NHL Off-Season Thread...

[The Czech Republic 0]

Rrrsh, there aren't 4 cities in Canada capable of supporting a pro team right now ... even if Winnipeg & Quebec City are given a second chance, what other two cities will get a franchise?  (sorry if that sounds like an arrogant American ... if it helps any, I think that there are too many US teams that are located in cities that can't support a pro team, let alone a pro hockey team ... Columbus, I'm looking at you.)

I thought Columbus was the one that DID support its team. n/m

 

If the player salaries never got so stupid in the first place, I'd say Winnipeg, Halifax, and Quebec City could've easily supported teams.

[nl5xsk1 0]

Columbus is still riding the "weee, we have a new team" buzz. If they are still a 'middle-of-the-pack, eliminated in the first round of the playoffs' team in 5 years or so, then I think they'll have issues. I just as easily could have put Carolina in that spot, or Anaheim, or Atlanta. No disrepect meant to the true Blue Jacket fans, either one of them. (and out of the newest teams, I think Nashville & Minnesota bring the support more than Columbus or Atlanta.)

 

And, Czech, didn't the Jets & Nords move before the salary explosion? I thought that they moved due to old arenas and small markets more than for actual salary reasons. I might be wrong, though.

[The Czech Republic 0]

And, Czech, didn't the Jets & Nords move before the salary explosion?  I thought that they moved due to old arenas and small markets more than for actual salary reasons.  I might be wrong, though.

What time are we using as when salaries exploded? I always figured mid 90s, which is when the WHA 3 all left their towns. Except for the Minnesota North Stars, who just started sucking so badly that everyone quit going to games, they all moved because of salary issues and new arena issues.

 

My favorite move of all in its utter futility would be moving the Hartford Whalers. Apparently, selling 9,000 season tickets for the 13,000-seat Civic Center wasn't good enough. So they said.

 

Also, they asked the state of Connecticut to build them a brand-new rent-free arena to play in. They were literally laughed out of town, and then moved to Greensboro where they averaged 2,000 or so a night, and then moved again to Raleigh, where they got a brand-new, rent-free arena to play in, now averaging almost 10,000 a night.

 

But the real reason they moved to Raleigh was because NC State wanted a new arena to use, but they couldn't get it unless they found a major-league tenant to share it with. And that's where the Whalers came in.

[nl5xsk1 0]

Czech, you're probably right that the salary explosion and the relocation of the WHA teams happened at around the same time. I know in '91-'92 there were only something like 15 people making more than $1,000,000 but two years later there were like 30 making twice that amount. So, the salary explosion probably even happened first.

 

But I don't think the Whalers, Nordiques or Jets moved because of the average salaries, really, they moved because Bettman wanted teams in "larger markets" like Carolina, Colorado and Phoenix. Even if salaries hadn't increased, my presumption is that Bettman would have found some bullshit reason to relocate those teams.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Bettman had bullshit reasons for Nordiques and Jets moving, as the Jets always had good attendance and in their last year looked poised for a shot at having a good run at the Cup in a few years.

 

Hell, after the move the Manitoba government had announced that they had reached an tentative agreement that they would build the Jets a new stadium (which I believe was built regardless, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure I'm right), and so Manitoba nearly rioted when they heard this.

 

As for the Nordiques, they were moved as Bettman had literially said he wished for them to be in a better market as he felt the Nordiques were taking away from Montreal and vice versa. Montreal kept their team since it had more prestege. Nord fans almost rioted after Colorado Avs won the Cup the very following year.

[CanadianChris 0]

The moral, as always...

 

Bettman's an idiot. He needs to be stopped.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

Why did the NHL hire a NBA guy to run things?

 

So, the only hockey I can enjoy this season will be at the local roller hockey rink.

 

The NHL should have ended with Calgary winning the Cup not Tampa Bay.

 

And I love my Ducks.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Why did the NHL hire a NBA guy to run things?

They wanted the NBA style of advertisements and endorsement deals and stuff being thrown their way that would make the league better overall financially and improve their image. Having an NBA guy was supposed to do that or so they thought.

 

In actual real life, all Bettman has done is downgrade the product known as NHL further into obscurity and actually done a great job of burying it. Not him alone as the NHLPA has done its fair share.

