Israel up to usual tactics...

[Guest MikeSC]

Jesus Christ. They act like assassinating a specific guy who is your enemy is worse than randomly blowing up busfulls of innocent civilians, including kids.

 

INXS can you in any way back up your viewpoint? Because at this point it sounds like you have no idea of what you are talking about.

What is there to back up? I don't like the idea of Israel planting bombs in other countries, okay?

But them getting buses bombed et al is just peachy?

 

I'm all FOR Israel doing that. If a country supports people who kill you, then they are an enemy.

-=Mike

[Styles 0]

My opinion on this should be expected. I think Syria should thank Israel for not turning their "country" into a sandlot, rather than just targetting a terrorist leader. (Cocaine Enthusiest, )

 

And to answer some of the questions about the US and Israel's relationship, you know I will quote more Jsource myth's (he was right that I did find the site in a google search, but leaves out that I found it a long time ago when I needed a source for an argument, bookmarked it, and use it all the time because it has such storng and numerous arguments against those who defame Israel.)

 

MYTH

 

“Israel was never believed to have any strategic value to the United States.”

 

FACT

 

In 1952, Gen. Omar Bradley, head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, believed the West required 19 divisions to defend the Middle East and that Israel could supply two. He also expected only three states to provide the West air power in Middle Eastern defense by 1955: Great Britain, Turkey and Israel. Bradley's analysis was rejected because the political echelon decided it was more important for the United States to work with Egypt, and later Iraq. It was feared that integration of Israeli forces in Western strategy would alienate the Arabs.11

 

Israel's crushing victory over the combined Arab forces in 1967 caused this view to be revised. The following year, the United States sold Israel sophisticated planes (Phantom jets) for the first time. Washington shifted its Middle East policy from seeking a balance of forces to ensuring that Israel enjoyed a qualitative edge over its enemies.

 

Israel proved its value in 1970 when the United States asked for help in bolstering King Hussein's regime. Israel's willingness to aid Amman, and movement of troops to the Jordanian border, persuaded Syria to withdraw the tanks it had sent into Jordan to support PLO forces challenging the King during "Black September."12

 

By the early 1970s it had become clear that no Arab state could or would contribute to Western defense in the Middle East. The Baghdad Pact had long ago expired, and the regimes friendly to the United States were weak compared to the anti-Western forces in Egypt, Syria and Iraq. Even after Egypt's reorientation following the signing of its peace treaty with Israel, the United States did not count on any Arab government for military assistance.

 

The Carter Administration began to implement a form of strategic cooperation (it was not referred to as such) by making Israel eligible to sell military equipment to the United States. The willingness to engage in limited, joint military endeavors was viewed by President Carter as a means of rewarding Israel for "good behavior" in peace talks with Egypt.

 

Though still reluctant to formalize the relationship, strategic cooperation became a major focus of the U.S.-Israel relationship when Ronald Reagan entered office. Before his election, Reagan had written: "Only by full appreciation of the critical role the State of Israel plays in our strategic calculus can we build the foundation for thwarting Moscow's designs on territories and resources vital to our security and our national well-being."13

 

Reagan's view culminated in the November 30, 1981, signing of a Memorandum of Understanding on "strategic cooperation." On November 29, 1983, a new agreement was signed creating the Joint Political-Military Group (JPMG) and a group to oversee security assistance, the Joint Security Assistance Planning Group (JSAP).

 

The JPMG was originally designed to discuss means of countering threats posed by increased Soviet involvement in the Middle East. It has placed increasing emphasis, however, on bilateral concerns about the proliferation of chemical weapons and ballistic missiles.

 

The JSAP was formed in response to Israel's economic crisis in the mid-1980s. It is a binational group that meets annually in Washington to examine Israel's current and future military procurement requirements. It also formulates plans for the allocation of U.S. Foreign Military Sales credits in light of current threat assessments and U.S. budgetary capabilities.

 

In 1987, Congress designated Israel as a major non-NATO ally. This law formally established Israel as an ally, and allowed its industries to compete equally with NATO countries and other close U.S. allies for contracts to produce a significant number of defense items.

 

“Since the rebirth of the State of Israel, there has been an ironclad bond between that democracy and this one.”

