Knowing what you know now would you still draft

[Guest Cerebus]

So the title says it all. Mrs. Cerebus and I were arguing it over dinner. I say no, she says yes.

 

Discuss.

[2GOLD 0]

Big Ben is in an offense very much based around the run. His job is simple: Don't turn over the ball, make the high percentage throws.

 

Manning is on an offense rebuilding from the ground up, with no line and no receivers.

 

Obviously, this isn't a knock on Big Ben but he is in the perfect offense for a rookie quarterback. He's not asked to throw over 200 yards a game, if he does that's great but it's not his job. He has had troubles at time when constantly blitzed and flushed out of the pocket. Lots of his passes in those situations have been "threw em ups" with a core of wide outs who can go get them. But Ben has won some games with his arm when asked and he has shown great maturity.

 

Manning has had one good game and lots of bad games. His throws still are not pinpoint or even close to pinpoint but they are coming around. He doesn't work well in a slow down offense but he works much better in the hurry up and throw offense the Giants seem to be getting ready to establish.

 

So who would I have drafted if I was the Giants? Manning still. The Giants did not have the kind of offensive line needed to establish a slow punch em in the mouth running game which has allowed Big Ben to develop so well.

 

Ask this question in two or three seasons but right now, there is nothing that leads me the believe that Big Ben would have the Giants in any better position than they are.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I've always thought that Big Ben was a better pro prospect that Manning or Rivers. I've always thought he had a better arm, made better decisions and was bigger/faster than the other two.

[Precious Roy 0]

Big Ben is in an offense very much based around the run. His job is simple: Don't turn over the ball, make the high percentage throws.

 

Manning is on an offense rebuilding from the ground up, with no line and no receivers.

 

Obviously, this isn't a knock on Big Ben but he is in the perfect offense for a rookie quarterback. He's not asked to throw over 200 yards a game, if he does that's great but it's not his job. He has had troubles at time when constantly blitzed and flushed out of the pocket. Lots of his passes in those situations have been "threw em ups" with a core of wide outs who can go get them. But Ben has won some games with his arm when asked and he has shown great maturity.

 

Manning has had one good game and lots of bad games. His throws still are not pinpoint or even close to pinpoint but they are coming around. He doesn't work well in a slow down offense but he works much better in the hurry up and throw offense the Giants seem to be getting ready to establish.

 

So who would I have drafted if I was the Giants? Manning still. The Giants did not have the kind of offensive line needed to establish a slow punch em in the mouth running game which has allowed Big Ben to develop so well.

 

Ask this question in two or three seasons but right now, there is nothing that leads me the believe that Big Ben would have the Giants in any better position than they are.

what he said

[Guest Vitamin X]

Well, I guess 2GOLD basically said what all the guys championing Manning over BenRo were going to say, with the exception that Big Ben hasn't won SOME games with his arm, he's won ONE (the Jaguars game) maybe two (if you include yesterday's win) with his arm. He's got a ton of talent around him, and it might even be safe to say the Steelers would be even more dangerous with Maddox, if Maddox could limit his turnovers because Tommy had a better passing arm, but not as smart with the ball.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

I'd go with Ben not just because he's a better qb but because I know him and he's a stand up guy.

 

Manning? He's the youngest child under the shadow of a famous father and more famous brother. That doesn't look good to me.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Absolutely. However, I would not have picked Rivers before him. Manning's team stinks, and it is really unfair that Coughlin put him in that situation. He should have pulled a Marvin Lewis. Ride Warner to the playoffs and then start Eli next year. Going into the season, I had the Steelers pegged as a darkhorse and the Giants pegged for the basement. Ben got drafted by the far more talented team, and you knew this even at the time of the draft.

 

San Diego won the deal though, even though I still don't think they really needed a QB (I always thought Brees got shafted by them). Now they get an extra pick next year, and it will be high given how bad the Giants are.

