The early 2004 "classics"

[Guest Rrrsh]

Hell, I'd even go as far to say that this year's Rumble was more predictable than the 95 Rumble.

Disgustingly more predictable.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I thought it was painfully obvious at the time. Perhaps you guys were just too young.

I am purely talking about it from a marks point of view.

[Just call me Dan 0]

I don't get the lack of love for JBL/Eddie from Judgment Day this year. One of the most well booked and bloodiest brawls ever. Eddie really looked like he hated Layfield. Sick and brutal. VERY fun to watch.

[Aero 0]

I've only seen their Judgment Day match once, and I enjoyed it for the most part, but I liked the bull rope match at GAB more. That's probably in my top 5 matches for this year.

[Guest Evolution]

The bullrope match from GAB had a better ending considering they could've fucked up the finish with JBL touching the corner after Eddie instead of before Eddie, so I generally put that match above Judgment Day as well, even though Eddie's bleeding in that match is just sick.

[SamoaRowe 0]

The entire Eddie/JBL feud was majorly underrated, it's just a shame that Eddie did not win the belt back in that cage match.

 

My favorite matches of the year thus far:

 

1) Chris Benoit vs Triple H vs Shawn Michaels (WrestleMania XX)

2) Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

3) Eddie Guerrero vs JBL (Great American Bash)

4) Triple H vs Chris Benoit (Iron Man Match)

5) Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (Wrestlemania XX)

6) Paul London vs Jamie Noble (Velocity)

7) Randy Orton vs Shelton Benjamin (Bad Blood)

8) Chris Benoit vs Shawn Michaels (May, was it?)

9) Eddie Guerrero vs JBL (Judgment Day)

10) Chris Benoit vs Kane (Bad Blood)

[Promoter 0]

Who else could have won in 1995? Backlund & Owen maybe, but they lasted a combined 30 seconds. Although I will admit one of the few times I have ever been legitimately shocked in professional wrestling was in that match, when I thought Bulldog had it won. I was like, what the hell, did Shawn screwup and hit the ground? That wasn't supposed to happen. Regardless it was brutally obvious that year. There was literally nobody else that could win it once Diesel retained. At least 1996 had Diesel and the wildcard Vader. It was pretty bad too, but not as bad as 1995. Aside from the predictability of it, it was also ruined by too many jobbers (Well Dunn? Mantaur?) and by the rediculous decision to only give 60 seconds between intervals.

 

The others....

 

1999 - Vince, Austin or HHH. What really hurt this Rumble is that the first half was filled with gaps in action and a bunch of jobbers. It improves once Billy Gunn comes out. They also picked the wrong guy to win.

 

2001 - Rock or Austin. Like 1994, this was down to two guys. I think they went with the wrong choice here (a Rock win should have set up an Austin heel turn well in advance of Wrestlemania). Too much comedy makes it worse than 2000 and the wrong ending hurts it, but it still comes in at #5.

I actually thought the same thing about the finish of the '95 Rumble. It was one of those times where my smark/mark brain was confused(as I said was a fine line back then). The reason I believe the '95 Rumble was not that predictable was the reason someone stated that HBK didn't really do anything worthy in the year except turn on Diesel. I fully expected some kind of possible '94 finish and Diesel facing off against some hoss. I can see how some could see it as really obvious, but remember HBK being a headliner back then was highly unlikely. A lot of my friends stated HBK should have been the champion instead of Diesel, but we thought his size played a part in it. I mean look at his reactions at SummerSlam '95 compared to Nash's. Bret Hart was the only "small wrestler" to hold the strap and the title was taken off him rather abruptly by Backlund who got his tail whooped by Diesel. I still think HBK winning wasn't THAT obvious for this reason. I mean Vince brought back Bundy for crying out loud. I don't see where they HAD to let Shawn win the '95 Rumble when the previous year they swerved everyone with the co-winners. That year basically everyone thought Luger would win to get the rematch from SummerSlam.