 

— President Ronald Reagan, September 3, 1980, address to B'nai B'rith

 

 

In April 1988, President Reagan signed another MOU encompassing all prior agreements. This agreement institutionalized the strategic relationship.

 

By the end of Reagan's term, the U.S. had prepositioned equipment in Israel, regularly held joint training exercises, began co-development of the Arrow Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile and was engaged in a host of other cooperative military endeavors.

 

Since then, U.S.-Israel strategic cooperation has continued to evolve. Today, these strategic ties are stronger than ever. Israel is now a de facto ally of the United States.

 

MYTH

 

“The United States and Israel have nothing in common.”

 

FACT

 

The U.S.-Israel relationship is based on the twin pillars of shared values and mutual interests. Given this commonality of interests and beliefs, it should not be surprising that support for Israel is one of the most pronounced and consistent foreign policy values of the American people.

 

Although Israel is geographically located in a region that is relatively undeveloped and closer to the Third World than the West, Israel has emerged in less than half a century as an advanced nation with the characteristics of Western society. This is partially attributable to the fact that a high percentage of the population came from Europe or North America and brought with them Western political and cultural norms. It is also a function of the common Judeo-Christian heritage.

 

Simultaneously, Israel is a multicultural society with people from more than 100 nations. Today, nearly half of all Israelis are Eastern or Oriental Jews who trace their origins to the ancient Jewish communities of the Islamic countries of North Africa and the Middle East.

 

While they live in a region characterized by autocracies, Israelis have a commitment to democracy no less passionate than that of Americans. All citizens of Israel, regardless of race, religion or sex, are guaranteed equality before the law and full democratic rights. Freedom of speech, assembly and press is embodied in the country’s laws and traditions. Israel’s independent judiciary vigorously upholds these rights.

 

The political system does differ from America’s — Israel’s is a parliamentary democracy — but it is still based on free elections with divergent parties. And though Israel does not have a formal "constitution," it has adopted "Basic Laws" that establish similar legal guarantees.

 

Americans have long viewed Israelis with admiration, at least partly because they see much of themselves in their pioneering spirit and struggle for independence. Like the United States, Israel is also a nation of immigrants. Despite the burden of spending nearly one-fifth of its budget on defense, it has had an extraordinary rate of economic growth for most of its history. It has also succeeded in putting most of the newcomers to work. As in America, immigrants to Israel have tried to make better lives for themselves and their children. Some have come from relatively undeveloped societies like Ethiopia or Yemen and arrived with virtually no possessions, education or training and become productive contributors to Israeli society.

 

Israelis also share Americans’ passion for education. Israelis are among the most highly educated people in the world.

 

From the beginning, Israel had a mixed economy, combining capitalism with socialism along the British model. The economic difficulties Israel has experienced — created largely in the aftermath of the 1973 Yom Kippur War by increased oil prices and the need to spend a disproportionate share of its Gross National Product on defense — have led to a gradual movement toward a free market system analogous to that of the United States. America has been a partner in this evolution.

 

In the 1980’s, attention increasingly focused on one pillar of the relationship — shared interests. This was done because of the threats to the region and because the means for strategic cooperation are more easily addressed with legislative initiatives. Despite the end of the Cold War, Israel continues to have a role to play in joint efforts to protect American interests, including close cooperation in the war on terror. Strategic cooperation has progressed to the point where a de facto alliance now exists. The hallmark of the relationship is consistency and trust: The United States knows it can count on Israel.

 

It is more difficult to devise programs that capitalize on the two nations’ shared values than their security interests; nevertheless, such programs do exist. In fact, these Shared Value Initiatives (SVIs) cover a broad range of areas such as the environment, energy, space, education, occupational safety and health. Nearly 400 American institutions in 47 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have received funds from binational programs with Israel. Little-known relationships like the Free Trade Agreement, the Cooperative Development Research Program, the Middle East Regional Cooperation Program and various memoranda of understanding with virtually every U.S. governmental agency demonstrate the depth of the special relationship. Even more important may be the broad ties between Israel and each of the individual 50 states and the District of Columbia.

 

 

MYTH

 

“The U.S. has always given Israel billions of dollars without expecting repayment.”

