The last great world title match

[The Amazing Rando 0]

It turned into RED vs. BLUE at the end...that's all I can remember about it.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Angle/Benoit RR03, that was f*cking awesome. ***** classic IMO.

Yup. Nothing gets better than that.

It was good, but hardly a ***** match. Probably about **** 1/4. The last great one was on the May 3rd edition of Raw, Shawn Micheals vs Chris Benoit. For me great = ****. And Micheals vs Benoit just touched ****

Angle/Benoit smoked Benoit/Michaels six ways from Sunday.

 

I don't normally dole out the old ***** ratings but Angle/Benoit is the closest I'll get in terms of WWE matches post-2000. Not much comes close to that one.

I think Angle/Austin from SS '01 comes closer to ***** then Angle/Benoit does, even with the non-ending.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Austin being a bitch and not doing the right thing keeps it from attaining ***** and even then, the ringwork, selling and psychology of Benoit/Angle was better.

[BHK 0]

Austin being a bitch and not doing the right thing keeps it from attaining ***** and even then, the ringwork, selling and psychology of Benoit/Angle was better.

The ending killed Angle/Austin. It was one of the worst endings to a world title match that I'd seen in a long time.

 

I don't think Jericho/Rock from RR has been mentioned yet. I greatly enjoyed that match.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Austin being a bitch and not doing the right thing keeps it from attaining ***** and even then, the ringwork, selling and psychology of Benoit/Angle was better.

I thought they kept the belt on Austin for the inevitable Austin/Rock unification, and then gave it to Angle at Unforgiven because of September 11th.

[Guest Ray]

The ending killed Angle/Austin. It was one of the worst endings to a world title match that I'd seen in a long time.

That's utter nonsense. The ending was actually great, and was the logical conclusion of the story being told. It fit perfectly with Austin's character and got a ton of heat on him. Angle snapping after getting screwed was also great.

 

I hate knee-jerk "bad finish!!" reactions.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Austin being a bitch and not doing the right thing keeps it from attaining ***** and even then, the ringwork, selling and psychology of Benoit/Angle was better.

I thought they kept the belt on Austin for the inevitable Austin/Rock unification, and then gave it to Angle at Unforgiven because of September 11th.

Well, Sept 11th hadn't happened as of SummerSlam so I don't know whether or not Angle would've gotten the title if it hadn't happened, though he probably still would've seeing as how Unforgiven was in Pittsburgh.

 

I don't really think that Angle or Austin came out of the match looking any better then they did when they went in. The match did well for Austins character but that's about it. Both Angle and Benoit walked out of Royal Rumble looking like a million bucks.

[Guest Ray]

I don't really think that Angle or Austin came out of the match looking any better then they did when they went in. The match did well for Austins character but that's about it.

 

You're telling me Angle surviving THREE stunners and Austin being so desperate that he has to get himself DQed to win didn't make Angle look good?

[BHK 0]

The ending killed Angle/Austin. It was one of the worst endings to a world title match that I'd seen in a long time.

That's utter nonsense. The ending was actually great, and was the logical conclusion of the story being told. It fit perfectly with Austin's character and got a ton of heat on him. Angle snapping after getting screwed was also great.

 

I hate knee-jerk "bad finish!!" reactions.

Would you care to go a little more in-depth on that? I'm actually interested as to why you think the finished worked so well.

[Guest Staravenger]

I don't really think that Angle or Austin came out of the match looking any better then they did when they went in. The match did well for Austins character but that's about it.

 

You're telling me Angle surviving THREE stunners and Austin being so desperate that he has to get himself DQed to win didn't make Angle look good?

That actually made me more of an Angle fan. His desire to win the title back to the WWF camp by being able to survive THREE Stunners (when even monsters like UT & Kane jobbed to one) was just awesome booking.

 

It wasn't that cheap of a finish, considering the feud went on...and it allowed the Milktruck incident the night after SSlam. Great moment

[Guest Ray]

Essentially, it's a comment on Austin's morals, the cunning, ruthless nature of his character, and what he's willing to do to keep his title. All throughout the match he's dangerously close to getting DQ'ed. He's trying to walk a thin line between hurting Angle and protecting the title he loves so much. He knows he'll keep the title if he gets DQ'ed. At one point the ref's yelling at him to stop and he just says "Well what are you gonna do?"

 

I don't think I've ever seen a match where the build to a DQ was done so well. It gets over Austin's paranoia, intelligence, and ruthlessness, and most importantly, his obsession to keep the title. It's the kind of thing a man like that would do. It's fantastic roleplaying and storytelling.

 

People always complain about this because Austin wouldn't "put over" Angle (which is ridiculous when he lets the guy survive three stunners and scare him into getting himself DQed), and overlook how good this is in a dramatic sense.

[Australian Pride 0]

I would have preferred a WWF referee to do the DQ'ing though, instead of Nick Patrick. It would have meant a lot more that way because it would mean that Austin had gone so far that even a WWF ref would DQ him.