[Tawren 0]

As far as when the NHL starts up again, I'll watch on TV and pay attention to it, but live games are pretty much a no for a while.

 

I am so angered by this strike. They are making MILLIONS A YEAR. They had TEN YEARS to work out a new agreement, one they could agree with. A day before the last and they aren't meeting? This is just angering me beyond belief.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Bettman had bullshit reasons for Nordiques and Jets moving, as the Jets always had good attendance and in their last year looked poised for a shot at having a good run at the Cup in a few years.

 

Hell, after the move the Manitoba government had announced that they had reached an tentative agreement that they would build the Jets a new stadium (which I believe was built regardless, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure I'm right), and so Manitoba nearly rioted when they heard this.

 

As for the Nordiques, they were moved as Bettman had literially said he wished for them to be in a better market as he felt the Nordiques were taking away from Montreal and vice versa. Montreal kept their team since it had more prestege. Nord fans almost rioted after Colorado Avs won the Cup the very following year.

You know what's surreal? I was reading this sports-marketing book that I found lying in my basement, it was from the early 90s. There was a chapter on the costs of building new venues, and it had listed a "Manitoba Gardens" and "Nouveau Colisee de Quebec" listed as buildings that were about to be made.

 

After reading about the NC State thing with the Whalers, I wouldn't put it past Bettman to have orchestrated the relocations out of Canada. But the question is still, "How the HELL is Raleigh a better market than Hartford?!?"

[treble 0]

Look, I'm no fan of Canadian franchises (and Hartford) leaving for southern markets, but the fact is that Winnipeg and Hartford really weren't supporting their team by buying tickets to the games.

 

Going by this site, the Jets averaged about 13,000/game in their last 4 seasons and NEVER averaged over 14,000 in their time in Winnipeg in an arena that I'm pretty sure had a capacity of about 15,000 (15,500 according to this place). They couldn't fill their relatively small building on a consistant basis, like Hartford. According to that same site, Hartford's high-water mark was just above 14,000 (14,716) and in Raleigh's it consistently been a little bit better and they've got a state-of-the-art rink to boot.

 

The Nords seem to have had the same problem, although they were closer to their 15,400 capacity.

 

I'm definitely not happy that there aren't teams in Winnipeg and Quebec City anymore, but I don't think this was completely a case of Bettman wanting to move teams to southern climates as it was him trying to make more teams finacially viable. It's probably backfired a little bit, but it's hard to argue with the success of the Avalanche and all 3 relocated WHA teams have new arenas now, something they couldn't get in their old cities.

[Lightning Flik 0]

...treble charged, he said he wished to do so. And besides, just how have those teams been financially viable? Only the Avs have been. Otherwise, the other teams haven't been.

 

Also, if you really want to get technical treb, the Avs success was built off of what Quebec HAD going for it. It could've been their success, and probably would've been as they only had to add the pieces; most of the pieces were locked in on contracts that were feesable.

 

Also, if you do realize that my Edmonton Oilers have the EXACT same building stats (almost) and attendance figures at the same time; which still have made our team a viable franchise. So I don't buy that the Jets wouldn't have been able to produce. And yes, the season after the Jets, we have higher attendance stats, but that was because that year the Edmonton Oilers refurbished their stadium for a larger crowd capacity.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

Out of the 90's relocations.......

 

- The Avs/Nordiques move was a success. Having a good team from the start has helped. The Nuggets and Rockies are so bad that I think even if the Avs slip for a few years, Denver will still be avid for the Avs. +1

 

- The Coyotes/Jets move has neither been a failure or a success. They played in a dump of an arena until last Christmas. If Gretzky and management can field a good enough team to start a buzz they'll be able to fill their new building which will determine whether or not the move was smart. The Cardinals, Suns and D-Backs are practically begging the Coyotes to make people care. +0

 

- The Hurricanes/Whalers move has NOT been a success. However, as noted above, Hartford left the Civic Center half full just about every night. We'll call this move a failure because the Whale could have easily been moved to St. Paul or Columbus and saved us from one less expansion team. Plus, we all LOVE the Whalers. -1

 

- The Stars/NorthStars move to Dallas has become a success. It was a hard sell early on (Treble can check the attendance stats) but the Stars have been good enough for awhile now to at least put hockey on the map in Texas. I think we can all agree that the Stars playing good hockey in a new arena in Texas is a good thing for the NHL (even if the ice surface sucks). Plus, Minnesota got a team. No harm no foul? +1

 

In conclusion, most of the relocations (so far) have been good for the game. All the teams have sparkly new arenas too. It sucks that the Jets, Nordiques and especially the Whalers no longer exist, but the moves were not disasters in the least.

