The Bret Hart Appreciation Thread

[Guest wildpegasus]

After talking about how the ring bell from Bret vs Piper at Wrestlemania plays into Bret vs Austin at Wrestlemania over at smarkschoice.com I thought it'd be a great idea to get a Bret Hart appreciation thread going because he's just done so many cool things in his career. I'm hoping to start talking about some of the subtle stuff he's done.

 

 

Some cool stuff to start off

 

The playing off of the previous Bret vs Benoit matches in the Bret vs Benoit tribute match for Owen

 

End of Survivor Series 90 against Dibiase

 

I gotta go sleep now. Hopefully when I come back this thread will be humongous!

[Guest Rrrsh]

Bret being one of only two men to make Nash look good

 

Bret being a kick ass heel in face vs face matches

[Lil' Bitch]

Everything about Bret from whether it was feuding with Demolition, Mr. Perfect, Ric Flair, Razor Ramon, Yokozuna, Owen, Hakushi, Jerry Lawler, HBK, Diesel, Sid, Vader, Undertaker, Steve Austin, you couldn't help but enjoy everything he did in the ring against the opponent whether it was the angle itself or the story told between the ropes. I can honestly that outside of the feud with Bob Backlund or Kan...I mean Isaac Yankeem, there's not one Bret match I didn't enjoy.

[Guest krazykat72]

I can honestly that outside of the feud with Bob Backlund or Kan...I mean Isaac Yankeem, there's not one Bret match I didn't enjoy.

Then you haven't seen enough matches. He's had some awful ones with IRS, Adam Bomb, Warlord, Yoko, and Sid. Let's not even get into the WCW days or some of his house show matches.

 

Since this is an appreciation thread,

Bret was probably the second best North American Wrestler from the early to mid 90's and was a good champion for the WWF. HIs work holds up well and it was fun to watch him in his prime evolve from high level tag guy to excellent solo wrestler.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[TheFranchise]

'Then you haven't seen enough matches. He's had some awful ones with IRS, Adam Bomb, Warlord, Yoko, and Sid. Let's not even get into the WCW days or some of his house show matches. '

 

But GOOD GOD, look at what he had to work with there!

[Guest wildpegasus]

I can honestly that outside of the feud with Bob Backlund or Kan...I mean Isaac Yankeem, there's not one Bret match I didn't enjoy. 

Then you haven't seen enough matches. He's had some awful ones with IRS, Adam Bomb, Warlord, Yoko, and Sid. Let's not even get into the WCW days or some of his house show matches.

 

Since this is an appreciation thread,

Bret was probably the second best North American Wrestler from the early to mid 90's and was a good champion for the WWF. HIs work holds up well and it was fun to watch him in his prime evolve from high level tag guy to excellent solo wrestler.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

Bret's cage match with Yokozuna from MSG ruled. I reccomended it to all Bret and Yokozuna fans. I have also heard reliable praise for the San Fransico cage match against Yokozuna.

[Stephen]

I enjoyed the Bret Hart vs Ted Dibiase match from WWF Vol 19. For some reason i always enjoyed his matches with the Barbarian when he was defending the WWF IC title.

[Guest bort]

Barbarian was always underated, he was even solid in his last wcw days

[natey2k4]

I can honestly that outside of the feud with Bob Backlund or Kan...I mean Isaac Yankeem, there's not one Bret match I didn't enjoy. 

Then you haven't seen enough matches. He's had some awful ones with IRS, Adam Bomb, Warlord, Yoko, and Sid. Let's not even get into the WCW days or some of his house show matches.

 

Since this is an appreciation thread,

Bret was probably the second best North American Wrestler from the early to mid 90's and was a good champion for the WWF. HIs work holds up well and it was fun to watch him in his prime evolve from high level tag guy to excellent solo wrestler.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

Whatever man.. I've seen Bret Hart matches against I.R.S that were very good. I.R.S was a talented worker, and his matches with Bret were good.