 

1989 Big John Studd winning was retarded imo, but unpredictable. Studd went absolutely no where that year.

 

1990 was unpredictable and I think at the time Hogan got the win because he was jobbing the title to Warrior. If things went the way Vince wanted this would have been Hogan's last hurrah at the top, but Warrior flopped and we know it led to.....

 

1991 Hogan winning for America which I guess had to happen with Slaughter upsetting Ultimate Warrior. It set up Hogan/Slaughter. In hindsight, if the Mania stipulation happened back then I would have Hogan win and turn heel on America. THAT would have sold tickets for Mania 7 at the Coilseum.

 

1992 imo was predictable with Flair winning. Of course, we had Flair do an interview in our sports section of one of our major newspapers and he was going on about the critics going against him about winning the big title in the wwf even during his nwa days. That kind of tipped the match imo as he said being the 60 minute man doing the Rumble should be no problem. Then I see him enter at #3 and it all clicked even in my semi-mark days(mark days ended at WM 6 and still prior didn't believe every single thing).

 

1993 was horrible plain and simple. I guess Vince wanted Backlund to break the NWA guy Flair's record from the wwf record books. Yoko was a surprise as I thought it might be Savage/Hart at Mania. Again, hindsight it should have been in a passing of the torch.

 

1994 was unpredictable and set the stage for Mania very well.

 

1996 was just too obvious with all the build up with Shawn Michaels. Diesel wasn't winning anything because he JUST lost the title to Bret Hart 2 months prior. Vader just came in as well. Steve Austin just entered. I think if Hall was entered some would have picked him.

 

1999 does have a bad stain on it, but I haven't seen an alternative to what they did on the net. They used Vince Mcmahon as an out. If they allowed a wrestler to win how could they have taken him out of the main event of Mania 15 unless it should have gone to Austin to begin with. That would have been THREE years in a row Austin would have won the thing. What are the odds on that especially with Vince having hired goons to take him out? They could have done the winner putting his title shot on the line, but that is a face thing to do like HBK in 1996.

 

2001 with Rock winning and Austin turning heel sounds interesting. That might have worked. The problem though is Austin's return from injury storyline and Rock putting out Austin might turn Rock heel in some fans' eyes. Still, that could have been a real impetus for Austin turning since he was going over the edge as it was around the time. Then again, at the time a booker must think about Austin heading into Texas as heel. I think they played it safer with turning him IN Texas with hopes fans would be upset with Austin's antics. I mean he is after all the anti-hero of the generation and turning heel at the Rumble might make him more popular.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Bret Hart was the only "small wrestler" to hold the strap and the title was taken off him rather abruptly by Backlund

 

You consider holding the belt from Wrestlemania until the following Survivor Series (about 7-8 months, give or take) rather abrupt?

[Guest LooneyTune]

I think a better wording was Bob Backlund came out of nowhere to win it. Until July 1994 when he turned, Backlund wrestled maybe once on TV in the last 8 months and all of a sudden was the challenger for the title and won it on his first attempt.

[Promoter 0]

Bret Hart was the only "small wrestler" to hold the strap and the title was taken off him rather abruptly by Backlund

 

You consider holding the belt from Wrestlemania until the following Survivor Series (about 7-8 months, give or take) rather abrupt?

Yep, when you consider this in the timeframe......

 

Hulk Hogan championship reign January 1984-1988

Randy Savage championship reign March 1988-April 1989

Hulk Hogan championship reign April 1989-April 1990

Ultimate Warrior championship reign April 1990-January 1991

*was taken out of main guy spot by Hulk Hogan

Hulk Hogan championship reign March 1991-November 1991

Hulk Hogan regains the title and is stripped in December

 

Ric Flair championship reign January 1992-April 1992

*was set up as transition champion for Randy Savage

Randy Savage championship reign April 1992-September 1992

*Ultimate Warrior was once again groomed to take title at SummerSlam, but Bret pulled a jump stunt and Warrior put on a crybaby fit again

Bret Hart championship reign ended to Yokozuna who wore it basically for a year where Bret was groomed as the new top star of the company over Luger as Vince let things ride out to see who fans liked better. Bret was suppose to usher in a new era like Hulk Hogan with his title victory at WM X that had the celebration a la Hogan 1984 in Madison Square Garden.

