The "Fire Terry Francona" Thread

[Guest FrigidSoul]

The Red Sox haven't had a good manager since Joe "Magic" Morgan back in the late 80s/early 90s and quite frankly that trend needs to end. I can't believe a team with 4 former 20 game winners and an offense that set records last season all being back except for 1 player can be as mediocre as this team is right now. I place all the blame on Terry Francona.

 

1.) The man can not write up a line-up if his life depends on him. The combo of Nomar, Manny, and Ortiz last year did amazing things and yet Francona places Nomar in the 5 hole now. Nomar needs the 3-hole because he needs the protection that Manny provides. He sees more fastballs this way and benefits greatly. Ortiz can protect Manny better than Nomar can as well. I also don't understand why he continues to play Millar in the OF or McCarty at first, or whatever and leave one of our main offensive cogs on the bench. He always does this.

 

2.) Lets the players get away with murder. I've never seen a man walked on as much as Francona. I'm surprised there aren't cleat marks all over his jersey. A player does something negative and rather than deal with it he goes to the media and DEFENDS it.

 

3.) This team is too good to have the mediocre record they have. Far too much talent and also the last year for many of the players on the team. Its a win now mentality but Francona just doesn't have the know-how to get it done.

 

As a person he seems very nice, and he makes a good bench coach because he's a player's guy. That doesn't cut it as a manager though, and he has to go. Couple people I would love to see replace him.

 

1.) Willie Randolph - After Torrie signed on a 3 year extension its become quite obvious Randolph just isn't going to get a chance to manage there. Imagine if he came in and managed the Red Sox to a World Series. That would send the Red Sox/Yankees feud into a whole new stratosphere.

 

2.) Larry Dierker(I don't know if that's spelled correctly. Former Astros manager) - He got the shaft in Houston to be honest. He was fired for not winning but his teams always over achieved. Since Jimy Williams replaced him in Houston and didn't get the job done it would be humerous to see him come to Boston and get the job done.

 

Either way, a change needs to be made and made soon.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Phillies fans could have told you this when he was hired. As a matter of fact, I believe we did.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

1.) The man can not write up a line-up if his life depends on him. The combo of Nomar, Manny, and Ortiz last year did amazing things and yet Francona places Nomar in the 5 hole now. Nomar needs the 3-hole because he needs the protection that Manny provides. He sees more fastballs this way and benefits greatly. Ortiz can protect Manny better than Nomar can as well. I also don't understand why he continues to play Millar in the OF or McCarty at first, or whatever and leave one of our main offensive cogs on the bench. He always does this.

 

Quite a few people have studied lineups, and none of them have found any evidence that lineup construction has much of an effect on a team's overall offense.

[Guest Anglesault]

I really like the job Terry has done up there. Boston has had some real doozies over the last decade or so, but I don't think I can recall anyone quite as useless as Francona.

 

That includes Grady.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Jeez, just cause the Sox don't sport a perfect record doesn't mean we need to can the guy. The Sox are 51-43(.543%). That W% is bested by only 4 other teams in the whole American League, 3 of which lead their division. Only 8 teams in all of Major League Baseball sport a better W% then the Boston Red Sox. Is he the best manager ever? Of course not and probably mediocre at best however to think that the Red Sox are "mediocre" as a team is laughable and that's coming from a Sox fan.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

I didn't say the team is mediocre, I said their play has been mediocre. Really, Terry doesn't know how to light a fire under the ass when needed. Its sad but with today's athletes you have to actually do that. I'm not a fan of the man keeping his job at all.

[Guest GreatOne]

Ah baseball, where it's NEVER the players' fault for mediocre play........

[the max 0]

It is to a point, but a great manager gets his players around it.

[Cartman 0]

I'm willing to bet alot that if they didn't get retarded and fire Grady Little this team would be in first place right now.

 

No offense to the yankees, but this team is WAY better than they are playing right now. Alot of that had to do with the fact that grady had them under control and had ALL their respect.

 

Francona is nothing more than a "yes man" for this incompetent management. Any owners/GM that listens to the local talk radio and reacts accordingly should be banned from sports.

[Guest GreatOne]

It is to a point, but a great manager gets his players around it.

No 'is to a point' about it. Terry Francona isn't the one who goes out and executes (or doesn't in this case). Plus he isn't the one taking up a good chunk of the payroll........

