2004 WON HOF inductees

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

End of story. Kurt Angle's an AWESOME wrestler. But so was, say, Ricky Steamboat. Neither belong in a wrestling "Hall of Fame" because neither did anything to warrant it.

 

Have a great wrestling style? Check.

Put on great matches? Check.

Do so and constantly ADD business to a growing wrestling company and increase their "status" to a bigger audience? NOPE.

 

So now Angle, Luger, HHH, and Jericho are on Steamboat's level? And Steamboat didn't have a HOF career?

 

Wrestling style - Steamboat leagues ahead of Angle.

 

Great matches - Steamboat > Angle x10

 

Add business to a company... - I would actually say that both did, but moreso Steamboat's program with Flair in 89 than anything Angle did.

 

Anyway, I just don't think that's a good comparison at all.

[Guest Loss]

Steamboat is probably the closest to an HOF candidate out of the Luger/HHH/Angle list. He was never a particularly strong draw on a national level, but he drew well against Flair in Mid Atlantic and was an outstanding worker. What keeps Steamboat from being a legend in my mind is that he often times took large breaks from the business. I understand his reasons for doing so and even respect him for it, but he was ready to become a superstar after Wrestlemania III, and he never quite made it to that level.

 

Steamboat's definitely a stronger candidate than Luger, HHH or Angle. By far.

[Guest Staravenger]

Awesome - no one.

Great -Wrestlers who can adapt to most styles.

Good - Can carry his own, but can have great matches with better workers.

Exceptional - Consistantly has decent matches, but nothing that stands out.

Poor/Bad - Short and Sweet: Sucks.

 

That's not the definition of exceptional.

OK, Average. I hate trying to think of words between Good and Bad because it just comes off half-assed. Just an opinion though on how I rank.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

You don't know how the Hall of Fame was started

You mean Meltzer and John Williams flying to Japan and brainstorming? Yeah, auspicious beginnings.

Talking about John Williams over at tOA he responded to drdrainoscott's first post in this thread.

 

Feel free to respond to his post at tOA if you want to.

Well he pretty much put me in my place there...

[strummer 0]

End of story. Kurt Angle's an AWESOME wrestler. But so was, say, Ricky Steamboat. Neither belong in a wrestling "Hall of Fame" because neither did anything to warrant it.

 

Have a great wrestling style? Check.

Put on great matches? Check.

Do so and constantly ADD business to a growing wrestling company and increase their "status" to a bigger audience? NOPE.

 

So now Angle, Luger, HHH, and Jericho are on Steamboat's level? And Steamboat didn't have a HOF career?

 

Wrestling style - Steamboat leagues ahead of Angle.

 

Great matches - Steamboat > Angle x10

 

Add business to a company... - I would actually say that both did, but moreso Steamboat's program with Flair in 89 than anything Angle did.

 

Anyway, I just don't think that's a good comparison at all.

The Flair/Steamboat 89 program did not draw at all. They did better business in their program 10 years earlier.

[Hektik 0]

In terms of whats going on in Pro wrestling & MMA, or their history, I trust Meltzer more than anybody else. I can't say the same for his rating of matches (or some times wrestlers). Take a look at a quote he wrote earlier this year:

 

"Still, he (Angle) and Lesnar came one botched shooting star press away from being in consideration for the best match in Mania History."

 

I do think it is wrong for Angle to get in ahead of other wrestlers, particularly Eddy Guerrero. Benoit got in because of his wrestling ability. I have always stated that Eddy on his best day is better than Benoit on his best day. Eddy has always been overlooked in terms of workrate. When you look at his career and the family he came from, he is more deserving than Angle and should have made it this year.

 

Take a look at the link and tell me Eddy doesn't deserve to be in the WON HOF ahead of Angle.

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...topic=50565&hl=

[Guest MikeSC]

I don't know about Luger............

Luger's not a HOFer. Nowhere close. But Luger was a bigger draw and had more main event longevity than Angle.

Ummm, Luger never drew a dime in his life.

-=Mike

Angle has? And yes, Luger has the rep for never having drawn, but his PPV buys record is really good -- more than Foley, Bret or Michaels.

No, Angle hasn't either -- but his body of work is MUCH more solid than Luger's. If you can't draw, you need something to fall back on. Luger didn't really change any aspect of the business, while Angle re-opened it for amateurs.

 

And Luger, himself, did not draw. Luger was piggy-backed by Ric Flair --- and later, by a white-hot nWo.

 

As Cornette once said: Luger v Flair drew. Sting v Flair drew. Luger v Sting didn't draw dick. It's easy to see who did the drawing.

-=Mike

[Guest Ray]

"Still, he (Angle) and Lesnar came one botched shooting star press away from being in consideration for the best match in Mania History."

Wow, that is one ridiculous statement right there.

 

Dave needs to get out his Mania 10 tape and watch Bret vs Owen a few times.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Lesnar/Angle wasn't the best match on the CARD, much less "in history". Shut up, Geeky Dave. I can name at least 7-10 matches off-hand that were better.