(In Bret Hart's own words he thought Vince was joking about doing a program with Backlund and you can wonder how he felt when he was told to job). I guess Backlund winning abruptly is better suited, but it doesn't take away Bret's reign at the top was short for that time as the following face got a year with the strap. Ironically, it went back to Bret Hart from that title reign.

 

Diesel wore the title for an entire year, while drawing worse than Hart. Hart was groomed to be the new best of the new generation who was a wrestler's wrestler instead of muscle man champion like Hogan(and there was once a comparison to Bruno on the B shows that Hart made no mistakes which might have encouraged his ego). In that era, Hart's reign was very short. I think the short reign trend in the wwf only came about in 1998. HBK's title reign is a story unto itself as he probably only jobbed to Sid because the ratings and interest were getting blown away by Hogan and the nWo(who also had the long title reign during the start of the boom). Hart got that big multi-year contract and was considered the top star even though HBK was his contemporary. Vince said on OTR that he expected more out of Bret.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Hulk Hogan didn't take the title off Warrior. Warrior completely bombed as champion and to top it off refused to job to Hogan at Wrestlemania VII, so McMahon made him lose to Slaughter instead, so we got the stupid Slaughter/Hogan feud instead of the Warrior/Hogan II Match that would've drawn a lot better.

 

Bret Hart didn't "Jump" Warrior either. Warrior was suppose to turn heel and win the title at Summerslam, but got a fit because he didn't want to thrn heel, so Flair was allowed to win the title again.

[Promoter 0]

I know Hogan didn't take the title off Warrior. I was illustrating the title was taken off Warrior for Hulk Hogan with the job to Sgt. Slaughter. Warrior refusing to lose the title to Hogan is the first time I've ever heard that reasoning for not doing the rematch. From what I gathered Vince Mcmahon did not like to repeat Mania main events at the time. I did hear rumours right here in Toronto a week later he jobbed to Warrior that Hogan was going to return and retire at WM 7 with a title rematch. This was rumoured because Hogan was thinking about leaving wrestling for hollywood like The Rock currently has. As you mentioned Warrior bombed and that changed plans(put the title back on Hogan to kill time for the replacement which Hogan by 1992 didn't want to do) and Vince ran the angle with Sid at WM 8. Vince brought in Sid thinking he could replace Hogan. Anyone who watched back then could tell from the way he was being promoted before even entering.

 

When I say Bret Hart did a "jump stunt" I am talking about Bret's ultimatum to Vince Mcmahon after SummerSlam. Bret Hart was offered a contract by wcw to jump and he considered it. It was even said the conversation had Bret saying "no belt, no Bret". You are right about Warrior and Vince was put on a spot, so he agreed to Bret's demands. Bret was in a good position to do this at the time because he was the one really headlining SummerSlam with British Bulldog. Flair was not allowed to win the title because of Warrior, but because Bret going over Ric Flair would be easier to get over with fans than him going over Randy Savage. Warrior held up Vince for money again around Survivor Series where Hart was already champion. Warrior and Savage were doing the Mega-Maniacs program with Flair and Ramone. I also do know about the ear imbalance Flair had at the time, but that is not the whole story why Bret became champion and REMAINED champion. Hart being billed as the "fightingest champion" and the "best there is, was, and ever will be" over "the greatest of all-time" was not by accident although it came off like that in storylines.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Warrior didn't refuse to job to Hogan. There was never going to be Hogan v Warrior II, because it was recognized that their WM VI match, emotion aside, was pretty dire. The plan was always to transition the belt to Hogan through Slaughter. And Warrior was never going to get the belt at SSlam '92.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Warrior didn't refuse to job to Hogan. There was never going to be Hogan v Warrior II, because it was recognized that their WM VI match, emotion aside, was pretty dire. The plan was always to transition the belt to Hogan through Slaughter. And Warrior was never going to get the belt at SSlam '92.

