allowed 4 goals. He also beats Brodeur out right. He faced an average of 32 shots.

 

Ritcher faced 132 shots in 4 games. He only allowed 9 goals. Yet he faced 23 more shots and has the same amount of goals let in, in one game less. He faced an average of 33 shots.

 

Khabibulin faced 200 shots in 6 games. He only allowed 14 goals. Yes, he let in more goals than Brodeur, but he faced on average 33 shots a game.

 

Salo faced 93 shots in 3 games. He only allowed 7 goals. He faced an average of 31 shots. Again, about the same amount of shots, yet same amount of goals. Yet, more shots in a less of a span.

 

Hasek faced 105 shots in 4 games. He only allowed 8 goals. He faced on average of 26 shots. He faced about the same amount of shots Brodeur did.

 

Now then. Does anyone see what I'm saying? Brodeur sees less shots in total, and of course his totals will be lower.

 

Might I also add that for a guy who is so great, why could Brodeur not get at least one shut out during this tournement? Especially in a 7-1 drubbing of Belarus!

[the max 0]

You're forgetting that he stops what's put in front of him, and routinely does this better than almost anyone.

 

How we got onto this topic from Cloutier is beyond me, but here's the difference:

 

Brodeur: Stops shots when they matter, regarded as one of the best in the game. 3 Cups and a gold medal back this.

 

Cloutier: Hasn't risen to the pressure of being a number one goaltender. Doesn't stop shots when they matter, and has put up atrocious numbers at some points.

 

 

 

I realize that I may have started a shitstorm when I brought up numbers. But don't hide Cloutier on the fact that he doesn't play on a good defensive team. A goaltender that is WORTH 3 million dollars stops those shots AND puts up consistant numbers regardless of his teams' defensive situation. Cloutier does not do that, and as a result, is not worth three million dollars. PERIOD.

[Lightning Flik 0]

You're forgetting that he stops what's put in front of him, and routinely does this better than almost anyone.

 

How we got onto this topic from Cloutier is beyond me, but here's the difference:

That isn't what I'm debating. I'm debating Brodeur's greatness and how it was the New Jersey system and their sitting on a single goal that makes him so great, and how he doesn't face quality shots.

 

I never once debated about Cloutier. Only about Brodeur's greatness.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

For further proof...

 

109 shots / 9 GA = 12.11 shots per goal for Brodeur.

 

If we project these numbers to 200 shots in 6 games(same # of shots as Khabibulin in same # of games) we divide 200 shots / 12.11 to get 17 projected GA. Remember Khabibulin has 14 goals in the same # of shots. Also his av. shots faced goes from 22 to 33 per game just to make him more in line with everybody else.

 

Khabibulin's GAA was 2.33 which is pretty good. Brodeur's projections would put his GAA at 2.83 which is solid but not nearly as good as Khabibulin's GAA.

 

Keep in mind that both goalies would've faced the same # of shots in the same # of games and same average # of shots per game.

 

Also Khabibulin had 200 shots / 14 goals = 14.29 shots per goal.

For Brodeur based on projections, he'd come out to 200 shots / 17 goals = 11.77 shots per goal.

[cue_meanie 0]

I agree that Brodeur is over rated but the above is no where near "proof" it's a really strange hypothetical situation that wont ever occur, because number of shots vs quality of shots isnt included.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Still though, if you decrease the amount of shots, you decrease the amount of quality shots. You can only get quality shots if the opposing team gets shots onto the net. The less shots, the less the quality of shots are being tossed at him.

[Guest Rrrsh]

To resond

 

1: 3 Mill is NOTHING in this day of age. So dont act that if u get 3 mill, u need to be an elite goalie. Cloots's 3 Mill compared to other is fair

 

2: With Broduer winning a Gold, he didn't lose a game. You can throw stats all you want, but he never lost in a system that was far from defensive minded. I am not saying he had an uphill battle, but there were plenty of great scoring chances that were stopped by Broduer.

 

3. Max, your the only one comparing Cloots to Broduer. Why? No one said Cloots was as good as Broduer. Make the comparison to sumone who is making 3 mill and is on a team that plays Vancouver style. That like comparing Trent Dilfer's stats when he won a ring to Warner's stats. Two totally different situations, no one would ever compare the 2.

[the max 0]

1- 3 million is quite a bit of money. Established goaltenders make that much and more.

 

2- He didn't lose a game, yes. And he stopped the shots that he had to stop.

 

3- Who is Trent Dilfer? And I only vaguely know Kurt Warner.

 

Comparative players in the same system?

 

David Aebischer...500K got Colorado a 2.09/.924 in a simular system, with simular players (finesse captain, gritty second center, good role-players, good defense.)

 

Rick DiPietro...1.075M got the Isles a 2.36/.911 in a simular system.

 

 

 

 

 

And I don't want to compare Brodeur to Cloutier either. Cloutier is who we were discussing in the first place.

[Guest Rrrsh]

The Islanders dont open it up AT ALL.