[The Czech Republic 0]

In conclusion, most of the relocations (so far) have been good for the game. All the teams have sparkly new arenas too. It sucks that the Jets, Nordiques and especially the Whalers no longer exist, but the moves were not disasters in the least.

I've gotta disagree. Hockey in Raleigh is bad for the game. And hockey in Greensboro for those two years before the RBC Center was a hideous blemish on the game. Talk about a poorly attended small-market team.

 

I'm willing to bet that the Whalers would've been able to get a new arena sooner or later, maybe working out some deal with UConn basketball to share the building. And of COURSE we all love the Whalers: green and blue sweaters, Brass Bonanza...classic stuff. Like Tim Meadows once said on SNL when he was happy about the hockey strike ending, "The Whalers are fly, man, the Hartford Whalers are fly."

 

Seeing as Winnipeg just got a new downtown arena, I'm sure had the Jets stuck around, they would've gotten the new building. Maybe not in 1996, but somewhere along the way, before '04. Quebec City is harder to gauge, especially since I agree that the Avalanche have been a success, but the truth of the matter is that Denver was slated to get an expansion team anyway, and we could've easily had both teams in the league. But I'm sure that the 1996 Cup win would've swayed the provincial government to help the Nords out a bit.

 

I think that if the NHL hadn't gotten out of hand with player salaries, then the system would have accomodated all eight, perhaps even nine, Canadian teams. In the end, Manitoba is where people can and do play hockey, Arizona is not. New England is a hockey haven, the Mid-Atlantic belongs to college basketball. The NHL failed because they did not stay within their means.

[treble 0]

...treble charged, he said he wished to do so. And besides, just how have those teams been financially viable? Only the Avs have been. Otherwise, the other teams haven't been.

Which is why I said it backfired a little. I think the Coyotes are going to be a lot better off now, too, with their new arena. Also, I don't think it was solely a case of Bettman wanting less Canadian and more American teams as it was wanting to expand the game to new, untapped markets.

 

Also, if you really want to get technical treb, the Avs success was built off of what Quebec HAD going for it. It could've been their success, and probably would've been as they only had to add the pieces; most of the pieces were locked in on contracts that were feesable.

Doesn't really matter. The Avs have been a success on and off the ice and have a shiny new arena, which you know Bettman loves.

 

Also, if you do realize that my Edmonton Oilers have the EXACT same building stats (almost) and attendance figures at the same time; which still have made our team a viable franchise. So I don't buy that the Jets wouldn't have been able to produce. And yes, the season after the Jets, we have higher attendance stats, but that was because that year the Edmonton Oilers refurbished their stadium for a larger crowd capacity.

There you go, the Oilers (and the Flames) had their arena renovated (presumably with more luxury boxes), giving them an added boost. All 6 Canadian teams have had either a new arena built or their existing one renovated in the last 10 or so years. Quebec and Winnipeg (and Hartford, too) couldn't get this so the NHL put them in places where they could.

 

Again, I'm not happy that these teams moved, I'm just pointing out that there were reasons other than to just piss off Canada (and Hartford).

[nl5xsk1 0]

re: the Avalanche being a sucess in Denver ... no offense to anyone that's a Colorado native on this board (are there any?!?) but the Denver sports fan is the most sickening bandwagon jumper in the US. When I lived there, it was the beginning of the "Nuggets suck" era, and the team was buried on page 12 of the sports. When the Celtics are horrible, it's still front page news here in Boston; it's negative but it's still noticed. I'll fully believe in Colorado's support of the Avs when they have a decline and aren't a western powerhouse anymore. My guess is that the arena won't be anywhere near 100% capacity.