 

And how the hell is it Francona's fault if Nomar or Manny kill a rally by going after a bouncer on 2-2?

[Guest Nelly's Bandaid]

To me this falls under the 'be careful what you wish for'. When you fire a manager based on a decision that could of easily gone either way and made him a 'hated man' or 'legendary manager' after a season like that your basically asking to backpeddle.

 

Personally I had a feeling this would happen ever since the backlash, it was a decision any manager with faith in his ace would make, and yet he was made out to be totally incompitent because of it.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Personally I had a feeling this would happen ever since the backlash, it was a decision any manager with faith in his ace would make, and yet he was made out to be totally incompitent because of it.

 

When I'm literally screaming at the tv, "Take Pedro Out!", I tend to second guess that move. I felt he was lucky to make it through the seventh inning, let alone slog through the 8th.

[therealworldschampion 0]

Ah man, ol' Tito Francona strikes again.

[Guest Nelly's Bandaid]

"When I'm literally screaming at the tv, "Take Pedro Out!", I tend to second guess that move. I felt he was lucky to make it through the seventh inning, let alone slog through the 8th. "

 

Still, that's there ace, the guy there supposed to rely on in that situation, if he makes his outs he's one of the greatest pitchers ever and Little is a great manager who knows his players. I would rather the manager of my team show confidence in our ace, especially in that position.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

You really need to learn how to use the quote function.

 

Anyways, Pedro stuggled to get out of the 7th inning of that game and had about 100 pitches after it. He should have never started the 8th.

[the max 0]

He showed enough confidence in him by letting him go 7.

 

Timlin had been awesome in the postseason, and would have likely given to Williamson in the 9th. I'm more comfortable with that than a tired ace who was over 115 pitches at that point, had SHOWN he was tired and not as effective. As it is, I was not comfortable with either situation, but with stakes that high, that's not the time you stick with a tired pitcher. I don't care who was on the mound.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Still, that's there ace, the guy there supposed to rely on in that situation, if he makes the out he's one of the greatest pitchers ever and Little is a great manager who knows his players. I would rather the manager of my team show confidence in our ace, especially in that position.

 

Ace or no ace, ballplayers are human, and managers need to recognize that. Sooner or later, blind faith in some kind of faceless aura catches up with you. Pedro Martinez gave up three consecutive hits in the seventh inning, one of which was a home run. He had shown that he was not shutting down the Yankees, and there was no reason to show confidence in him. Especially since Mike Timlin, Alan Embree, Bronson Arroyo, and Scott Williamson had all pitched well that series. All were better options at that point.

 

Also keep in mind that while Grady Little showed blind faith in his ace, another manager did not. Another manager recognized the game situation, the seriousness of the game, and the need to use his best available pitcher. Another manager had a future Hall of Fame pitcher on the mound, in possibly his last game ever. Joe Torre pulled his ace, Roger Clemens, off the mound after just three innings and change. This same manager pitched his closer for three innings that night, while Little kept Scott Williamson waiting for a save situation which never arrived.

 

Blind faith in your ace is not smart management.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I'd fault him less for having faith and more for listening to Pedro. Of COURSE he'll say he can stay in and beat New York. That doesn't mean he can do it.

[Cartman 0]

...and yet if Timlin came in and blew the game, Grady gets fired anyways for taking out the "best pitcher in baseball" in that situation. Boston fans and Media would make sure of it I promise you.

[Guest The Winter Of My Discontent]

The Red Sox should make a pitch for Cito Castan.

 

But seriously. Its clear the job Francona is doing ain't working. He isn't the only problem on this squad though. I just can't see the Sox doing anything with their current roster, and especially considering they'll be competeing with the A's, Angels, and Rangers for the last Wild Card. Really, do you think they'll dream of catching the Yanks?

[Guest FrigidSoul]

Call me crazy but I think if the Rangers actually make a run for a pitcher they could win the west. They have the players in the minors to aquire Randy Johnson if they wanted, and he might be willing to move two states over.

 

With that offense and his arm he's deffinately be guarenteed to 300 victories.

 

BTW, where is Cito Gasten now? Is he an "advanced scout" or just sitting at home now?

[Guest The Winter Of My Discontent]

Call me crazy but I think if the Rangers actually make a run for a pitcher they could win the west. They have the players in the minors to aquire Randy Johnson if they wanted, and he might be willing to move two states over.