 

Abby played well. But its one season, Theodore and Guigere also had good years, then they went back down to earth . Abby is far from established, and he was decent in the playoffs. He didnt set any world on fire.

 

Plus neither of those goalies signed the contracts as starters. So those numbers are un-fair to judge.

[cue_meanie 0]

If you're gonna bring Theodore and Jiggy into a comparison with CLOUTIER you're insane. And both play for teams considerably worse then Vancouver in front, which says to me they're better goalies. Theodore hasn't "fallen back to earth" either, he's been Montreal's best player for the past 3 years, save for some shakiness in the 03 season, but still he's been what "good" goalies should be, the teams best player. And without Jiggy, Anaheim wouldn't have made the playoffs two years ago, let alone make it to the final, they did that on their goalies back something Vancouver doesnt have the luxury of because Cloutier is not capable of strapping a team on his back and taking them all the way. Again, this does not mean that he's "bad" it means he's not good enough to start on a team that has all the other tools necessary to win the Stanley Cup.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I brought up Theo and Giggy because they had "great" years, got a massive contract, then had an off year. Thats not being consistant, Cloots played far better than Giggy last year and better than Theo 2 years ago. So, for what their being paid, I would say that their not worth their contract.

[the max 0]

To be fair to Theo, he had a fucking TON of off-season problems this year, IIRC. Once everything was settled down there, he was fine.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Theo bounced back, but he was just an example in that very few goalie are consistantly "great" in the league. So the notion that Cloots dosnt deserve middle-of-the-pack vetern starters money is just not accurate.

[the max 0]

He's not exactly what I'd call a veteran...And he's never going to be worth 3 million dollars.

 

Hope the Canucks enjoy losing early in the playoffs.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Nice comeback.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Note: Took TSA / Goals Allowed(Top 15 in TSA listed). Salaries are from USATODAY.com.

2003-2004

Roberto Luongo: 14.39 shots per goal($1.9 Mill)

Marc Denis: 12.16 shots per goal($1.55 Mill)

Olaf Kolzig: 10.88 shots per goal($6.25 Mill)

Tomas Vokoun: 11.00 shots per goal($1.2 Mill)

Jose Theodore: 12.40 shots per goal($5.5 Mill)

Martin Brodeur: 11.98 shots per goal($6.89 Mill)

Pasi Nurminen: 10.36 shots per goal($1.1 Mill)

David Aebischer: 13.20 shots per goal($550 K)

Kevin Weekes: 11.32 shots per goal($2.35 Mill)

Marty Turco: 11.44 shots per goal(($3.64 Mill)

J.S. Giguere: 11.59 shots per goal($4.5 Mill)

Evgeni Nabokov: 12.68 shots per goal($3.26 Mill)

Chris Osgood: 11.14 shots per goal($3.00 Mill)

Andrew Raycroft: 13.56 shots per goal($550 K)

Dan Cloutier: 11.60 shots per goal($2.50 Mill)

Rick DiPietro(Just to compare): 11.26 shots per goal($1.18 Mill)

 

Looking at that, Cloutier is pretty middle of the pack. He had a better SPG(although you can argue that decimals should be rounded) then Kevin Weekes, Marty Turco, Chris Osgood, Tomas Vokoun, Olaf Kolzig, Rick DiPietro and Pasi Nurminen. Most of those guys make less then $2.50 Million with only Osgood, Kolzig and Turco exceeding $3 Mill and only Weekes exceeding $2 Mill. Looking at that, I'd say that Cloutier is good for the total he's earning and could be argued that he's a little overpaid.

[the max 0]

http://tsn.ca/news_story.asp?ID=94235

 

Bolts avoid arbitration with Modin. As an aside, he looks like Sabretooth from X-Men...

 

[starvenger 0]

3- Who is Trent Dilfer? And I only vaguely know Kurt Warner.

 

Comparative players in the same system?

Trent Dilfer was the QB of the Baltimore Ravens when they won the Super Bowl. The Ravens are known for their tough defence more than their offence, which consists of running back Jamal Lewis and a bunch of receivers.

 

Kurt Warner was QB for the St Louis Rams when THEY won the Super Bowl. While their defence wasn't bad either, they're more known for a high-octane offence.

 

Anyways, as far as Brodeur goes, he backstopped Canada tp gold vs some of the best in the world, with some of the best in the world. It's not concrete proof that he's a top echelon goalie, but it's good enough evidence for me.

 

Bolts avoid arbitration with Modin. As an aside, he looks like Sabretooth from X-Men...

I would've said lovechild of movie Sabretooth and Stefan Edberg, but that's just me...

[CanadianChris 0]

Sens have resigned The Big Z, according to the team's website.

[the max 0]

Excellent signing. Still hard to believe that they got him for Alex Yashin...

 

A bad deal by Mike Milbury?! Get out of town!!

 

 

Isles get: Yashin

 

Sens get: Chara, Muckalt, Isles first round pick...turned out to be Spezza.