 

re: the Stars leaving Minnesota for Dallas ... absolute bullshit, and it's not made any better that a new team moved in. Along with Michigan, and maybe New England, Minnesota is one of the ultimate hockey areas in America. To take a team from there, and transplant it to Cowboy Country (the football team, not the hat-wearing rednecks) is absolute bullshit.

 

re: the Whalers leaving Hartford ... again, bullshit, but less so than the North Stars being moved. I think Bettman saw a relatively overcrowded Northeast and chose a team that had the least amount of support & the worst arena (at the time) and moved them. Hey, Gary, there's a reason why there were so many teams in the NE: we like & follow hockey here. If Hartford had built a new arena (which they probably would have) and then had the players peak at the right time (Irbe, et al that led them to their Cup appearance) then the Hartford Whalers would have had better attendance than the Hurricanes. Of that I have no doubt.

 

BTW, Happy Lockout Day Everyone. Only 12.5 hours to go, and then the lockout will begin.

[The Czech Republic 0]

re: the Whalers leaving Hartford ... again, bullshit, but less so than the North Stars being moved. I think Bettman saw a relatively overcrowded Northeast and chose a team that had the least amount of support & the worst arena (at the time) and moved them. Hey, Gary, there's a reason why there were so many teams in the NE: we like & follow hockey here. If Hartford had built a new arena (which they probably would have) and then had the players peak at the right time (Irbe, et al that led them to their Cup appearance) then the Hartford Whalers would have had better attendance than the Hurricanes. Of that I have no doubt.

If we're going by fanbase and arena quality being what keeps teams from moving...well the New York Islanders better thank Bossy, Potvin, and all the guys that won four Stanley Cups in a row, because with the crappy 90s Isles, crappy Long Island fans, and the crappiest of all, the Nassau Coliseum, the only thing that prevented the Islanders from becoming history WAS their history. I think it's the same case with the Penguins, the NHL isn't going to let Mario Lemieux's team bite the dust.

 

Like I said, undoubtedly, the Whalers and UConn would've eventually joined forces to replace the Mall.

 

Here's an interesting account of the Whalers move and their layover in Greensboro, I think you should give it a read:

How's it goin', Pete?

[nl5xsk1 0]

Czech, great link ... thanks for posting that. It's been added to the favorites, and sent out to my hockey friends. Good link.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Columbus is still riding the "weee, we have a new team" buzz. If they are still a 'middle-of-the-pack, eliminated in the first round of the playoffs' team in 5 years or so, then I think they'll have issues. I just as easily could have put Carolina in that spot, or Anaheim, or Atlanta. No disrepect meant to the true Blue Jacket fans, either one of them. (and out of the newest teams, I think Nashville & Minnesota bring the support more than Columbus or Atlanta.)

 

And, Czech, didn't the Jets & Nords move before the salary explosion? I thought that they moved due to old arenas and small markets more than for actual salary reasons. I might be wrong, though.

I think your dead wrong about Columbus. We had a minor league team here for years that did well and Nashville/Atlanta met with fan apathy in their second seasons. Columbus fans will support just about anything and the Blue Jackets have consistently drawn well for several seasons despite not being good at all.

[Red Baron 0]

Columbus is more of a hockey town than Nashville.

 

re: Colorado.

 

The only reason why the Avs got the success so quickly is by acquiring Patrick Roy. If the Nordiques was still around at the time it happened, we'll just say the Forum would be burnt down that day the deal happened. To say the team is a bunch of bandwagoners I disagree to some degree, with the talent they had in the first year, you know they were going far, just the Stanley Cup, was...well, not predictable.

 

re: Phoenix.

 

There could have been a better place for Phoenix to go (Portland, Seattle), but the team hasn't improved or degrade over time. They've been around the development area for a while. While the fan capacity is around the same, at least the fans kept the traditional white-out from Winnipeg.

 

re: Hartford.

 

I never quite understand the whole move to Carolina, where NASCAR and College basketball is the dominate sport/event. Again, I think it was poor choice to have a team there, who probably have no idea what hockey was in the first place.