 

With that offense and his arm he's deffinately be guarenteed to 300 victories.

 

BTW, where is Cito Gasten now? Is he an "advanced scout" or just sitting at home now?

He had a front office job of sorts with the Jays a few years back, but I think he was let go...or quit.

 

I think the A's are one pitcher or power hitting outfiedler away from exploding. Clearly Redman isn't working out, and Zito is having some confidence issues. If Hudson does not return soon, we may have to consider this season a write-off.

[the max 0]

...and yet if Timlin came in and blew the game, Grady gets fired anyways for taking out the "best pitcher in baseball" in that situation. Boston fans and Media would make sure of it I promise you.

I saw that Pedro was tired. I saw Timlin warming. I put 2 and 2 together. Pedro had gotten them within 5 outs of the World Series, I was happy enough with that.

[Dr. Tom 0]

I think there's little doubt Pedro should have come out of the game. Of course he's going to say he can still get it done, and only a fool would listen to him in that situation. I remember seeing an article about how Pedro's numbers like ERA and WHIP shoot into the stratosphere after he hits 100 pitches. Joe Torre clearly outmanaged Grady Little in that game, despite the fact that Little had the advantage on the field for most of the 9 innings.

[the max 0]

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/031020.html

 

"Over the past three days, I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering why Grady didn't take Pedro out (I know, I know, hard to believe). Well, after six innings, Pedro had thrown 79 pitches. In the seventh inning, which he barely escaped, Pedro was up to 99. And he wasted another 16 with the Johnson and Jeter at-bats, which culminated in Jeter's drive over Nixon's head.

 

At that point, he was up to 115 pitches. Pedro started 29 games this season ... you know how many times he threw more than 115 pitches? Five. According to Peter Gammons, opponents batted .370 against him after he hit that 100-pitch mark this season. He had also thrown 328 pitches in his past three starts. And he was pitching in the most important non-World Series game of all time, on the road, in a stadium where fans were yelling terrible things at him from the moment he started warming up, a game where 115 pitches probably felt like 140.

 

Knowing all of this, and knowing that his bullpen had been unbelievable in the postseason, Grady left him in because Pedro professed that he wanted to stay in the game. Well, what else was he going to say? If he says "Yes, take me out of the game," and Embree and Timlin blow the lead, then Pedro gets skewered by the local press. That's why you have managers -- you hire them to make decisions like that one. And that's why Joe Torre is Joe Torre, and that's why Grady Little is Grady Little."

[Guest GreatOne]

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/031020.html

 

"Over the past three days, I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering why Grady didn't take Pedro out (I know, I know, hard to believe). Well, after six innings, Pedro had thrown 79 pitches. In the seventh inning, which he barely escaped, Pedro was up to 99. And he wasted another 16 with the Johnson and Jeter at-bats, which culminated in Jeter's drive over Nixon's head.

 

At that point, he was up to 115 pitches. Pedro started 29 games this season ... you know how many times he threw more than 115 pitches? Five. According to Peter Gammons, opponents batted .370 against him after he hit that 100-pitch mark this season. He had also thrown 328 pitches in his past three starts. And he was pitching in the most important non-World Series game of all time, on the road, in a stadium where fans were yelling terrible things at him from the moment he started warming up, a game where 115 pitches probably felt like 140.

 

Knowing all of this, and knowing that his bullpen had been unbelievable in the postseason, Grady left him in because Pedro professed that he wanted to stay in the game. Well, what else was he going to say? If he says "Yes, take me out of the game," and Embree and Timlin blow the lead, then Pedro gets skewered by the local press. That's why you have managers -- you hire them to make decisions like that one. And that's why Joe Torre is Joe Torre, and that's why Grady Little is Grady Little."

I'd say it's more like why the Red Sox are the Red Sox. Don't bring up those 115+ pitches numbers to Pedro, he might drill you in the ass for daring to impede him from getting a $20 million per year contract in the offseason Bill.

 

1)Whose fault is it that Pedro throws so many pitches? What, have Jimy Williams, Joe Kerrigan, Grady Little, and Terry Francona been having him go out and hit the leadoff batters in the first two innings just to prove a point, "I'M THE MIGHTY PEDRO!!!!'?

