I feel like i'm not welcome as a democrat....

[Guest MikeSC]

Bush may the cowboy hat and the smile, but he runs an incredibly secretive government. His deficit spending is almost like a liberal with hundreds of millions of dollars in NON-military alone, and he fights an invisible enemy that he perceives to be all over the globe and has spent most of his terms defending this view from critics.

 

Smells like Nixon to me.

Well considering Bush and the cowboys persona was basically one big fucking facade, complete with folding line still in his jacket when he would appear in front of the camera, "digging dirt" or "having a hoe-down" or whatever his people told him would appeal to the midwest. He is from connecticut and the entire ranch was bought for him three months before his campaign.

But the image worked...

 

I am SHOCKED at how many people in this country think that Bush is a blue collar hard workin' man who spent his entire life in Texas in an oil field

 

Usually they're the same people that make fun of Kerry for being rich, and usually feel that God appointed Bush to save us from the Demons of the Clinton years

Who are these people who believe this?

 

Can you name any?

 

Or is it simply you, still, demonizing those you don't agree with?

-=Mike

[Guest thebigjig]

Bush may the cowboy hat and the smile, but he runs an incredibly secretive government. His deficit spending is almost like a liberal with hundreds of millions of dollars in NON-military alone, and he fights an invisible enemy that he perceives to be all over the globe and has spent most of his terms defending this view from critics.

 

Smells like Nixon to me.

Well considering Bush and the cowboys persona was basically one big fucking facade, complete with folding line still in his jacket when he would appear in front of the camera, "digging dirt" or "having a hoe-down" or whatever his people told him would appeal to the midwest. He is from connecticut and the entire ranch was bought for him three months before his campaign.

But the image worked...

 

I am SHOCKED at how many people in this country think that Bush is a blue collar hard workin' man who spent his entire life in Texas in an oil field

 

Usually they're the same people that make fun of Kerry for being rich, and usually feel that God appointed Bush to save us from the Demons of the Clinton years

Who are these people who believe this?

 

Can you name any?

 

Or is it simply you, still, demonizing those you don't agree with?

-=Mike

First Baptist Church - Wichita Falls, TX (940) 723-5453

 

First Baptist Church - Iowa Park, TX (940) 592-2151

 

Those are two churches I've been to where the majority of the people tend to feel that... I remember a sermon from the IP pastor where he literally said that God had a hand in electing Mr. Bush because even when the majority of Americans voted against him, God forgave us anyway, stepped in with divine intervention, and gave us a gift that some still are ungreatful for... and the usually quiet, reserved white congregation, erupted in applause

 

You know Mike, I know that you don't want to believe that alot of people feel that way, but trust me, I've spoken to many others all across the US that have had similar experiences... a good friend of mine who just moved to Idaho got into an argument with her boyfriends mother just the other day about the exact same thing.

 

I don't demonize anyone... to demonize would be to claim these people are evil, which they obviously are not.

 

However, they are incredibly stupid, and so are you if you deny they exist

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Mike, I gotta go with jig on this one. As I said from my previous posts, I have encountered some CRAZIES that thought Clinton was the Devil. The only redeeming quality about them is that at least they were voting for the right Party. I'm just as certain that there are people this extreme on the other side, too, although I can't recall one off the top of my head. However, my better half, who deals with gutter trash all the time at her job, has told me stories that rival what has been said here. All you can do is just laugh at them and pray they get a Butterfly Ballot come November...

[Guest thebigjig]

I'm just as certain that there are people this extreme on the other side, too, although I can't recall one off the top of my head.

I lump the Bush worshipping Jesus freaks in with the insane morons on the left that compare Bush to Hitler

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Bush may be HITLER, but Kerry wants to burn books. Heh heh heh.

 

DEVELOPING...

 

The Kerry campaign calls on a publisher to 'withdraw book' written by group of veterans, claiming veterans are lying about Kerry's service in Vietnam and operating as a front organization for Bush. Kerry campaign has told Salon.com that the publisher of UNFIT FOR COMMAND is 'retailing a hoax'... 'No publisher should want to be selling books with proven falsehoods in them,' Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton tells the online mag...

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Yeah, Regnery Publishing is likely to withdraw that book.

 

Riiiiiight

[Guest MikeSC]

Yeah, Regnery Publishing is likely to withdraw that book.

 

Riiiiiight

Isn't it sad, though, that a candidate is trying to get a book suppressed?

 

Man, Disney got more heat over F 9/11 than Kerry is about this.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

And isn't it funny how a chisled VIETNAM WAR HERO is such a fucking pussy when it comes to this?