 

FACT

 

U.S. economic grants to Israel ended in 1959. U.S. aid to Israel from then until 1985 consisted largely of loans, which Israel repaid, and surplus commodities, which Israel bought. Israel began buying arms from the United States in 1962, but did not receive any grant military assistance until after the 1973 Yom Kippur War. As a result, Israel had to go deeply into debt to finance its economic development and arms procurement. The decision to convert military aid to grants that year was based on the prevailing view in Congress that without a strong Israel, war in the Middle East was more likely, and that the U.S. would face higher direct expenditures in such an eventuality.

 

For several years, most of Israel's economic aid went to pay off old debts. In 1984, foreign aid legislation included the Cranston Amendment (named after its Senate sponsor), which said the U.S. would provide Israel with economic assistance "not less than" the amount Israel owes the United States in annual debt service payments.

 

MYTH

 

“Israel boasts that it is the fourth strongest nation in the world, so it certainly doesn't need U.S. military assistance.”

 

FACT

 

Israel has peace treaties with only two of its neighbors. It remains technically at war with the rest of the Arab/Islamic world and several countries, notably Iran and Iraq, are openly hostile. Given the potential threats, it is a necessity that Israel continue to maintain a strong defense. Israel is a powerful country, but as the arms balance chart indicates, it is still outmanned and outgunned by its enemies, and therefore must rely on its qualitative advantage to insure it can defeat its enemies, and that can only be guaranteed by the continued purchase of the latest weapons. New tanks, missiles and planes carry high price tags, however, and Israel cannot afford what it needs on its own, so continued aid from the United States is vital to its security. Furthermore, Israel's enemies have numerous suppliers, but Israel must rely almost entirely on the United States for its hardware.

 

MYTH

 

“U.S. military aid subsidizes Israeli defense contractors at the expense of American industry.”

 

FACT

 

Contrary to popular wisdom, the United States does not simply write billion dollar checks and hand them over to Israel to spend as they like. Only about 26 percent ($555 million of $2.1 billion in 2003) of what Israel receives in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) can be spent in Israel for military procurement. The remaining 74 percent is spent in the United States to generate profits and jobs. More than 1,000 companies in 47 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program over the last several years. The figures for 2001 are below:

 

The Value of Foreign Military Financing (FMF) Orders by State10

Alabama

$15,010,584

 

Arkansas

$496,212

 

Arizona

$23,053,020

 

California

$155,969,600

 

Colorado

$33,864,588

 

Connecticut

$510,697,156

 

Delaware

$367,011

 

District of Columbia $3,609,508

Florida

$94,222,258

 

Georgia

$158,911,735

 

Iowa

$4,830

 

Idaho

$151,977

 

Illinois

$57,492,657

 

Indiana

$46,200,627

 

Kansas

$91,328

 

Kentucky

$1,539,095

 

Louisiana

$145,824

 

Massachusetts

$25,080,078

 

Maryland

$62,805,516

 

Maine

$33,201,400

 

Michigan

$67,447,234

 

Minnesota

$10,886,633

 

Missouri

$1,927,615

 

Mississippi

$2,571,630

 

Montana

$30,350

 

North Carolina

$38,944,632

 

Nebraska

$3,654

 

New Hampshire

$17,254,145

 

New Jersey

$52,750,873

 

New Mexico

$55,554

 

Nevada

$1,043,287

 

New York

$110,854,412

 

Ohio

$42,646,748

 

Oklahoma

$132,572

 

Oregon

$5,512,292

 

Pennsylvania

$11,478,193

 

Rhode Island

$841,354

 

South Carolina

$4,598,444

 

South Dakota

$4,893,179

Tennessee

$7,752,077

 

Texas

$62,854,229

 

Utah

$257,378

 

Virginia

$28,575,976

 

Vermont

$2,062,222

 

Washington

$3,844,029

 

Wisconsin

$6,407,070

 

West Virginia

$73,746

 

Wyoming

$14,500

[bob_barron 0]

You know- I was waiting for some myths/facts.

 

What took you so long??

[Special K 0]

INXS

 

You not liking Israel bombing Syria is OK. I don't agree with your view on it, but you could make a point and we'd agree to disagree.

 

You calling Israel the agressor is not a point for debate as it is FACTUALLY INCORRECT. As I asked, who broke the peace treaty? Since you seem to be unable to answer, I will give you a hint: it's not our ally, Israel.