 

2)Because every Mariner fan who agonized over Arthur Rhodes pissing our chance at the Series away THREE TIMES knows that bringing in a career mediocre reliever on a hot streak in the postseason in to protect a lead at Yankee Stadium in the eighth is money in the bank!

 

3)Even Timlin stood up for Little when he got fired and said he made the right move.

 

This is why you NEVER let Red Sox fanboys write a column--if you're expecting logic anyway..........

[the max 0]

I'd say it's more like why the Red Sox are the Red Sox. Don't bring up those 115+ pitches numbers to Pedro, he might drill you in the ass for daring to impede him from getting a $20 million per year contract in the offseason Bill.

I don't care what Pedro thinks, the numbers don't lie.

 

1)Whose fault is it that Pedro throws so many pitches? What, have Jimy Williams, Joe Kerrigan, Grady Little, and Terry Francona been having him go out and hit the leadoff batters in the first two innings just to prove a point, "I'M THE MIGHTY PEDRO!!!!'?

 

No, they haven't, but Pedro pitches inside and will occasionally hit a guy. What does that have to do with pitch counts?

 

2)Because every Mariner fan who agonized over Arthur Rhodes pissing our chance at the Series away THREE TIMES knows that bringing in a career mediocre reliever on a hot streak in the postseason in to protect a lead at Yankee Stadium in the eighth is money in the bank!

 

Except that Timlin, Williamson, and Embree had pitched in the playoffs well enough to deserve the shot over an obviously tired pitcher. I don't deny that Pedro is an ace, but the fact remains that he was tired. You don't leave a tired, ineffective pitcher in in the biggest non-World Series game for the club in some time.

 

3)Even Timlin stood up for Little when he got fired and said he made the right move.

 

Right. And that's his opinion to have. I disagree with it.

 

This is why you NEVER let Red Sox fanboys write a column--if you're expecting logic anyway....

 

Why not? He makes very good points.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

2)Because every Mariner fan who agonized over Arthur Rhodes pissing our chance at the Series away THREE TIMES knows that bringing in a career mediocre reliever on a hot streak in the postseason in to protect a lead at Yankee Stadium in the eighth is money in the bank!

 

Three runs with two innings to go. A reliever with less than a 4.50 ERA will nail that down. Timlin's career ERA is 3.56. He's got a 3.03 ERA in 29 2/3 IP. Alan Embree has a 4.41 career ERA, and a 1.29 career postseason ERA. Scott Williamson has a 3.13 career ERA, and his postseason ERA is 1.12 in 8 postseason innings. There are three proven postseason relievers for you.

 

3)Even Timlin stood up for Little when he got fired and said he made the right move.

 

Because most players are skilled in media control, and know the right, uncontroversial things to say.

 

Seriously, is there a rational reason for leaving Martinez in? Perhaps a magical pixie that makes him less tired because he's an ace?

[Guest GreatOne]

OK how bout the fact he'd gotten two out?

 

How bout the fact he'd gotten two strikes on every hitter he faced? And he was ahead on a couple of those?

 

Gee so I guess we're in agreement that Josh Beckett, with no experience in the playoffs othan the Marlins other 2003 playoff games, OWNS Pedro since he hurled a complete game win just three days after pitching eight innings?

 

Little took a gamble that Pedro would actually, you know, STEP UP and become that "next level" pitcher and get that last out. It didn't happen, but guess what, just cause Timlin or Embree have some "magical pixie" naked supermodel attractive stats (keep in mind most of these came against a team that has ALCS in their name, yet they can't spell it--Athletics) doesn't mean they'll slam the door either. Arthur Rhodes had a sub-2.5 ERA in his first two years as a Mariner, helluva lotta good THAT did in his three outings.

 

The fact that Pedro doesn't get more heat for the sorry current state of the Red Sox (who lead the M's in the season series thanks solely to Joel Piniero) is an indictment of "Red Sox fanboys". Want 20 mil Pedro? Fine tell me which important games you've won in the last five years. Oops I turned it from a 'Fire Terry' thread to a 'Pedro Martinez: is he as good as he thinks?' thread. I'll try to stop doing that

[The Czech Republic 0]

Want 20 mil Pedro? Fine tell me which important games you've won in the last five years.

Oh I'd pay Pedro 20 million if it was up to me. Because if I didn't...he would kill me.