[SamoaRowe]

Hmm... how about that I just love Bret Hart and I think he's one of the greatest professional wrestlers to ever step inside a ring.

 

[BHK]

SS 96. WM XIII.

 

nuff said.

[cawthon777]

I have also heard reliable praise for the San Fransico cage match against Yokozuna.

I've seen that and would agree that it's probably one of the best Yoko matches anyone will find. I think even Meltzer rated it somewhat high.

 

Bret is the reason I went from a casual fan that would sometimes watch Superstars to a die-hard that would put down $220 for a floor seat at WrestleMania.

 

I've said for years that my favorite match, based largely on nostalgia, is Bret vs. Davey Boy at Wembley. The buildup to that match solidified me as a fan, the match itself cemented it.

 

I love his early singles matches against the likes of Steamboat, Dibiase, Savage, Martel, etc.

[Guest Loss]

Paul, if Bret was the second best worker of the early-mid 90s on NA soil, who was the best? I agree with this actually, but I'm curious as to who you're referring.

[Hunter's Torn Quad]

I have also heard reliable praise for the San Fransico cage match against Yokozuna.

I've seen that and would agree that it's probably one of the best Yoko matches anyone will find. I think even Meltzer rated it somewhat high.

 

I love his early singles matches against the likes of Steamboat, Dibiase, Savage, Martel, etc.

I'm pretty sure it was the SF cage match, though I don't know for sure if it was a rating from Meltzer, but one of their house show cage matches was rated in the Observer at ****1/2.

 

And I recently saw a match with Bret against Steamboat from the Boston Gardens, and that was easily PPV-caliber stuff. Granted, it was against Steamboat, but this was from around 1986, and in those days, most wrestlers took it easy on non-PPV stuff.

[JHawk]

And I recently saw a match with Bret against Steamboat from the Boston Gardens, and that was easily PPV-caliber stuff. Granted, it was against Steamboat, but this was from around 1986, and in those days, most wrestlers took it easy on non-PPV stuff.

That was actually done a dry run for WrestleMania 2 before they decided to put Bret in the battle royal instead.

 

Excellent match, too, and worth finding a tape of that show.

[Hunter's Torn Quad]

And I recently saw a match with Bret against Steamboat from the Boston Gardens, and that was easily PPV-caliber stuff. Granted, it was against Steamboat, but this was from around 1986, and in those days, most wrestlers took it easy on non-PPV stuff.

That was actually done a dry run for WrestleMania 2 before they decided to put Bret in the battle royal instead.

 

Excellent match, too, and worth finding a tape of that show.

What are the other matches on the card ? Just the card, no results. Thanks.

[JHawk]

WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - March 8, 1986

 

Sivi Afi vs. Rene Goulet

Ted Arcidi vs. Barry O

Jake Roberts vs. Jose Luis Rivera

Judy Martin/Donna Christianello vs. The Crush Girls

WWF Intercontinental Title: Randy Savage (champion) vs. Tito Santana

Jim Neidhart vs. Scott McGhee

Cpl. Kirchner vs. Iron Mike Sharpe

Bull Nakano & Dump Masamoto vs. Velvet McIntyre/Dawn Marie

Ricky Steamboat vs. Bret Hart

The Funk Brothers vs. Hulk Hogan/Junk Yard Dog

[Hunter's Torn Quad]

I'm loving the IC Title match. I really dig Santana from that era. I can't wait to see the full Hart Steamboat match. The main event looks all kinds of fun. The rest looks a tad unappealing, except for the Ted Arcidi match, because I've heard that he was really really bad, and I want to see that for myself.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

It's safe to say that likely was a 2 match card. I'm betting those two matches rocked the house though.

 

Why didn't they go with Bret/Steamboat at WM2? Bret's presence in the rumble wasn't completely neccesary and Steamboat had a meaningless match. I can't understand why they decided against having a great ****+ match when the entire ppv was lacking anything of quality.

[Lil' Bitch]

Is the Hart / Steamboat match in question the same one on the Hart Foundation tape?