[Mecha Mummy 0]

To me, Ultimo Dragon has HOFer written on him but I want to wait to see how his students do before I'd feel comfortable voting for him.

 

Could you elaborate, please? I'd say the Dragon Gate guys are doing fine. Or are you referring to the students post-DG/Toryumon split?

[Sass 0]

To me, Ultimo Dragon has HOFer written on him but I want to wait to see how his students do before I'd feel comfortable voting for him.

 

Could you elaborate, please? I'd say the Dragon Gate guys are doing fine. Or are you referring to the students post-DG/Toryumon split?

I'd like to see if the guys develop more and move on to somewhere else like New Japan or All Japan and how they do there. If the guys like CIMA and Dragon Kid find prolonged success outside of Dragon Gate's then Ultimo did something right when he trained those guys and that's a good reflection of him as a trainer. Even trainer's in wrestling can be considered HOFer's.

[stahl 0]

I don't know why some of you guys are getting all pissy over Angle being included. It isn't like Angle was a shoe in. The man needed 105 votes to get in and guess how many he got? 105. The man JUST BARELY got in, it's not like he got 127 votes and was at the top of the ballot. Hunter only got 2 votes less then Angle and should get in next year.

 

I don't know why you guys are all "fuck dave this, fuck meltzer that". Don't blame him and its foolish to say that he influences the hall when he doesnt. He gives facts and figures and the people on the ballots are not tools that can't think for themselves when voting.

[Guest Staravenger]

I'm sure he had no influence in Bob Backlund not being in the HOF until this year.

[Sass 0]

I don't know why some of you guys are getting all pissy over Angle being included.  It isn't like Angle was a shoe in.  The man needed 105 votes to get in and guess how many he got?  105.  The man JUST BARELY got in, it's not like he got 127 votes and was at the top of the ballot.  Hunter only got 2 votes less then Angle and should get in next year.

It was harder to get into the HOF a couple years ago. Since then, more ballots have been given to people with little or no in-depth knowledge of wrestling history.

 

I don't know why you guys are all "fuck dave this, fuck meltzer that".

 

I already explained why I said that and how my comments were meant to be taken.

 

Don't blame him and its foolish to say that he influences the hall when he doesnt.  He gives facts and figures and the people on the ballots are not tools that can't think for themselves when voting.

 

You wouldn't happen to be a WON voter would you?

 

Aja Kong needs your vote.

 

Meltzer having no influence on voters is mularkey considering that most readers knowledge about wrestling has come from reading his work since there's not many other strong information outlets like his.

[stahl 0]

It was harder to get into the HOF a couple years ago. Since then, more ballots have been given to people with little or no in-depth knowledge of wrestling history.

 

And how do you know this? Name everyone who votes?

 

 

 

 

 

Meltzer having no influence on voters is mularkey considering that most readers knowledge about wrestling has come from reading his work since there's not many other strong information outlets like his.

 

So you are saying that if I wrote a newsletter and presented facts and figures, that if you voted for my hall of fame, that your vote wouldn't be credible because I influence you?

 

You have a mind of your own don't you? I think so.

 

Which is why I think its mularkey to insinuate that most readers knowledge about wrestling has come from his work. The fact of the matter is that the voters are wrestlers in the business themselves, and journalists that have a vast knowledge of the business. Casual fans and readers DO NOT vote on this. This is a vote done by credible people within the business. So the idea that people only vote based on Meltzers opinions aren't true.

 

*EDIT* Im actually reading my copy of the observer right now and Dave says that the majority of Angles supporters came from active wrestlers and retired legends.

 

Triple H did better on current wrestlers but didn't have the support of retired legends which is why he came just shy most likely.

[Guest Contentious C]

It was harder to get into the HOF a couple years ago. Since then, more ballots have been given to people with little or no in-depth knowledge of wrestling history.

 

And how do you know this? Name everyone who votes?

It's a known fact that Todd Martin and Dan Wahlers both vote for the HOF. They've admitted as much in the last 2 years. Both are occasional columnists for WON's website, which essentially means they get ballots simply because they mow Dave's lawn. Both Martin and Wahlers, despite their positions on the website, are *far* closer to 'casual fans' than they are to 'insiders'. If you've ever had the displeasure of trying to discuss current-day Japan or 90s U.S. stuff or the merits/pitfalls of Shawn Michaels' HOF candidacy with either of them, you'd understand just how clueless they really are. They don't have any business even writing for Dave, let alone being handed a responsibility such as this.

 

In the future, do not make fucking retarded claims like "casual fans and readers DO NOT vote on this," when you obviously haven't found out otherwise, as some of us have.

 

As for assessing the candidacies of less current wrestlers, it's almost impossible to do so without running across Meltzer's commentaries, as Sass remarked. If you're looking for information on workers from the 00s-50s, you're going to talk to Meltzer or Steve Yohe. If you're looking for information on Luchadors who worked in the 70s and earlier, you're going to talk to Meltzer or Jose Fernandez. There just aren't very many others who have the knowledge base to discuss them (even if sometimes Meltzer's logic and follow-through is rubbish). So yes, the fact that hardly anyone voted for Bill Miller stems from the fact that Meltzer didn't pimp him nearly hard enough. Yohe's gone to the wall for him time and time again as a worthy choice, but he doesn't write the newsletter that supports the HOF, now does he?