 

Expansion Teams:

 

I am not knocking on the California teams. With Kings games getting good attendance, and San Jose had a 99% attendance rating, and Anaheim going on that Cinderella story, as many hockey programs are starting in California, I'd rather have a team there than anywhere else.

 

Atlanta fans, aren't showing up for games, Nashville is nothing special than the teams like Winnipeg, Quebec and Hartford, but they can still have a team? There should be only one Florida team, to get a sell out crowd. All those empty seats I see, and playoff tickets going for 20 bucks, you can't tell me that you are hurting for fans. Columbus, Minnesota, and Ottawa are the only teams I have to agree with the expansion, as well as the California teams. They are the only places, who can generate a good solid fan base, with out the much needed bandwagoners. These cities have people who support the game, instead of brushing it away.

[starvenger 0]

ESPN Page 2 has a humour article about what is being said "behind closed doors". Shockingly, it's actually funny. Sometimes...

 

Behind the NHL's closed doors

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By DJ Gallo

Special to Page 2

 

The high priests of labor and management in the NHL administered last rites to the league's collective bargaining agreement late Wednesday morning, and an announcement of its official death is expected at any minute. A lockout now is a certainty.

 

 

The death watch has been at critical mass since last Thursday, when representatives from the owners and the NHLPA failed to reach an agreement at their last-gasp negotiating meeting in Toronto.

 

 

Little was made public from that closed-door meeting, beyond both sides agreeing that zero progress was made and another negotiating session wasn't scheduled. Page 2's DJ Gallo, however, spent the day hovering outside the meeting room with his ear to the door. And he heard things -- not things, mind you, that can be attributed; and not things that he documents here verbatim. (That ain't our style, you know.) But he heard things, nonetheless.

 

 

Here's what he heard ...

 

 

"I understand all of the legal mumbo jumbo in your proposal even less than I understand what the third and fourth columns are for in the NHL win-loss standings."

 

 

"Wait, what do you mean Mario Lemieux is on your side? I thought he was on our side!"

 

 

"We have to come to an agreement. Our fans will revolt if we don't. You should have seen the tens of thousands of people protesting outside Madison Square Garden a couple of weeks ago."

"They were protesting President Bush, not the NHL, you idiot."

"Oh."

 

 

"Reject most of our demands and we'll send Todd Bertuzzi after you. Reject all of our demands and we'll send Mike Danton after you. We're not screwing around. And either way, Tie Domi is going to kick somebody's BUTT."

 

 

"Bettman, stop complaining. If you wanted to see over the table you should have brought your booster chair."

 

 

"Here's a proposal: I'll give you $1 million dollars to sleep with me."

 

 

"It doesn't matter if their name is derived from hockey or not, 'Five for Fighting' sucks."

 

 

"We understand Mr. Bettman's demand that at least one black candidate be interviewed for every available head coaching job. We just don't think it's realistic for the NHL."

 

 

"Of course the owners are in the right on this. The players have Satan on their side, for crying out loud!"

 

 

"Baseball always goes on strike and it's America's national pastime. We can't go wrong by having a lockout."

 

 

"The players' stance is firm: We will not cut our playoff beards until our demands are met."

 

 

"The NHL will go bankrupt without a salary cap. We're in such a dire financial situation that we've maxed-out all of our credit cards. We're paying 24.99-percent interest on some of them, people! It's not pretty. Those Discover Card bills are going to bury us."

 

 

"The upcoming season is on thin ice."

"Excuse me, but horrible puns aren't going to help anything."

 

 

"As we feared, advance sales are not going well for 'EA Sports NHL 2005: CBA Negotiating Extravaganza.'"

 

 

"I think we can all agree that the biggest downside of a lockout is that we'll all lose the joy of hearing the name 'Nikolai Khabibulin' throughout the fall and winter."

 

 

"Don't force us to move all of our franchises offshore to save on labor costs. We'll do it. No doubt there are Indonesians and Guatemalans or somebody who can play hockey for us a lot cheaper than you guys will."

 

 

"Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!"

 

 

"Speaking of 'lockout,' does anyone know where I can get the key to the men's bathroom? I've had a lot of coffee today ... "

 

 

"Why don't we all just admit how lucky we have it and do what's best for the fans, regardless of what each of us has to concede to get a deal done ... Nah. Just kidding!"