 

The Israelis don't have prominent organizations devoted to the murder of Islamist extremists. The Islamists DO have prominent organizations devoted to the murder of EVERY Israeli.

 

The Israelis don't target innocents. Islamist extremists focus on killing as many people as possible.

 

I don't know how you can't comprehend this. Is this simply a knee-jerk reaction? Bush supports Israel, so it must be wrong! Hey, I'm the first to say I do not like Bush, but not every single thing he does is wrong.

 

I would honestly be pleased and interested to hear any valid points you would like to bring up disagreeing with what I said. Repeating that they bombed the Hamas leader does not count. As I said, it is your general disregard of Israel and referring to them as agressors and 'typical tactics' (when they typically employed the 'leaving well enough alone' tactic while the treaty was in effect) that blows my mind.

 

So, the ball's in your court.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I would honestly be pleased and interested to hear any valid points you would like to bring up disagreeing with what you said.

I hope you have some reading material with you because you're going to be here for a while...

[Styles 0]

You know- I was waiting for some myths/facts.

 

What took you so long??

Various things around campus that divert my attention between TSM postings!

[Styles 0]

I would honestly be pleased and interested to hear any valid points you would like to bring up disagreeing with what you said.

I hope you have some reading material with you because you're going to be here for a while...

If the reading material is to be shown to INXS make sure it has plenty of bright, colorful pictures...

[Guest GreatOne]

Dude what the fuck?

 

'I hate Israel planting bombs (to kill terrorists) in Syria'

 

'I have no problem with Israel planting bombs to kill terrorists in Syria'

 

Is INXS or John Kerry writing this?

 

I feel for Mick against JBL tomorrow (or Wednesday), I really do, if 'the INXS guide to international politics' is what he's going with.

[AndrewTS 0]

Democracy --- good idea.

Democracy in Middle East --- great idea

Democracy on our side in a shithole --- terrific idea.

     -=Mike

Democracy --- doesn't exist in it's true form, not even in America, we are a Republic, dumbass.

American Heritage Dictionary:

 

Democracy

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

 

Through both common use and the use by politicians, journalist, political scientists, "democracy" has been used as a catch-all term for most of the ideals of classical liberalism.

 

Never mind the fact that he never used "democracy" as a description of a particular government system, but rather in its conceptual use...but that's beside the main point.

[Guest MikeSC]

Democracy --- good idea.

Democracy in Middle East --- great idea

Democracy on our side in a shithole --- terrific idea.

    -=Mike

Democracy --- doesn't exist in it's true form, not even in America, we are a Republic, dumbass.

Which, while fascinating, could not conceivably be less relevant to the topic at hand. I know, you want to come here and make a splash by trying to make a point --- but you are really bad at it. Leave the intellect for those who possess it.

 

Try and gain some ACTUAL knowledge before attempting to look smart, 'K?

 

So, who's responsible for this fucktard, anyway?

-=Mike

[Guest INXS]

INXS

 

You not liking Israel bombing Syria is OK. I don't agree with your view on it, but you could make a point and we'd agree to disagree.

 

You calling Israel the agressor is not a point for debate as it is FACTUALLY INCORRECT. As I asked, who broke the peace treaty? Since you seem to be unable to answer, I will give you a hint: it's not our ally, Israel.

 

The Israelis don't have prominent organizations devoted to the murder of Islamist extremists. The Islamists DO have prominent organizations devoted to the murder of EVERY Israeli.

 

The Israelis don't target innocents. Islamist extremists focus on killing as many people as possible.

 

I don't know how you can't comprehend this. Is this simply a knee-jerk reaction? Bush supports Israel, so it must be wrong! Hey, I'm the first to say I do not like Bush, but not every single thing he does is wrong.

 

I would honestly be pleased and interested to hear any valid points you would like to bring up disagreeing with what I said. Repeating that they bombed the Hamas leader does not count. As I said, it is your general disregard of Israel and referring to them as agressors and 'typical tactics' (when they typically employed the 'leaving well enough alone' tactic while the treaty was in effect) that blows my mind.

 

So, the ball's in your court.

Um..to clarify, I mean that Israel are being aggressive towards Syria NOT Palestine in this instance.

 

Here's my stance on this before anyone else puts words in to my mouth. These 'Myths & Facts' that get pulled out from some neocon website don't wash with me either:

 

I don't agree with using any form of violence to achieve political aims, on BOTH sides.