[Austin3164life 0]

Austin/Angle is a masterpiece crafted by Austin. Austin holds Angle's hand throughout the whole thing and basically shows us how to build to a finish. Whoever thinks because Angle didn't win the belt the match sucks has to watch it again.

[Si82 0]

Mankind vs. Shawn Michaels from Mind Games '96, I recently rewatched this match and I found myself glued to the screen.

I'd have to agree with that choice.

 

One of the best matches ever and my choice for the last great world title match.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

The last very good title match was Benoit vs Michaels ***1/4-***1/2. With five more minutes and a clean appropriate finish it could have reached ****. About the Angle vs Benoit match it's ***-***1/4. He're my discussion with a knowledgeable poster.JHM what are your thought's and a star rating for Benoit vs Angle Royal Rumble 2003. I rated the match ***-***1/4(leaning toward's the former). I felt Angle sold horribly, they were to many suplexes, they never set up their finishers with any previous work targeting the body part's that the finisher would affect, and also all the back work from the suplexes never factored in the end. Please give me your breakdown of the match, thanks."

 

JHM: Well for what they were going for (kind of a generic Misawa vs Kobashi match) their actually wasn't enough variety of offense to pull that off. Angle only really only has 3 big impact moves (Angle Slam, Germans, Overhead Belly to Belly), Benoit has about 4 and you need a ton more then that to do Misawa vs Kobashi. I never really got into that match for alot of reasons you stated. Benoit targets the neck but its never sold so when the work is supposed to pay (the crossface) it doesn't and Angle sells that like a sleeper anyway. It does have its strengths with good workrate and it does build so its not horrible I'd rate it in the same range

[Lord of The Curry 0]

The last very good title match was Benoit vs Michaels ***1/4-***1/2. With five more minutes and a clean appropriate finish it could have reached ****. About the Angle vs Benoit match it's ***-***1/4. He're my discussion with a knowledgeable poster.JHM what are your thought's and a star rating for Benoit vs Angle Royal Rumble 2003. I rated the match ***-***1/4(leaning toward's the former). I felt Angle sold horribly, they were to many suplexes, they never set up their finishers with any previous work targeting the body part's that the finisher would affect, and also all the back work from the suplexes never factored in the end. Please give me your breakdown of the match, thanks."

 

JHM: Well for what they were going for (kind of a generic Misawa vs Kobashi match) their actually wasn't enough variety of offense to pull that off. Angle only really only has 3 big impact moves (Angle Slam, Germans, Overhead Belly to Belly), Benoit has about 4 and you need a ton more then that to do Misawa vs Kobashi. I never really got into that match for alot of reasons you stated. Benoit targets the neck but its never sold so when the work is supposed to pay (the crossface) it doesn't and Angle sells that like a sleeper anyway. It does have its strengths with good workrate and it does build so its not horrible I'd rate it in the same range

"They never set up their finishers with any previous work targeting the body part's that the finisher would affect".

 

The Crossface/Anklelock reversal sequence at the end proves this to be very much wrong.

[Guest Coffey]

Even if the match was only 31/2 stars of so...wouldn't that still be a good match? I'm missing the point....

[iggymcfly 0]

There were certainly some very good Raw title matches in the last year, (HHH/HBK, etc.), but they still felt kind of throwaway two weeks later. As far as getting a truly great world title match that still had some resonance down the road, I'd have to go back to Rock/Jericho at No Mercy in 2001.

 

They let the Rock play the heel the whole match and the crowd got into Jericho, but then they made a beautiful turn when he saw that he really couldn't get the job done without the steel chair. The thing is that a lot of times, when cheating is used, it seems like it's used instead of using a good finish for the match, i.e. Orton's stupid rollup on Jericho with the tights last week. Yet when Jericho used his finisher on the chair to pin Rock, it kind of enhanced the finish that he had to go outside the bounds of the match to actually be able to defeat him.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

The Rumble match was still a very good match and WWE MOTY candidate. The reversal sequence was the end of the match but during the body of the match they didn't try to work on the body parts that would set up their respected finishing submissions. Some of the suplexes could have worked in setting up the crossface but angle never sold the neck only his lowerback in the begining. The sharpshooter in the end would have made more sense because Angle sold the lower back after being put in the sharpshooter the same way he sold it after a couple of suplexes. After he didn't sell well at all. Also Angle never sold the cross face either. At least Benoit sold his leg in the end of the match. The best one on one Angle match is the Summer Slam carry job by Austin at ***1/2.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Austin didn't carry Angle. Angle held his own, and made the match every bit as great as Austin did.

 

Kurt Angle sold every well, did a great bladejob, and provided the intensity in the match with his suplexes and other moves(1st time he connected with the Moonsault that didnt injur anyone)

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Angle did his part also but it was Austin's smart work that made the match stand out.