 

 

"Look, let's at least set a goal here. Let's agree to get a deal done before Selig decides where the Expos are moving. We ought to be able to do that, don't you think? I mean, doesn't that give us until August 2006?"

 

 

"Seriously? Jeremy Roenick paid some guy 10 grand to tell him that he shouldn't bet on there being a season this year? He couldn't figure that out for himself?"

 

 

"Whose idea was it to meet in Toronto? Couldn't we have gone to Vegas? Or at least had the meeting at a Hooters or something?"

 

 

"Eric Lindros was planning to be here today to read a statement, but he sustained a severe concussion this morning when he turned on his shower and the water hit him in the face."

 

 

"The owners need to know the players are serious about being willing to sit out the entire season. I speak for the players, and can say that they will be fine if there is a lockout. Each and every player has made millions of dollars and is financially comfortable beyond their wildest dreams. Crap -- I probably shouldn't have said that."

 

 

"End one more sentence with 'Eh' and I'm coming over this table!"

 

 

"Just as some people thought that underlying racism made so many people root against the all-black USA men's Olympic basketball team in Athens, we think it was racism that made so many people apathetic about the all-white U.S. hockey team in the World Cup."

 

 

"If we agree to scrap the salary cap idea, will you promise that Federov or Bure will give me Anna Kournikova's phone number?"

 

 

"Sure, we have to be mindful of the ticket-buying public. But like Brett Hull says, who gives a $#*! about the fans?"

 

 

"Okay, so we're in agreement. We'll have a lockout for the entire season, wait for every NBA player to test positive for marijuana or get arrested, and then come back and dominate the winter sports scene. And not a word about this to anyone."

I like the ones making fun of Bettman and Selig the most.

[nl5xsk1 0]

To show that there's little rhyme or reason to what I find offensive:

 

"Eric Lindros was planning to be here today to read a statement, but he sustained a severe concussion this morning when he turned on his shower and the water hit him in the face."

made me laugh.

 

 

"Reject most of our demands and we'll send Todd Bertuzzi after you. Reject all of our demands and we'll send Mike Danton after you. We're not screwing around. And either way, Tie Domi is going to kick somebody's BUTT."

was offensive to me. I might be wrong, but I don't remember a whole lot of Kobe Bryant jokes on ESPN.

[redbaron29 0]

"Sure, we have to be mindful of the ticket-buying public. But like Brett Hull says, who gives a $#*! about the fans?"

 

Oh it’s so true

 

 

At this point I guess it only needs to be made official. Kind of sad too cuz I could really use a good hockey game right now.

 

 

Oh well there is always minor league!

[the max 0]

"Bettman, stop complaining. If you wanted to see over the table you should have brought your booster chair."

 

That had me on the floor.

 

 

 

And I agree with nl5, Danton is under the gun for putting out a hit on someone (there's a lot more to the story, but I don't read on it because it makes me sick). I don't remember page 2 making light of the Kobe incident that much.

[MrRant 0]

Well at least there are 3 WHL teams here in WA to watch.

 

Which begs the question WHY THE FUCK does Seattle not have an NHL team when Western Washington supports both the Silvertips AND the Thunderbirds and also another team in the Spokane area.

[Highland 0]

Because the Canucks can barely draw as it is, and a team and Seattle would kill the franchise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another good reason for Seattle to have a team.

[starvenger 0]

And I agree with nl5, Danton is under the gun for putting out a hit on someone (there's a lot more to the story, but I don't read on it because it makes me sick). I don't remember page 2 making light of the Kobe incident that much.

Personally I think it's because espn.com considers it verboten to make light of rape (or alleged rape). Why this wouldn't apply to things like murder I've no idea (both are appalling) but that's what it seems like to me.

[lomasmoney 0]

another reason why ESPN sucks

[Guest Rrrsh]

Because the Canucks can barely draw as it is, and a team and Seattle would kill the franchise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another good reason for Seattle to have a team.

The Canucks sold out every game last year smart guy.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Rrrsh, Highland just wants a good hockey team to move to his city with great owners and smart businessmen.

 

Not like what happened with the Carolina Hurricanes.