I guess the Warrior is a liar, because the original plan was he paid Hennig & Flair to help him win the title. By not wanting to turn heel, McMahon wanted to shove him into a mid-card feud with Nailz, someone who was a worse worker than he was. Warrior left probably afraid he'll lose his heat working with such crap.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Warrior didn't refuse to job to Hogan. There was never going to be Hogan v Warrior II, because it was recognized that their WM VI match, emotion aside, was pretty dire. The plan was always to transition the belt to Hogan through Slaughter. And Warrior was never going to get the belt at SSlam '92.

I guess the Warrior is a liar, because the original plan was he paid Hennig & Flair to help him win the title. By not wanting to turn heel, McMahon wanted to shove him into a mid-card feud with Nailz, someone who was a worse worker than he was. Warrior left probably afraid he'll lose his heat working with such crap.

I don't know what Warrior was on if he said that, because that wasn't the original plan. It wasn't in any plan at all.

[Promoter 0]

Just to add some more folklore about Hogan/Warrior in 1990 and the fabled rematch that never took place is that Ric Flair was said to be in the crowd at skydome and was in talks with Vince Mcmahon. I don't know how true this is, but when you see Sting go over Flalater in the year it could mean wcw was trying to phase Flair out and he knew it, so he talked with Vince. This is complete folklore in Toronto though. He did show up a little over a year later in the wwf though with another nwa mainstay Road Warriors. I suppose Flair would have said this in his book(never read it) if it had any truth to it. It's interesting though.

 

I have my doubts Vince really believed Sgt. Slaughter vs. Hulk Hogan wwf title match would sell over 100,000 tickets for Mania 7. I believe it must have had something to do with Warrior and Hogan, but yeah there is no confirmation that the match was planned to happen at all. I suppose that goes with the rumour that Hogan was going to have his retirement match at WM 7. The roots were set up with the Earthquake program where Hogan was not the same as he was before the match with Warrior. I did hear that Warrior vs. Piper was being built up as the title match. Anyone watching back then knows that Piper was not very kind to Ultimate Warrior during his commentary. Piper was supposedly going to turn heel and challenge Warrior. Piper as we know had the hip problems shortly after SummerSlam 90.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Just to add some more folklore about Hogan/Warrior in 1990 and the fabled rematch that never took place is that Ric Flair was said to be in the crowd at skydome and was in talks with Vince Mcmahon. I don't know how true this is, but when you see Sting go over Flalater in the year it could mean wcw was trying to phase Flair out and he knew it, so he talked with Vince. This is complete folklore in Toronto though. He did show up a little over a year later in the wwf though with another nwa mainstay Road Warriors. I suppose Flair would have said this in his book(never read it) if it had any truth to it. It's interesting though.

 

I have my doubts Vince really believed Sgt. Slaughter vs. Hulk Hogan wwf title match would sell over 100,000 tickets for Mania 7. I believe it must have had something to do with Warrior and Hogan, but yeah there is no confirmation that the match was planned to happen at all. I suppose that goes with the rumour that Hogan was going to have his retirement match at WM 7. The roots were set up with the Earthquake program where Hogan was not the same as he was before the match with Warrior. I did hear that Warrior vs. Piper was being built up as the title match. Anyone watching back then knows that Piper was not very kind to Ultimate Warrior during his commentary. Piper was supposedly going to turn heel and challenge Warrior. Piper as we know had the hip problems shortly after SummerSlam 90.