[Guest Leon]

Is Vince McMahon a WON HOF voter?

Bret Hart?

Ric Flair?

Hogan?

Taker?

Triple H?

[Guest Loss]

I'd venture to guess that the following people probably vote in the HOF, knowing Dave Meltzer. This may or may not be right:

 

Ric Flair

Bret Hart

Jim Ross

Mick Foley

Harley Race

Ricky Steamboat

Bruno Sammartino

Raven

Chris Benoit

William Regal

Jim Cornette

Bruce Mitchell

Wade Keller

Terry Funk

 

I'd say most of those, if not all of them, are locks to have ballots.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

McMahon SOOOOOO has a ballot.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Steamboat is probably the closest to an HOF candidate out of the Luger/HHH/Angle list. He was never a particularly strong draw on a national level, but he drew well against Flair in Mid Atlantic and was an outstanding worker. What keeps Steamboat from being a legend in my mind is that he often times took large breaks from the business. I understand his reasons for doing so and even respect him for it, but he was ready to become a superstar after Wrestlemania III, and he never quite made it to that level.

 

Steamboat's definitely a stronger candidate than Luger, HHH or Angle. By far.

HHH was a national draw and carried the company from a financial standpoint through 2000 (it's best year ever) and 02-03.

 

That makes him a national draw, and one of the few guys to dominate the WWE for more than one year in a row.

[Guest Ray]

HHH was a national draw and carried the company from a financial standpoint through 2000 (it's best year ever)

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I'd venture to guess that the following people probably vote in the HOF, knowing Dave Meltzer. This may or may not be right:

 

Ric Flair

Bret Hart

Jim Ross

Mick Foley

Harley Race

Ricky Steamboat

Bruno Sammartino

Raven

Chris Benoit

William Regal

Jim Cornette

Bruce Mitchell

Wade Keller

Terry Funk

 

I'd say most of those, if not all of them, are locks to have ballots.

I'd add Superstar Billy Graham to that list.

[teke184 0]

I'd venture to guess that the following people probably vote in the HOF, knowing Dave Meltzer. This may or may not be right:

 

Ric Flair

Bret Hart

Jim Ross

Mick Foley

Harley Race

Ricky Steamboat

Bruno Sammartino

Raven

Chris Benoit

William Regal

Jim Cornette

Bruce Mitchell

Wade Keller

Terry Funk

 

I'd say most of those, if not all of them, are locks to have ballots.

I'd add Superstar Billy Graham to that list.

Mike Tenay has a ballot, as he detailed his voting on WOL some time back, and I think that Larry Matysik (misspelled, I think) has one too.

 

Larry, BTW, was a part of the St. Louis territory's office for a long time under legendary promoter Sam Mushnik.

[stahl 0]

It's a known fact that Todd Martin and Dan Wahlers both vote for the HOF. They've admitted as much in the last 2 years. Both are occasional columnists for WON's website, which essentially means they get ballots simply because they mow Dave's lawn. Both Martin and Wahlers, despite their positions on the website, are *far* closer to 'casual fans' than they are to 'insiders'. If you've ever had the displeasure of trying to discuss current-day Japan or 90s U.S. stuff or the merits/pitfalls of Shawn Michaels' HOF candidacy with either of them, you'd understand just how clueless they really are. They don't have any business even writing for Dave, let alone being handed a responsibility such as this.

 

Do because you disagree with two peoples viewpoints their vote gets discredited.

 

In the future, do not make fucking retarded claims like "casual fans and readers DO NOT vote on this," when you obviously haven't found out otherwise, as some of us have.

 

Yes, because you found out two people who aren't casual fans, even if you would like to believe they are, have ballots. You missed the boat big time. Casual fans do not vote for this, the voting is done by people within the industry, not your every day bob and joe.

 

As for assessing the candidacies of less current wrestlers, it's almost impossible to do so without running across Meltzer's commentaries, as Sass remarked. If you're looking for information on workers from the 00s-50s, you're going to talk to Meltzer or Steve Yohe.

 

That doesn't really matter because most of the guys from that era are already in the hall.

 

If you're looking for information on Luchadors who worked in the 70s and earlier, you're going to talk to Meltzer or Jose Fernandez. There just aren't very many others who have the knowledge base to discuss them (even if sometimes Meltzer's logic and follow-through is rubbish). So yes, the fact that hardly anyone voted for Bill Miller stems from the fact that Meltzer didn't pimp him nearly hard enough. Yohe's gone to the wall for him time and time again as a worthy choice, but he doesn't write the newsletter that supports the HOF, now does he?

 

Sell me on Miller. Sellouts, accomplishments, title reigns, workrate, etc.