[JHawk]

Is the Hart / Steamboat match in question the same one on the Hart Foundation tape?

Probably, since they only had one other match against each other and nobody's sure if that one exists (it was from the Capital Center in Landover, MD).

[Guest krazykat72]

Paul, if Bret was the second best worker of the early-mid 90s on NA soil, who was the best? I agree with this actually, but I'm curious as to who you're referring.

Shawn Michaels. Having rewatched *a lot* of his stuff (from the Rockers to his '97 stuff), it holds up a lot better than people give it credit for.

Personally, I'm tr=ired of the internet's ridiculous hatred of Michaels for stuff that went on in the 90's and the ridiculous amount of praise Hart gets in comparison.

The backstage stuff has no effect on how I see Shawn (or Bret) as a worker.

HBK was a jerk, but really, so were a ton of other guys. They were more equals than anything else and I always liked Shawn a little more.

I'm sure some people will take that as me "slamming" Bret since the prevailing attitude seems to be you can't be a big fan of both guys, even though they're by far my two favorites of that era (Steamboat and Austin) would all be somewhere in there too.

 

Some awesome overlooked Shawn stuff would be

 

The '91 Rumble match vs. the Orient Express is probably the best WWF tag match of that era

The Mania 7 match with Haku and Barbarian is shockingly good

vs. Randy Savage 4/92 on a World Tour video

vs. Razor 8/94 RAW

vs. 123 Kid 2/96

 

I mention all these because they're all different. The first is essentially a juniors tag, the second a big man/ little man match, the third is Shawn as a mid carder getting his first shot at the belt and Savage selling his ass off. (much like the Bret SNME match) The 4th was just a great back and forth deal with the Mania history playing a part and the 5th is a rare occurance fo Shawn working some power spots in.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest krazykat72]

Is the Hart / Steamboat match in question the same one on the Hart Foundation tape?

Probably, since they only had one other match against each other and nobody's sure if that one exists (it was from the Capital Center in Landover, MD).

I thought it was the Boston Garden.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Loss]

Shawn Michaels.

I was thinking you'd say Vader. I guess I was wrong, because I think Vader was the best US worker of the early-mid 90s, with Bret closely behind.

 

Shawn was good, and I think he gets unfairly criticized by a lot of people, but when I look back, I see an awesome tag wrestler who didn't become a great singles wrestler until 1994. He peaked in 1995 and 1996, and his best days were mostly over after he lost the title the first time.

 

The problem with Shawn for me has always been his selling. I put Bret above him because I prefer the more realistic match layout. I've seen Bret sell a knee injury for weeks and I've seen Shawn shake off a back injury within minutes.

 

The "being a dick" thing doesn't affect my views of him as a worker, but the "being unprofessional" thing does because it actively affected his matches. I've seen him lose his temper with Vader mid-ring, or throw a tantrum at a timekeeper. Those sorts of things are no longer backstage at that point -- they're happening in the ring and they're driving his match quality South.

[Guest krazykat72]

Shawn Michaels.

 

 

Shawn was good, and I think he gets unfairly criticized by a lot of people, but when I look back, I see an awesome tag wrestler who didn't become a great singles wrestler until 1994. He peaked in 1995 and 1996, and his best days were mostly over after he lost the title the first time.

 

The problem with Shawn for me has always been his selling. I put Bret above him because I prefer the more realistic match layout. I've seen Bret sell a knee injury for weeks and I've seen Shawn shake off a back injury within minutes.

 

See, I think he was already great by mid-late 1992. The matches with Jannetty (Rumble '93, RAW 5/93, RAW 7/93), the 4/92 Savage Match are all really, really good.