[KingPK 0]

You know, it's funny that Rivers was picked in-between, but the other two are starting, and the team he went to (after dragging his feet in negotiations) is saying "Hmm, maybe this Brees kid isn't that bad." It would be hilarious if Rivers gets traded twice before he even plays an NFL game.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Well, San Diego is pretty inept as a team. They should have drafted Gallery or Sean Taylor, and if Brees didn't work out they would be back at 2-14 and ready to draft Leinhart this year.

[jimmy no nose 0]

I think it's too early to call with Roethlisberger and Manning, but I've never understood the Rivers pick. He uses a strange delivery that has never quite worked in the NFL but has been successful in college in the past. Yesterday in the Steelers Giants game Manning had a very Roethlisberger-esque game while Ben played more like Vinnie Testaverde did early in the season.

[2GOLD 0]

Well, San Diego is pretty inept as a team. They should have drafted Gallery or Sean Taylor, and if Brees didn't work out they would be back at 2-14 and ready to draft Leinhart this year.

 

No matter what they do, the Chargers will always be the same old Chargers on draft day.

This is the same team that used a high round pick on a fullback once.

 

They didn't need a quarterback, they needed wide outs and defense.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I think it's too early to call with Roethlisberger and Manning, but I've never understood the Rivers pick. He uses a strange delivery that has never quite worked in the NFL but has been successful in college in the past. Yesterday in the Steelers Giants game Manning had a very Roethlisberger-esque game while Ben played more like Vinnie Testaverde did early in the season.

I guess Rivers reminded a lot of scouts of Bernie Kozar. Or that's what I had heard at least.

[Guest Flyboy]

They didn't need a quarterback, they needed wide outs and defense.

Or Robert Gallery.

[Sass 0]

Ironically, the Raiders were going to draft Big Ben instead of Robery Gallery. Al Davis likes QB's with strong arms who can bomb the ball down the field with no problem. They were also pegged to draft Willis McGahee but passed on him. This year they need to pick up Mike Williams. The 3 of them could have provided the team with great seasons for 10 + years. Oh well.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

He's got a ton of talent around him, and it might even be safe to say the Steelers would be even more dangerous with Maddox, if Maddox could limit his turnovers because Tommy had a better passing arm, but not as smart with the ball.

 

Bullshit. Tommy Maddox has a flaccid passing arm and he's stationary in the pocket. With the problems the Steeler O-line has had, nobody could do the job better than Ben is right now.

 

I don't think many people who don't follow the Steelers religiously realize how important Ben is to this team. It's just the threat of passing which lets the Steelers run the ball. With Tommy Maddox in there last year -- with the SAME TEAM on the field -- our running game was 32nd. This year, the only difference -- and I mean the ONLY difference -- is Ben Roethlisberger.

[2GOLD 0]

And Duce Staley

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Yeah, he's really mattered lately.

 

He's a great running back, but he's also been injured for about seven straight weeks. I guess you can really attribute 13-1 to him

[cabbageboy 0]

I don't think Roethlisberger would be doing nearly as well with the Giants. It's sort of hard and pointless to compare these two really. I do think I'd still take Eli over Rivers though. I NEVER thought Rivers was worth shit in college though....the guy just did dinky little 5 yard screen passes and never showed much arm.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Seeing how Manning acted like a little bitch over getting drafted, I wouldn't have wanted him on my team. Then again, that means I wouldn't have wanted Elway either...

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Seeing how Manning acted like a little bitch over getting drafted, I wouldn't have wanted him on my team. Then again, that means I wouldn't have wanted Elway either...

I don't mind that he wanted to dump the Chargers. I just don't like him wanting to go to the Giants. I don't consider him whiny, but I do consider him stupid.

[iggymcfly 0]

I would have never drafted Manning #1 to begin with. He was mediocre in college, and gave no reason to think that he'd be better in the NFL. Just because his brother's a great QB doesn't mean shit for him.