 

John Kerry did serve in Vietnam, right?...

[Guest thebigjig]

Yeah, Regnery Publishing is likely to withdraw that book.

 

Riiiiiight

Isn't it sad, though, that a candidate is trying to get a book suppressed?

 

Man, Disney got more heat over F 9/11 than Kerry is about this.

-=Mike

Oh please... if that isn't fucking stretching to make a point, then I don't know what is

 

The campaign is calling on the publiser to withdraw the book, they're not fucking doing anything major to take the books off the shelves... when a lawsuit comes up or if someone tied to the Kerry campaign actually finds a way to get the publisher to remove the books, then you'll have a point

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

The campaign is calling on the publiser to withdraw the book, they're not fucking doing anything major to take the books off the shelves...

 

Jig, I gotta go with Mike on this one (now everything is back to normal). The fact the Kerry campaign is even doing this in the first place is scary enough, imo...

[Guest MikeSC]

Yeah, Regnery Publishing is likely to withdraw that book.

 

Riiiiiight

Isn't it sad, though, that a candidate is trying to get a book suppressed?

 

Man, Disney got more heat over F 9/11 than Kerry is about this.

-=Mike

Oh please... if that isn't fucking stretching to make a point, then I don't know what is

 

The campaign is calling on the publiser to withdraw the book, they're not fucking doing anything major to take the books off the shelves... when a lawsuit comes up or if someone tied to the Kerry campaign actually finds a way to get the publisher to remove the books, then you'll have a point

And Disney decided, a year before the movie was finished, to not release it.

 

They are exceptionally comparable.

 

And Kerry is calling for it. Hard to ignore that.

-=Mike

[Justice 0]

Yeah, Regnery Publishing is likely to withdraw that book.

 

Riiiiiight

Isn't it sad, though, that a candidate is trying to get a book suppressed?

 

Man, Disney got more heat over F 9/11 than Kerry is about this.

-=Mike

Oh please... if that isn't fucking stretching to make a point, then I don't know what is

 

The campaign is calling on the publiser to withdraw the book, they're not fucking doing anything major to take the books off the shelves... when a lawsuit comes up or if someone tied to the Kerry campaign actually finds a way to get the publisher to remove the books, then you'll have a point

Jig, I think the point is that he is doing something to try and remove this. Bush and Co didn't do anything to remove F 9/11; that was Disney, and that was probably just as slanderous as this book could possibly be.

 

And the fact that they are vigourously trying to remove what would normally be considered a whacko book (God knows Bush has enough out there written about him) is just lending it more and more credibility. It's what Michael Moore wanted for F 9/11 but couldn't get.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

But Disney is in Florida.

 

Jeb Bush governs Florida.

 

You do the math...

[Guest thebigjig]

The campaign is calling on the publiser to withdraw the book, they're not fucking doing anything major to take the books off the shelves...

 

Jig, I gotta go with Mike on this one (now everything is back to normal). The fact the Kerry campaign is even doing this in the first place is scary enough, imo...

How is using rhetoric scary? The author of the book is lying, and newly released records paint a very interesting picture of the guy.

 

Washington Post

 

But somehow Joseph Wilson and Paul O'Neil are the bad guys with the agendas?

[Guest MikeSC]

But Disney is in Florida.

 

Jeb Bush governs Florida.

 

You do the math...

Disney is a tool of the elderly voter who can't read a ballot?

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

How is using rhetoric scary? The author of the book is lying, and newly released records paint a very interesting picture of the guy.

 

Washington Post

 

But somehow Joseph Wilson and Paul O'Neil are the bad guys with the agendas?

*Yawn*

 

From the people in question:

Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

 

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

 

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates-there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

 

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

 

It was not until I had left the Navy-approximately three months after I left the service-that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

 

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

 

After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later-under no hail of enemy gunfire-to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

 

Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident-the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three-a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

 

And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

 

These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Statement by Navy Veteran Van Odell, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

 

in Rebuttal to Michael Dobbs, Washington Post, August 19, 2004

 

 

A courageous, soft spoken man of the Midwest, Larry Thurlow has a heart bigger than the great plains and a commitment to truth and honesty that is boundless. He is under attack, because John Kerry is feeling the heat of truth at the hands of this honest man and others like him. 

 

The Kerry Campaign is attacking the truthfulness of this man and the Bronze Star he so richly deserves for his actions on March 13, 1969.  I was there.  I saw what happened.

 

The mine's detonation lifted PCF-3 completely out of the water just yards ahead of me. All boats commenced suppression fire in case enemy small arms fire ensued. None did.

 

All boats came to the aid of PCF-3, except one: John Kerry's boat. Kerry fled.

