Guest Loss Report post Posted December 28, 2004 If the company had been booked properly since 2000, who do you think would currently be the biggest star in the company? As a separate question, who do you think would be the other main eventers around him? I tend to think Rob Van Dam and Chris Jericho would be the top stars personally, with Eddy Guerrero, Kurt Angle, Booker T, Chris Benoit, HHH and Shawn Michaels all moving in and out of the spots around them. I was curious as to what you all thought. When I see Jericho, I see someone who should be on top of the company right now, but because of the way he has been booked, he's now a supporting player, and the likelihood of him ever getting out of that role is pretty slim. Would the fans still buy him as the top guy? It's hard to say. He's been damaged so much that I don't know if he's as popular as he was in 2000 when he was climbing the ladder. I do think he would have been a draw. As a worker, Jericho is above average and has had some good-great matches and some stinkers. Any weaknesses he has are minor and could easily be covered up by good booking. I think about the pop he got when he got the fake title win over HHH, or when he pinned Austin in the tag match where HHH tore his quad, and I look at where he is now, and it's sort of depressing. Van Dam is a slightly different animal who had the same rep attached to him from day one as Jericho -- too sloppy, can't work a main event style, etc. I think they'd have to be a little more careful about how they booked RVD, as he's not quite as bulletproof as Jericho, but had they rode the wave of popularity he had in 2001 and put the belt on him before year's end, he probably would have been the next big company star and he'd only now be showing signs of slowing down, if at all. Had Jericho been elevated to the top in 2000, would he seem stale in that role now? Had RVD been put in that role in 2001, would he seem stale now? Eddy, Angle and Booker are all people who have made a strong connection with the fans in different time periods and had that connection taken away by a company hesitant to shoot them all the way to the top. Yeah, Angle is a top star, but as champion, he's booked as such a weak player that it's hurt his credibility. I'd rather not make this a Kurt Angle thread though, as we have talked about him and RVD too much, and not enough about Jericho, Eddy and Booker. HHH would be near the top of the card at this point, I think, but I think his hot heel run was only meant to be a short one. He does deserve credit for stepping up and, along with Rock, carrying the company in a year that saw Steve Austin on the sidelines, the Undertaker gone for the first half of the year and Mick Foley retiring. Rock was the only guy with star power and good booking catapulted HHH to that level as well. There were too many guys climbing the ladder in 2000 for HHH to maintain his spot until present day though, I think. While his work was probably overrated, his impact on top has in many ways been written off because he's been overexposed and overpushed to a point where most are sick of him now. Had he not gotten so much interview time and beaten everyone so many times, I think he'd still be somewhat fresh and would be about where Benoit or Jericho are now on the card. Shawn Michaels is an interesting case, because he's obviously a failed draw, but I think taking a gamble on him while business was good would have worked out fine. Doing so when you're trying to work your way out of a lull was a pretty big mistake, but that's because they were trying to rebuild their image and needed to be relying on fresher faces. His work is superior enough to his peers that he would have maintained a spot in the upper midcard with the occasional main event I think, but I think there's more money and future potential in the other names listed, so there would have been a limit to what Shawn could accomplish. As for Benoit, I've never thought he should be the top guy. He actually impressed me during his run with the belt by doing better than I thought he would as champ, despite being booked as a midcarder with a belt. I think Benoit's value is in doing buffer feuds and giving guys good matches that need them for their credibility while moving up the card. You keep Benoit strong and in top storylines, but he's more of the respected veteran than the top star to build around. In a perfect world, Benoit would be pushed like the Undertaker. Thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted December 28, 2004 I pretty much agree with you. I think Brock Lesnar would still also be on the roster. I think had he not been stuck in that horrible feud with Bob Holly that he wouldn't have left. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted December 28, 2004 I pretty much agree with you. I think Brock Lesnar would still also be on the roster. I think had he not been stuck in that horrible feud with Bob Holly that he wouldn't have left. This is definitely true. I can't believe I forgot him. Lesnar and Kane, another monster who is always a success when pushed hard, would be near the top of the card as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheBigSwigg 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 I could see Benoit as a top player, but not as THE top player. His role would be to make others look good, and to restore the belt's prestige when necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted December 28, 2004 I think had Benoit actually won the title from the Rock sometime in 2000 that he could've had a good run as a heel. The booking of Fully Loaded 2000 I think was where the WWF went wrong. Having Rock, Undertaker and Triple H win was the beginning of all this crap IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humongous2002 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 RVD could've been a great main eventer in my opinion since the crowd still loves him after being buried time after time until this day, the guy should've been WWF champ by the ending of 2001 or by Mania 18 instead of Jericho (Who should've been champ in 2000 instead of Kurt) or HHH (Who was at least the 4th top babyface next to Austin, RVD and Rock). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Mandarin 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 RVD and Chris Jericho are too small and I don't take them seriously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted December 28, 2004 RVD and Chris Jericho are too small and I don't take them seriously. Yet the wrestler who you base your name off of is smaller than both of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Mandarin 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 No, the "CM" was for Kama Mustafa (I spelled his first name wrong) and Bryan Clarke's college nickname was "The Funk" so shut up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChick 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 I really do think that Jericho should have been the guy they build their company around as well, because of all the reasons you've listed. And there isn't another guy on the roster who has the ability to have the fans love him one minute, than hate him the next, which was quite evident near the end of his heel run. If you have the fans in the palm of your hand like that, you're good to go. Plus, he's great for PR and always makes a great impression in public. I don't really like the guy, but the weird pushings of Kane always have confused me. He'll get pushed, be over, improve ratings somewhat, then be saddled with something just retarded. Right after Necrophilia, he was put in a pointless tag team with RVD (who also had just come off feuding with Triple H). Right after he unmasked, he was put in a pointless feud with Shane. Then he gets the Lita storyline. Why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted December 28, 2004 The following are the people I think WWE has screwed over the most that have potential... Rob Van Dam: I personally don't like him that much since he's been pretty much dogging it for two years, but the crowd still loves him and he has a unique style that makes him stand out. So he gets squashed by Triple H, shoved down to the mid-card, and has been until recently on the Velocity program too many times. Kane: The ratings were at their best when Kane unmasked, as the show was hitting 5.0+'s for the over-runs segments that had him in them. Also he's a believable contender to anyone and is booked like a monster... but then he got Necrophillia as an angle against Triple H, robbed of the title because of Hunter, and then when he was really over unmasked, Shane McMahon comes out and kills any Main Event heat Kane had. Let's not forget Undertakers 1009303-1 record vs. Kane. Chris Jericho: I think everyone knows what happend to Jericho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Prof_Plague Report post Posted December 28, 2004 RVD and Chris Jericho are too small and I don't take them seriously. I once said that about Benoit and Guerrero. Before either became champion, I could see them as main eventing, but not World champions. Now it's hard not to pictute either of them as champions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twisted Intestine 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 They had the greatest promo man in the business. With one of the most unique characters in the business. He helped revolutionize sports entertainment. They give him a "goth hardcore" character, a few runs with the hardcore title, job him to Tommy Dreamer in a "loser leaves RAW" match, and job him on heat for the rest of his contract. Damn them.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Raven is shit outside of the Independents. No way in hell would he make it as a Main Eventer in a real company like WWE or WCW (if they were still alive) He's a lifetime midcarder who got over by bleeding, making people bleed, and cutting some good promos. If Johnny Polo can be a main eventer in the WWF, why not Aldo Montoya? He headlined in ECW too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twisted Intestine 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 He's a lifetime midcarder who got over by bleeding, making people bleed, and cutting some good promos. Oh, so he can already do more than half of WWEs uppercard? If they allowed him to cut the proper promos, people would care more about seeing Raven come after HHH for his title than they would about Michaels or Orton. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Raven coming after the WWE World Title would be a joke to me. It would be like Hunter defending the title on a PPV vs. The Hurricane or someone like that who has a cult following, but really doesn't have that strong enough fan base that would even care about him. Even lame hacks like Scott Steiner & Kevin Nash were at least at one time really over with everyone. I personally LIKE Raven's matches and stuff, but thinking realistic, he wouldn't make it as the main eventer of the biggest promotion in the world. And if we're going by today, Raven has completely let himself go and shouldn't even get the World Title in NWA-TNA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
King Cucaracha 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 If Johnny Polo can be a main eventer in the WWF, why not Aldo Montoya? He headlined in ECW too. Retarded logic at it's best. Unless that was suppoed to be humour. It's hard to tell with you sometimes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twisted Intestine 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 It's true that he's gotten lazy these days... but back when he was with the WWE I think he could have been a legit threat. He wasn't over, because they didn't give him a chance to be. If they would have given him promo time and exposure, I think the fans would have took on to his character. He's one of the more popular guysin TNA, even in his current shape. But WWE didn't give him a legit chance, so I guess it'll always just be speculation as to weather or not he could have gotten over with the general audience. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted December 28, 2004 If Johnny Polo can be a main eventer in the WWF, why not Aldo Montoya? He headlined in ECW too. Retarded logic at it's best. Unless that was suppoed to be humour. It's hard to tell with you sometimes. Humor... wasn't trying to actually make that argument, although I could've tried. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Myxamatosis 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 I agree with you 'mind. You cannot judge Raven on his WWE run because he was cut-off from a creative standpoint. But you look at his brief WCW and impressive ECW run and you can see that it was more than just a cult following. His mic work was probably the best in the business from 95 - 99, and that ultimately decides who is over and who is not. He is a Jake Roberts for our era really. Addressing the question, Chris Jericho is probably the most over face the company has had in the past five years. First off, he was getting face pops as a heel. His popularity couldn't be contained. He is consistently cheered at a high level. His moveset is believeable for his size. His promos are excellent. He really blends serious emotion and comedy well. The only problem lies in the creative teams treatment of his character. But time after time, job after horrible job, his character's overness remains untouchable. They couldn't bury Jericho right now if they tried their hardest. If booked properly, Jericho would be discussed among the Hogan's, Austin's and Flair's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Gotta disagree on that last statement. Not anyone can be a Hogan or a Flair. Jericho, although he has the charisma (when he's not acting like an idiot), and a good wrestler, doesn't have the superman aura look of Hogan and isn't as good on the mic as Flair, although in WCW he did cut some great promos. Also, I can say it's more likely that Jericho can't draw (I don't mean that as "bombing", but he can't do any better than anyone today), while Hogan made the WWF and whenever you heard the name NWA (or WCW) you will always think of Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChick 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 You know what's weird? It's like Jericho knows all that. He always states in his interviews that winning and losing don't matter to his character anymore because he is bulletproof. I think him, RVD and Rey are about the only guys who can say that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Myxamatosis 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Add Taker to that list as well. But there's one huge difference between him and the rest: Despite the fact that he is the most over "character" during the past 15 years, he clings and holds onto his spot like his life depends upon. Wins and losses mean everything to him, yet his characters number one attribute is "he can't be stopped." He's bulletproof all right, despite the fact that he never puts himself in the line of fire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justcoz 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Raven, when he first came to the WWF after his WCW and ECW stints, he seemed to be in the best shape of his career. Had he not been cut short by creative and was actually put into programs with top tier talent, with his mic work, it's conceivable that he could have had a good 2-3 run as a top star. I wouldn't necessarily say WWE or World Champion but I-C or U.S Title - yes... Tazz - Vince McMahon said on the ECW DVD that he was a huge fan of Taz's character and the character that Heyman built Taz into. He had the debut victory over Kurt Angle, ending Kurt's undefeated streak. So what the hell happened? They should have went with the whole "Team Taz" fight night entrance and he should have worked programs with Rock, Benoit, etc. Even during the Invasion, fans were ready to pop huge for him and he instead got punked out by Austin. He deserved a better WWE run. RVD should have had a title run a year into his debut. Even if he was politcally out of favor, the pops he received at that time should have been an indication to cash in on him while he was a fresh face with a fresh moveset to WWE fans. That's my problem with this company. I can understand politics to a point but the main objective should be cashing in on someone while they are hot. Then bury them if need be. To refuse to make as much money from them as possible, due to political BS, is just bad business. They did this with Jericho, RVD and Goldberg really. All of these guys had mainstream crossover potential, WWE produced films, etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Exslade ZX 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 About the Raven thing, I strongly disagree. I guess I can understand how some, for some reason love his promos, but I don't like them one bit. Seriously. Every promo of his, to me, it just sounds like he's one of those kids that went to Harvard or something, and constantly brag about it, and try to use 'high language'. It's just like, WTF? That 20 minute promo you just did could have been done in 1 minute, and done better at that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted December 28, 2004 In some ways, Raven screwed himself over by not working hard in ECW and allowing himself to get out of shape. That was a chance to prove himself before joining WWE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunter's Torn Quad 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Raven's promo's would have gotten him over big in the WWF, if only because they aren't the standard cookie cutter stuff that almost everybody else churns out. Being different from the rest helps you stand out just as much, if not more, than being better than the rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mole 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 You know what's weird? It's like Jericho knows all that. He always states in his interviews that winning and losing don't matter to his character anymore because he is bulletproof. I think him, RVD and Rey are about the only guys who can say that. Rock, even though he isn't around anymore, is more bulletproof than anyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zyn081 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Raven coming after the WWE World Title would be a joke to me. It would be like Hunter defending the title on a PPV vs. The Hurricane or someone like that who has a cult following, but really doesn't have that strong enough fan base that would even care about him. Even lame hacks like Scott Steiner & Kevin Nash were at least at one time really over with everyone. I personally LIKE Raven's matches and stuff, but thinking realistic, he wouldn't make it as the main eventer of the biggest promotion in the world. And if we're going by today, Raven has completely let himself go and shouldn't even get the World Title in NWA-TNA. Raven was jobbed and misused so badly, what do you expect. The top people on RAW should be Benoit and Jerricho, supported by HHH, Kane, Orton, Batista, Brock and Edge. The top people on SD! should be Eddy and RVD, supported by HBK, UT, Angle, TBS, Booker and JBL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mole 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2004 Umm, JBL shouldn't be anywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