[Guest Ray]

The Rumble match was still a very good match and WWE MOTY candidate. The reversal sequence was the end of the match but during the body of the match they didn't try to work on the body parts that would set up their respected finishing submissions.

THEY DON'T NEED TO.

 

Austin didn't carry Angle. Angle held his own, and made the match every bit as great as Austin did.

The latter is arguable. Austin was the one guiding the match and driving the story.

[Sideburnious 0]

Ric Flair v HHH on raw sticks out in my mind as being very good with a decent build in 1&1/2 hours prior

[Guest 2pacallyps]

They didn't build up their damn finishers. In the Unforgiven match at least Benoit worked on the shoulder to build up the crossface(shoulderbreaker, flying headbutt to the shoulder). You dont always have to build up a finisher but what's the point of doing a million suplexes if you can't sell them properly or make them matter. It's not like they never worked on other oponent's body parts to set up their submissions before. Here they choose not to do it and Angle didn't even sell the crossface at all. It's a frustrating match because the moves are pulled of crisply and the workrate is good except for the chinlock in the middle but they don't try to piece a deep match. It feels more like an average spotfest than a truly logical match. They did a poormans Kobashi vs Misawa match with many less moves less logic and horrables selling. (Angle was channeling the bad Kobashi)

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

The latter is arguable. Austin was the one guiding the match and driving the story.

Oh no doubt. I'm not denieling Austin was the one who ran the story, and controlled the flow of the match. But that's what he was suppose to do. I don't consider that carrying. Angle did what he was asked to do and did it very well.

 

Carrying is what Bret Hart did to Bulldog in Summerslam 92.

[Guest Ray]

They didn't build up their damn finishers.

They. Don't. Need. To.

 

In the Unforgiven match at least Benoit worked on the shoulder to build up the crossface(shoulderbreaker, flying headbutt to the shoulder).

Doing it in one match doesn't mean it must be done in every match.

 

You dont always have to build up a finisher but what's the point of doing a million suplexes if you can't sell them properly or make them matter.

For one, to entertain people. Secondly, they sold them well enough. Third, they mattered in that each man trying to kill the other with dozens of suplexes represented their desire to win this match- which was off the charts.

 

It's not like they never worked on other oponent's body parts to set up their submissions before.

They both tapped out to holds with no build before, so it's not necessary to build.

 

Here they choose not to do it and Angle didn't even sell the crossface at all.

Nonsense. He sold it with facials and trying as hard as he could to fight out of it at the end.

 

It's a frustrating match because the moves are pulled of crisply and the workrate is good except for the chinlock in the middle but they don't try to piece a deep match. It feels more like an average spotfest than a truly logical match. They did a poormans Kobashi vs Misawa match with many less moves less logic and horrables selling. (Angle was channeling the bad Kobashi)

The desire and passion to win the showed was certainly "deep" enough for me. And please stop stealing JHM's posts at every board you go to. Thinking for yourself would be nicer.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

That's utter nonsense. The ending was actually great, and was the logical conclusion of the story being told. It fit perfectly with Austin's character and got a ton of heat on him. Angle snapping after getting screwed was also great.

 

I hate knee-jerk "bad finish!!" reactions.

 

People invested their time, money, and emotions into a match between the two only to have it _not end_. DQ meant that "Angle won" but he "didn't win the belt" and that the feud would continue... so YTF spend your time watching something that is essentially ended with "it was all just a dream". Not satisfying at all.

 

"Utter Nonsense" - Ray.

[Guest Ray]

People invested their time, money, and emotions into a match between the two only to have it _not end_. DQ meant that "Angle won" but he "didn't win the belt" and that the feud would continue... so YTF spend your time watching something that is essentially ended with "it was all just a dream".

Yeah, can't watch anything unless it has a nice happy ending, right?

 

You spend your time watching it because it's a wonderful bit of dramatic storytelling.

 

Not satisfying at all.

It's plenty satisfying to me...

[Guest 2pacallyps]

See that bullshit Ray. All he said was it was a poor Kobashi vs Misawa match. I poste that but expanded on the reasons. The way Kobashi sells his arm in the 1/20/97 match is beautiful. Angle doesn't sell well at all. He no sells a suplex just to do his pop up superplex. They do some ribwork in the very begining but that never goes anywheret. Angle sold horrably. The first crossface he reversed into the Angle Slam never once selling the arm or shoulder that the crossface focuses on. The only time Angle sold any thing was the lower back from the sharpshooter and a suplex after that. Then he just forgets about everything and they trade suplexes like it's AJ late 90's headropping exhibition. Just because they did a million unnecesary suplexes doesn't impress me. I can watch Indy matches if I want spotfest's with no selling.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Also Ray on the first post I clearly write that one part is my opinion and the other is JHM's. Since I give the credit for his part and no where did he mention the selling of bad Kobashi or the other stuff I posted.