 

Larry Thurlow piloted his boat straight toward the mine-damaged PCF-3 from which thick, black smoke billowed. He jumped aboard and personally led damage control operations that saved the boat and rescue operations that saved the lives of badly wounded men.  Larry's leadership was in the highest traditions of the naval service. His leadership allowed the other men and boats of the mission to exit the river safely.  This single act of meritorious service -- the chief requirement of the Bronze Star -- should be honored, not ridiculed, by the Kerry campaign and its allies in the mainstream media.

 

To reiterate, only one enemy weapon was deployed that day -- the command-detonated submerged mine that disabled PCF-3. Larry Thurlow's citation contained references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire," because that was the language chosen by John Kerry who penned the spot report on the action that day.  There was no "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" received that day. John Kerry's report was fiction -- a hoax on the entire chain of command. Larry Thurlow's heroism and meritorious service, however, is real.

 

To me Larry is one of the heroes of our country.  He is a man who served his country when called and who returned home to be a productive citizen.  Larry and men like him are the strong backbone of our society. I am proud to have served with him.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Below is a statement from John O'Neill responding to Senator John Kerry's August 19, 2004, attack on The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. 

 

Mr. O'Neill is the author of Unfit for Command.

 

-----

 

The Navy did not send Republicans or Democrats to the island of An Thoi.  We are responding and dealing with something that is deeply personal - our own record and the record of our unit in Vietnam.  These are issues Senator Kerry raised and we regret that he uses ad hominem attacks instead of dealing with the actual facts.  He is doing that because he can't deal with the truth.

 

For example, for 35 years he said he claimed that one of the turning points of his life was spending Christmas Eve and Christmas illegally in Cambodia, libeling our commanders and our nation with accusations of war crimes.  That is a totally false statement because he was no where near Cambodia on Christmas Eve and Christmas day.  The Kerry campaign continues to flip flop on the Cambodia issue.       

 

In addition, Senator Kerry closed the Democratic National Convention with a story in which he claimed that five of the boats fled on March 13 after a mine went off and he came back.  His campaign is now admitting that he fled and the rest stayed.

 

Attacking our organization does not respond to the facts that occurred in Vietnam.  Senator Kerry says that he has learned to charge into an ambush in connection with this, instead he is fleeing down the river from the facts.

www.swiftvets.com

 

Funny, they actually answer the charges head-on and don't bitch about things.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

How is using rhetoric scary? The author of the book is lying, and newly released records paint a very interesting picture of the guy.

The fact the Kerry campaign is trying to silence these people through legal means. If Bush was trying to do this to one of Soros' groups, Big Media would act like the the Gestapo had arrived in the U.S.

 

I'm shocked a Presidential ticket made up of lawyers would act like this...

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Yawn...

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0820041kerry1.html

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

JTTS, quit smearing the vets by bringing up what some of them said during the war and even during the 1996 Senatorial campaign.

[Guest MikeSC]

JTTS, quit smearing the vets by bringing up what some of them said during the war and even during the 1996 Senatorial campaign.

*yawn*

 

This disproves what...exactly?

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

That these guys have changed their opinion around enough that, if they were attacking Bush, they'd probably be called Flip Floppers and lumped in with Kerry right about now?

 

Don't let the facts get in your way...

[Guest MikeSC]

That these guys have changed their opinion around enough that, if they were attacking Bush, they'd probably be called Flip Floppers and lumped in with Kerry right about now?

 

Don't let the facts get in your way...

It actually shows an absence of personal malice.

-=Mike

...Absolutely the vets should be asked about it...

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

That these guys have changed their opinion around enough that, if they were attacking Bush, they'd probably be called Flip Floppers and lumped in with Kerry right about now?

 

Don't let the facts get in your way...

It actually shows an absence of personal malice.

-=Mike

...Absolutely the vets should be asked about it...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselect...erry-vets_x.htm

 

George Elliott, who came to Kerry's defense during his 1996 Senate campaign when questions were raised about his Silver Star. Kerry received the award after beaching his boat to chase a Viet Cong guerrilla who was firing from shore. Kerry jumped ashore and killed the guerrilla. As Kerry's commander, Elliott approved the award and gave him glowing marks in fitness reports. But in an affidavit last month, Elliott said he "was never informed that (Kerry) had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back." Last week, Elliott recanted that affidavit in a statement to The Boston Globe, saying he had made "a terrible mistake." But the Swift Boat Veterans group has since issued a statement reaffirming Elliott's affidavit.