I see your point about bret, but to me that's a minor deal. Wrestling requires suspension of disbelief to begin with. The kip-up was part of the schtick, like the Hulk Up or the Five moves of Doom (where Bret would be totally fine after usually getting beat on for awhile while performing them). One of my biggest qualms was Bret was a lot like Ric Flair in getting his stuff into matches whereas I felt Shawn was much more adaptable to his opponent (see the previously mentioned matches plus his Nash matches, Sid, Jarrett, Foley, Davey Boy etc). I also liked his bumping and moveset more. I also thought he connected better with the crowd. One of the reasons he's still effective today, is he's from the older style mentality of waiting for the right moment to hit a big move, the use of milking a blade job and making basic moves (the flying forearm, the superkick) seem much more important than they are. His babyface comebacks are great for those reasons.

He had a really stron '97 when he was active, so I'm not sure I go along with his best days being behind him when he had the

Austin & HBK vs. Owen & Davey 5/97 RAW

Mankind/HBK Raw 8/97

UT/HBK Ground Zero

HBK/Davey Boy 9/97

HBK/UT HiaC 10/97

all of which are very good to excellent (IMO) of course.

 

As for Vader, I don't think his US work holds up nearly as well as his Japanese stuff (which is another ball game) I was never a fan of the Cactus matches. I love the majority of the Sting Series (particularly the Bash match) and if I recall, he had some fun matches with Steamboat on Worldwide (or Saturday night), but I never thought of him as above Hart or Michaels.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Loss]

The Vader/Sting trilogy (Bash '92, Starrcade '92, SuperBrawl III) is probably better than any Shawn Michaels match ever, with the Foley match from Mind Games and the second ladder match with Ramon possibly at the same level.

 

Shawn was past his prime by the end of 1996. Yeah, he was still contributing in 1997, but we've long seen wrestlers put out good matches after their peak is over. I don't know how you can call 1997 part of his peak when his body was so shot that he couldn't even work house shows. He had such a limited schedule at that point.

[JHawk]

Is the Hart / Steamboat match in question the same one on the Hart Foundation tape?

Probably, since they only had one other match against each other and nobody's sure if that one exists (it was from the Capital Center in Landover, MD).

I thought it was the Boston Garden.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

The one on tape is the Boston Garden one. The other match between them was from Landover.

[Guest curry_man2002]

Giving us one of the most recoignised images in wrestling, having stone cold in a sharpshooter with blood pouring down his face at WM 13.

[Guest krazykat72]

The Vader/Sting trilogy (Bash '92, Starrcade '92, SuperBrawl III) is probably better than any Shawn Michaels match ever, with the Foley match from Mind Games and the second ladder match with Ramon possibly at the same level.

 

Shawn was past his prime by the end of 1996. Yeah, he was still contributing in 1997, but we've long seen wrestlers put out good matches after their peak is over. I don't know how you can call 1997 part of his peak when his body was so shot that he couldn't even work house shows. He had such a limited schedule at that point.

I *vehemently* disagree with that assertation.

 

I don't think *any* of the Vader/Sting matches were better than the Michaels/Hart Survivor Series '92 match except possibly the strap match, which to me, wasn't even as good as either Ladder Match. I guess that's why everyone's got opinions

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Rrrsh]

Shawn Michaels.

I was thinking you'd say Vader. I guess I was wrong, because I think Vader was the best US worker of the early-mid 90s, with Bret closely behind.

 

Shawn was good, and I think he gets unfairly criticized by a lot of people, but when I look back, I see an awesome tag wrestler who didn't become a great singles wrestler until 1994. He peaked in 1995 and 1996, and his best days were mostly over after he lost the title the first time.

 

The problem with Shawn for me has always been his selling. I put Bret above him because I prefer the more realistic match layout. I've seen Bret sell a knee injury for weeks and I've seen Shawn shake off a back injury within minutes.

 

The "being a dick" thing doesn't affect my views of him as a worker, but the "being unprofessional" thing does because it actively affected his matches. I've seen him lose his temper with Vader mid-ring, or throw a tantrum at a timekeeper. Those sorts of things are no longer backstage at that point -- they're happening in the ring and they're driving his match quality South.

The problem with Vader is that he is WAY to one-dementional to be considered the best of an era.

 

But he was damn good.