 

If the Giants wanted a QB, they should have taken a project in the second round, taken Gallery in the first to help out their terrible offensive line, and then let Warner carry the team to the playoffs.

[Damaramu 0]

I would have never drafted Manning #1 to begin with. He was mediocre in college, and gave no reason to think that he'd be better in the NFL. Just because his brother's a great QB doesn't mean shit for him.

 

If the Giants wanted a QB, they should have taken a project in the second round, taken Gallery in the first to help out their terrible offensive line, and then let Warner carry the team to the playoffs.

Yeah but they didn't know they were going to have Warner on draft day, the figured they had Eli and the Bachelor.

And had Collins been released yet?

[Crimson Platypus 0]

The comparison just isn't valid really.

 

Ward/Burress is one of the best WR combos in the NFL

 

Hilliard/Toomer, while decent, are both past their prime as WRs - certainly not at the level of Ward/Burress.

 

For all their recent offensive line troubles, the Steelers O-line has really played fairly well this year. Meanwhile the G-Men O-line is just slightly above college D1-AA level. Just horrid.

[Gert T 0]

If the Giants wanted a QB, they should have taken a project in the second round, taken Gallery in the first to help out their terrible offensive line, and then let Warner carry the team to the playoffs.

Remember though Gallery was already gone. I think Manning will be alright in the long run.

 

I think Toomer/Hilliard is one of the most overrated combos in the NFL. Hilliard hasn't really returned to his past level since the Dawkins hit last year.

 

But the Giants need so many different things to address in the off-season, and it doesn't help they do not have a first round pick this year. The Chargers were in the tougher spot than the Giants, New York should have tried to push it back to a 1st Round pick in 2006.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

For everyone touting Ward/Burress and then saying Ben has struggled, remember that Burress has been out for the last five weeks.

[mike546 0]

So?

 

Randell is better than both Hilliard and Toomer.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

For everyone touting Ward/Burress and then saying Ben has struggled, remember that Burress has been out for the last five weeks.

And remember Burress likes to spike live footballs from time to time. I'd also like to back Tyler up on saying this team wouldn't be shit if Tommy Maddox was still starting. He couldn't do shit with this same receiving core last season and the team wasn't going much of anything with him as a starter. 1-1 and that win was a close call against a terrible Oakland team.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

So?

 

Randell is better than both Hilliard and Toomer.

Oh please, stop acting like Toomer is this suddenly horrible wide receiver. The guy had 5 straight 1000 yard seasons leading up to this one.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

For everyone touting Ward/Burress and then saying Ben has struggled, remember that Burress has been out for the last five weeks.

And remember Burress likes to spike live footballs from time to time. I'd also like to back Tyler up on saying this team wouldn't be shit if Tommy Maddox was still starting. He couldn't do shit with this same receiving core last season and the team wasn't going much of anything with him as a starter. 1-1 and that win was a close call against a terrible Oakland team.

Not to sound like I'm the smartest guy here or anything but I would agree with you about Maddox. The Steelers would be a totally different team with him at QB and I don't think they would be where they are right now without Ben. I've watched every game the Steelers played all year and it's evident that the most important thing that Ben does that Tommy doesn't is run effectively. Ben's elusiveness is one thing that seperates him from Maddox as well as his youth. People tend to forget that Maddox has very limited NFL experience for his age. Also, make no mistake that Burress being out has hurt the Steelers offense as well. Anyone with a knowledge of football should figure that the loss of a 6'5 reciever will affect your offense.

 

But to answer the question, I would have choosen Rothlisberger over Manning or Rivers at the beginning of the year considering if I ran a team I like the larger more limber QB's over guys like Manning or Rivers. That's not a knock on either QB either as it's just my personal preference.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Two more things regarding the Steelers of last year and the Steelers of this year:

 

1) Ben wouldn't be doing as well with last year's banged up O-line unit.

 

2) The running game wasn't nearly as good as last year as it is this year...