I don't buy the 'Flair in Toronto' deal at all. At that time, Flair was still content to stay in WCW/NWA, and was willing to stay. Sure, that changed a year or so later, but he had no reason to negotiate with Vince at the time. He was still on top of the WCW/NWA, and he knew he'd always be on top there. With WWF, at that time, it would have been too much of a risk to jump, let alone risk being seen in the crowd at WM VI. If this was true, it would have come out long ago.

 

You doubt Vince's inflated opinion of his own ideas ? He thought for sure the Slaughter angle was hot enough to draw 100,000 fans. The fact that Slaughter and Adnan needed bulletproof vests would have convinced him the heat was strong enough. As crazy as it sounds, Vince really did think Hogan v Slaughter would draw 100,000.

 

While I'm here, I'd like to revise my earlier post. While Warrior v Hogan II was indeed tentatively planned for VII, at least at the time of VI, it was going to be face v face. Of course, that changed when Warrior bombed as a top face, and the Slaughter angle was devised. Naturally, this means Hogan was never going to retire at WM VII, regardless of how it all panned out, because he was going to get the WWF Title back, whoever he wrestled.

[Promoter 0]

You doubt Hulk Hogan's inflated ego wouldn't pass the idea of him RETIRING WITH THE BELT?

 

 

You got me with Vince's stubbornness He probably did think Sgt. Slaughter vs. Hogan would sell out the Coliseum(It was a badass Rambo Hogan poster). Too bad Vince did not read our mainstream media mocking Slaughter as champion with lines like...The wwf went to the old folks home to stroll out Sgt. Slaughter and he's suppose to be a threat to Hulk Hogan?....

[Guest LooneyTune]

Hogan wouldn't retire champion, otherwise he wouldn't have jobbed the title every time (except for the TTIT controversy, which was planned obviously to set up the Rumble). Sure, Hogan played lots of politics, but at least he lost the title respectably every time and didn't walk away with the title.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

You doubt Hulk Hogan's inflated ego wouldn't pass the idea of him RETIRING WITH THE BELT?

I don't doubt Hogan would have loved to have retired Champion, but not at WM VII. He was still fairly hot then, and he had plenty of drawing power left. Hogan's ego is driven by the money he can make, and he had a ton of money still to make at that point.

[Promoter 0]

Hogan wouldn't retire champion, otherwise he wouldn't have jobbed the title every time (except for the TTIT controversy, which was planned obviously to set up the Rumble). Sure, Hogan played lots of politics, but at least he lost the title respectably every time and didn't walk away with the title.

Usually, I'm the Hogan apologist on the internet. I was joking with Hogan retiring with the belt. The only time in his wwf tenure where I felt he phoned it in during a job was with Taker at Survivor Series. He just did not have that fire that night like he did in his other losses. It could have also been Hogan losing his magic as well due to aging. I think Hogan's steam was running out after SummerSlam that year(although he still did have things to do such as the dream match with Flair). Hogan and Warrior steam was not the same in 1991 as it was in 1990 for whatever reason. Taker was actually gaining steam.

[Guest Mad the Swine]

Just to add some more folklore about Hogan/Warrior in 1990 and the fabled rematch that never took place is that Ric Flair was said to be in the crowd at skydome and was in talks with Vince Mcmahon. I don't know how true this is, but when you see Sting go over Flalater in the year it could mean wcw was trying to phase Flair out and he knew it, so he talked with Vince. This is complete folklore in Toronto though. He did show up a little over a year later in the wwf though with another nwa mainstay Road Warriors. I suppose Flair would have said this in his book(never read it) if it had any truth to it. It's interesting though.

Incorrect. Flair was not in Toronto.

 

He worked a double shot that day (Apr 1 1990). Asheville and Charlotte.

 

Flair and Vince had been in talks in 1988. Perhaps some in 1990. Rumors were that Flair wanted out. But his situation with Herd had not reached its height for that particular year.

 

A month later, yes, Herd wanted Flair to drop the title to Luger. Flair refused to do so at house shows in St. Louis and Chicago, then later at the ppv (Capital Combat) in Washington D.C.