 

Israel are very, very, devious and are constantly 'land grabbing' - extending their borders to suck in another part of Palestine. To do this they sometimes provoke attacks, such as initiating an attack and when someone from the Palestinian side retaliates, Israel whinge about security and grab a little more land under the guise of securing their land. It's very sneaky but it's happenning. This land grabbing obviously infuriates Palestinians - hence further attacks.

 

To purely blame one side over the other can't be done as at this stage the situation is a never ending circle of tit for tat violence.

 

Israel are supposed to be allies to America - hey, the US give enough money to Israel each year - whilst at the same time Israeli's are caught spying on US officials in Washington.

 

Let's also not forget that Ariel Sharon is a mass murderer who in 1982 slaughtered thousands upon thousands of people.

 

To sum up, i'm in the middle. It may seem that i'm anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian but i'm not; at the moment I am pointing out that Israel - and some of their policies- can be wrong and can destabalize the middle east even further. As virtually no one criticizes Israel, being in the middle, my comments are standing out.

[EricMM 0]

Lets not forget that INXS has proven to be anti-Israeli for months now

[bob_barron 0]

You do realise that the attacks always start up again because the Palestinians start them don't you?

 

Israel wouldn't do anything if they were simply left alone.

 

Slapnuts, I'm sure has some myths/facts for the rest of your points.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Yeah, Israel doesn't initiate a damn thing. It's only when the Palestinians start suicide-bombing marketplaces and throwing rocks and whatever sort of immature tactics are up their sleeves that Israel has to retaliate, and as history has proven many times, they come back with twice the firepower that they were hit with.

 

A "Hamas activist." That still gets me.

[2GOLD 0]

Someone yesterday told me, "If Israel would just quit being jerks and leave the Palestinians alone, there would be peace in that region!"

 

Can someone PLEASE tell me where people in this country are getting the stupid information that Israel is the bad guy in all of this?

[Guest GreatOne]

I got my ex-roommate to slip and admit that he was a PLO supporter a week or so back--which he instantly tried to backass his way out of. So his credibility zoomed down the road with him when he moved out (and no it wasn't for that).

[Guest BDC]

Someone yesterday told me, "If Israel would just quit being jerks and leave the Palestinians alone, there would be peace in that region!"

 

Can someone PLEASE tell me where people in this country are getting the stupid information that Israel is the bad guy in all of this?

CNN.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Someone yesterday told me, "If Israel would just quit being jerks and leave the Palestinians alone, there would be peace in that region!"

 

Can someone PLEASE tell me where people in this country are getting the stupid information that Israel is the bad guy in all of this?

The U.N. likes to take that stance quite a bit. Notice they don't bitch about the suicide bombings but jump all over Israel for anything.

[Styles 0]

Someone yesterday told me, "If Israel would just quit being jerks and leave the Palestinians alone, there would be peace in that region!"

 

Can someone PLEASE tell me where people in this country are getting the stupid information that Israel is the bad guy in all of this?

The U.N. likes to take that stance quite a bit. Notice they don't bitch about the suicide bombings but jump all over Israel for anything.

Right the many Muslim countries and sympathisers in Europe present in the UN love to push around Israel and make them seem like an outlaw nation because of prevailing anti-semitism in the world. It's harsh, but the truth.

 

Bob Barron-I can sit here all day and repost stuff from that site, but some people's heads are so dense that it's a waste of time. You can't teach a pig to sing, it won't work and it will just annoy the pig. As much as labrotory experiments gone wrong like INXS like to claim "land grabbing", and as many times as that has been disproved, they won't be satisfied. One side wants peace in a land where all their neighbors have waged wars on them since its inception, the other wants nothing less than the destruction of said state, because they can't accept it in their racist, backwards minds that there migtht even be a slivver of land amongst a giant mass, designated to the Jews, a people who have throughout time been persecuted for who they were and in search of a homeland to live in peace. They deserve to defend that homeland, and America is right in supporting them. Lord knows most of the rest of the world, would rather turn the other cheek and watch another Holocaust occur, to finish the job this time.

 

America's support of Israel is the type of foreign policy that makes me PROUD to be an American, as I see so many similarities in our past, and a similar road to our futures.

[Special K 0]

Hear, hear.