 

Elliott was not available for comment Sunday, but in an interview with USA TODAY earlier this year, he said that while he strongly disagreed with Kerry's anti-war activities, "I don't know how anyone would have taken the risks he took in combat just for the glory of running for office."

[Guest MikeSC]

Apparently, you missed the whole "They should be asked about it" line.

 

Try reading next time.

-=Mike

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Yeah, Regnery Publishing is likely to withdraw that book.

 

Riiiiiight

Isn't it sad, though, that a candidate is trying to get a book suppressed?

 

Man, Disney got more heat over F 9/11 than Kerry is about this.

-=Mike

Oh please... if that isn't fucking stretching to make a point, then I don't know what is

 

The campaign is calling on the publiser to withdraw the book, they're not fucking doing anything major to take the books off the shelves... when a lawsuit comes up or if someone tied to the Kerry campaign actually finds a way to get the publisher to remove the books, then you'll have a point

Jig, I think the point is that he is doing something to try and remove this. Bush and Co didn't do anything to remove F 9/11; that was Disney, and that was probably just as slanderous as this book could possibly be.

 

And the fact that they are vigourously trying to remove what would normally be considered a whacko book (God knows Bush has enough out there written about him) is just lending it more and more credibility. It's what Michael Moore wanted for F 9/11 but couldn't get.

I doubt that Bush and CO. COULD have done anything to suppress F-911. The wave of media surrounding the oncoming controversy was already swelling. Nothing was going to stop that movie from getting released.

 

Now Kerry and CO. wanna hide a book? Politics as usual.

[Guest MikeSC]

I doubt that Bush and CO. COULD have done anything to suppress F-911. The wave of media surrounding the oncoming controversy was already swelling. Nothing was going to stop that movie from getting released.

 

Now Kerry and CO. wanna hide a book? Politics as usual.

However, Jeb and George Bush BOTH received tons of heat for "suppressing" the movie.

-=Mike

...BTW, has Kerry condemned F 9/11?

[jesse_ewiak 0]

In 1999, St. Martin's Press published a book by author James H. Hatfield called Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President. The book, which contained allegations that then-candidate George W. Bush had used cocaine in the 1970s, received barely any media coverage -- until Hatfield's own past came into question, at which point Hatfield, not the allegations in his book, became the media's primary discussion topic during the story's short life.

 

Fortunate Son, like Unfit for Command, contained false and unverifiable claims about a presidential candidate. Fortunate Son's author, like Unfit for Command's co-authors John E. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, had serious credibility problems.

 

While the media virtually ignored Fortunate Son (other than to condemn the book and its author), the Bush campaign was quick to threaten legal action, and many in the media suggested the press had a responsibility to either ignore the book altogether or to debunk its claims. When St. Martin's eventually suspended publication and recalled the book, the Bush campaign lauded the decision as "the right thing to do."

 

Yup, good thing the Bushes don't push to get books off shelves that slander them ever.

[Guest MikeSC]

Of course, the issue is KERRY suppressing a book, not Bush. And Kerry suppressing a book with TONS of documentation behind it.

 

But, hey, straw men are fun, aren't they?

-=Mike

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

The straw-man rhetorical technique (sometimes called straw person) is the practice of refuting weaker arguments than your opponents actually offer. It is not a logical fallacy to disprove a weak argument. Rather, this fallacy lies in declaring one argument's conclusion to be wrong because of flaws in another argument.

 

It's just a coincidence that they found out that stuff on Hatfield.

[Justice 0]

In 1999, St. Martin's Press published a book by author James H. Hatfield called Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President. The book, which contained allegations that then-candidate George W. Bush had used cocaine in the 1970s, received barely any media coverage -- until Hatfield's own past came into question, at which point Hatfield, not the allegations in his book, became the media's primary discussion topic during the story's short life.

 

Fortunate Son, like Unfit for Command, contained false and unverifiable claims about a presidential candidate. Fortunate Son's author, like Unfit for Command's co-authors John E. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, had serious credibility problems.

 

While the media virtually ignored Fortunate Son (other than to condemn the book and its author), the Bush campaign was quick to threaten legal action, and many in the media suggested the press had a responsibility to either ignore the book altogether or to debunk its claims. When St. Martin's eventually suspended publication and recalled the book, the Bush campaign lauded the decision as "the right thing to do."

 

Yup, good thing the Bushes don't push to get books off shelves that slander them ever.

Point in case: How many negative books have been written about Bush? How many has he actively tried to get off the shelves?

 

Compare this to Kerry, and let's see how it compares.

 

Secondly: I haven't seen anything about Kerry's Congressional Testimony being false debunked yet. And the Cambodia thing is definitely still up there. Prove those two false, and I'll be happy.