Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted September 22, 2004 I've been watching the show as it's come out on DVD so that's why I'm posting this now. I loved the first three seasons of the show but the fourth has absolutely sucked so far. I can't think of anything they could've done worse through the first 14 episodes other than not bring Lorn back. All the characters have become unlikable for the most part except for Fred and Lorn. Everything's been completely predictable for the most part and there's been little as far as wit. Not to mention that nobody thought to call Buffy at any time during the first 14 episodes or so. The main villians have also been boring and bland for the most part. So do things manage to pick up for the last 7 or does it just suck all the way to the end? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jingus 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2004 If you didn't like the beginning, let's just say that you'll probably hate the end. The stuff with the Beast is generally thought to be the best part of the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted September 22, 2004 I liked the opening with the Beast and the thought that he was unstoppable but the fallout since went in a totally stupid direction. At least 5 or 6 times during every episode I found myself thinking it was stupid they weren't calling Buffy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobobrazil1984 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2004 i think season 4's pretty overrated too. There are patches of goodness though, but the 2nd half of the season pretty much gives up on any real good meaningful character development (except maybe conner but even then it's not very WELL EXECUTED development), instead optnig for "cool" plot plot plot happenings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted September 22, 2004 I think a big part of it is what they did with Cordelia after the fire started falling. Just crappy. Plus everyone else has just been annoying, even Lorn who I think is the best character on the show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mole 0 Report post Posted September 22, 2004 Don't listen to them, it is awesome. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 22, 2004 Well, if you're up to Release, then you understand why they picked Faith to stop Angellus rather than Buffy. FAITH (looks out the window) I'm not gonna kill him, Wesley. Angelus. (shakes her head) I don't care what you thought you sprung me for. Angel's the only one in my life who's never given up on me. There's no way I'm giving up on— WESLEY I know. That's why it had to be you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 23, 2004 Here's my feelings on the season: It starts out slow, relatively. I like Deep Down better than any other season opener in the Buffyverse. I love hallucinating Angel, especially that opening segment. That perfect, tranquil scene will play a big part in the rest of the season, and the series. Justine the prisoner. Connor getting kicked out (and that speech which you will see three seperate times in the season, including Angel's false fantasy). Lorne is great during the hallucination talking to Angel, and there's the point where Angel tries to grab Wes by the throat. Next is Ground State, a fairly good episode. I like Gwen, and I especially like Dinza, including this line: DINZA (suddenly behind Angel, grabbing his throat) Because I'd love to keep you... but you have so much more to lose. Afterwards, the next three epsiodes are kinda "ehh". House Always Wins was the best of the lot, which really springs on this question of "What does Angel fight for?" Slouching is only worthwhile for Lilah betraying Wes, and Supersymmetry for Gunn killing the professor to save Fred, another free will case. Spin the Bottle is where it picks up. Comedy on all fronts, and Wes is on fire. I really like watching young Gunn and Wes interact. Also, the Gunn/Fred/Wes triangle really picks up again, and I like how Gunn sees himself as the muscle in the group despite numerous instances where he displayed character and smarts above and beyond that generalization. Apocalypse is literally on fire, as the cogs start to come into place for Angel's ideal family, and literally fall apart in front of him as he's beat down by the Beast. The Beast is awesome, and a great build to an awesome fight. Plus, you have that moment of total fear in Lilah's eyes as she watches the rain of fire falling, a prelude to the destruction that will fall on her. Habeas Corpses is awesome, watching the Beast pull a totalpower play taking out Wolfram and Hart plus the little girl like that. Long Day's journey is pretty good. Gwen's return is much welcome, and I love how at the end the Beast pulls it off, blocking the sun out. Awakening is quite a trip, the perfect day does a whole lot towards summarizing what Angel's working towards. They pull the rug out from under at the end, which is pretty amazing the first time you see it. Soulless is an in betweener, as I love Angellus interactions with the group. Cavalry is another in betweener. The reemergence and death of Lilah are huge. Salvage is the big gun, what with Faith and all the other stuff. Salvage is spot-on an awesome episode, and that's not to say Smile Time isn't very good. Salvage has the great Wes/Lilah interaction about what is love, the Faith/Wes stuff (breaking out of jail was a big mark-out moment), Faith and the gang, Angellus toying with Faith and playing everyone, and the death of the Beast. FAITH (looks out the window) I'm not gonna kill him, Wesley. Angelus. (shakes her head) I don't care what you thought you sprung me for. Angel's the only one in my life who's never given up on me. There's no way I'm giving up on— WESLEY I know. That's why it had to be you. Release is good, especially the ending fight. I love the vertical aspect to it. I love Wes torturing the junkie earlier on. The whole "Cordy as big bad" is not so great, but I like Angellus again. As for the rest, I think it would help to see the whole thing and you start to piece together all the themes. I personally think the second half of the season is better, despite not having the Beast, because overall the story is so much more mature and thought-provoking, and the writing continues to hit the themes even stronger and better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 23, 2004 Can we merge this convo with the big thread? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted September 23, 2004 I liked the episode with Faith and Angelus reliving Angel's past. It's been the best as far as actually developing the characters a bit. Again though it makes me wonder why they didn't call Buffy and co. from the start. All in all I think Angelus was extremely boring and bland this time around. He was a lot better in Buffy season 2 and the Angel season 2 heel turn. I just don't buy the main villian though. Something about it just doesn't seem to be working for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 23, 2004 God, I loved it. He had more depth. And DB's acting was far better. Don't get me wrong, I love Buffy's Angellus just as much, but it wasn't as deep. He was very diabolical, but the acting was more one-note. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 What's with the preoccupation with calling Buffy? The Season had its low-points (Cordy taking up 80% of it and it was _low_), but how much ass do they have to show? Why didn't Buffy call Angel? Why didn't they all join forces? Well, seeing as at the time of the two shows they each had their own shit to deal with, it probably wouldn't have worked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 Why didn't he call Buffy? Why didn't Buffy call Angel to fight Adam? Why didn't Buffy call Angel to fight Glory? The First? They're two different people now, they've grown, and they have different priorities and groups to fight with. Also, season 4 as a whole takes about 2 weeks in show-time. As far as no good character development, say WHAT? It's chock full of character development. Gunn's quest to be more than muscle, Wesley re-joining the group and all the tensions, Connor and Angel's quests for family. Tons of stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted September 23, 2004 My thing with that is they were horribly out matched so you would think they would attempt to get more help for the probable end of the world. She didn't actually have to show up but they could've mentioned it. Willow eventually shows up but it left me wondering why they didn't talk to the witch about doing the spell in the first place. They also have been quick to do it in the past. I know Willow at least seems to be a quick call for certain things. And I have to say I'm still highly disturbed by the Cordy/Conner stuff and it really played a factor in me turning on the series. EDIT: Buffy has a lot more firepower on her side of things than Angel does though so she wouldn't really need his help as much as Angel might need hers. Having Spike and Willow is more than anything Angel has. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anya 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 I can deal with them not calling Buffy. But it's funny how Jasmine's spell covers all of Cali....EXCEPT sunnydale. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ravenbomb 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 given how it fits together, and how close together all of season 4 is, it's possible that Sunnydale was cut off from the rest of Cali by then. I mean, they'd only see it from the TV stations that were carrying it, and either nobody was getting those stations or nobody was watching them because they were busy getting ready to evacuate, or they were evacuating or something. Or maybe some people did see her and get under the spell and that's where they evacuated to Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 23, 2004 Hadn't most everyone abandoned Sunnydale by that point? As for Angel, who is going to turn for help? Angel's not going to, especially when he was Angellus. Wes is not, and neither would Gunn. That leaves Fred going against those guys. Where does everyone get that two-week number? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crowe 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 I thought the spell was worldwide... except Sunnydale. Blissful ignorance is obviously in play here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 Where does everyone get that two-week number? Joss said it somewhere, but basically from 7-22 it is all over a very short period of time. Hell, the Jasmine stuff doesn't even take a couple of days. EDIT: Actually, Fred running away and coming back for Angel does take about a week. But from Angel and co learning the truth to the end of the season, it is 1 day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted September 23, 2004 For me the show hasn't been the same since Holtz jumped through the portal with baby Conner. That was a great and well built up moment and everything since has been disappointing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 23, 2004 From Players, about the timeframe: CORDELIA Some time after we brought forth Angelus. GUNN That's a couple of weeks. Looks more like eight months. And as for her message, she never beamed it to the whole world. Angel caught her off. In fact, I see no reason to believe it got out of LA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dubq 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 I thought the spell was worldwide... except Sunnydale. Blissful ignorance is obviously in play here. I would've been worldwide.. but Angel stopped it in time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crowe 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 Jasmine was on a morning television talk show, surely that wouldn't only be shown in California. Unless American & Australia television is vastly different, which it possibly could be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 23, 2004 It was only "Good Morning LA" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crowe 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 Ah, gotcha. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ravenbomb 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 yeah, I thought the title was something like that, just couldn't remember what specifically Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anya 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 There's a specific quote in one of the eps that mention's its all over the state. The mayor talks to Jasmine and even the national guard is called in. It can't just be LA. Everyone starts to leave SD in Empty Places and it's fully evaquated in Touched. EP, Touched, EOD and Chosen are all in the span of 2 or 3 days. How that compares to Angel I'm not sure of, but the Jasmine arc and Home are all around the same time and end BEFORE End of Days. Everyone leaving SD is stupid. In Storyteller they close the seal and in LMPTM it's said everything has gone back to normal(well as normal as things get in SD). Two eps later it's apparently so bad everyone is leaving with absolutely no explination for how or why the seal is re-open. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted September 23, 2004 That's because Buffy S7 sucks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jericholic82 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 The more I think and watch season 4 of angel, the more I like it. I know everyone here seems to hate the beasts master (I am not going to spoil it just in case of some newbies here), but it is a good twist. I mean this season jumps all over the place and runs like a roller coaster, and just when you think you have it figured out, it all changes. I mean everything that has happened in the series so far comes into play here, now thats continuity and pangs is pretty good, I mean how can you not enjoy xander whining about his "funny syphilis" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anya 0 Report post Posted September 23, 2004 I'm guessing they haven't actually seen Pangs in years and are just assuming it sucks because they all are too much in love with Angel. Every one of the syphilis bits is funny. Nick should have got an Emmy for it. Xander: Can we come rocketing back to the part about me and my new syphilis? Anya: It'll make you blind and insane, but it won't kill you. The smallpox will. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
