Batista over Benoit

[Enigma 0]

When are you people going to learn to not set off Rudo and his over-sensationalist views?

[Scroby 0]

I'm confused about what the problem is...Batista is getting a push and a face turn to go against HHH. He needs to beat people who will make him a credible threat to "The HHH". So Beniot is there to put him over, whats the issue. Beniot is the 2nd top face in the WWE eyes with Orton being first. Batista is also being billed as the monster in the elimation chamber so he powers out of the cross face, and slams Beniot's face into an exposed turnbuckle 3 times to show what he's capable of doing to someone who might be in the chamber. The booking was perfect for Batista and he needed that before the ppv so that people would understand that he's the powerhouse/monster in the chamber, that will probably be screwed by HBK since HBk will want to take the spotlight that Batista has away from Batista.

 

 

Oh and Randy Orton is basically WWE's verison of WCW's Diamond Dallas Page now, soon enough he'll start stating how the RKO can just come out of no where.

[Guest Trivia247]

How is it that its no longer anyone can beat anyone at any time?

 

Sure Benoit beat Batista several times. And yet Batista somehow beat Benoit for once and this is the crime of the fucking century?

 

obviously when they were going over the scripts at the time and benoit was told that Batista was going over, he Nodded at that. obviously it was a decent enough match. There as logic to it, for they want to cement Batista as a credible Title contender even if only by beating Benoit to do it. This shouldn't Diminish Benoit in the slightest. People win and lose their matches every day without them being Utterly destroyed in the process.

 

This is one of those things where its like people know wrestling isn't truly real, but when someone Happens to Lose because they were scripted to lose in order to make the other guy look like a contender they are like NOOOO this can't be happening...

[Dogbert 0]

I don't mind if Benoit gets knocked down a peg, as long as it's to further a possible push for someone who's new, over and a lot more talented than we've ever collectively given him credit for.

 

Benoit's spot near the top of the totem pole is secured, and his losing to Batista only serves to help get the big lug there as well. It seems like the writers may finally be getting the message.

 

Also, I saw the announcers' selling of Batista breaking the Crossface as good for Benoit, as it reinforces what a hard hold it is to break. It's like someone breaking Bret Hart's sharpshooter: it didn't happen often, and was special when it did.

[Tawren 0]

I think it is all in how they portray it. Benoit losing clean should not be a problem. Anybody losing clean should not be a problem. But if they portray it as if Benoit got completely outclassed and is terrible and as a forgotten member of the main event (that last part, they always have) that is where the problem arises. If they portray it as "Batista is improving, he learned from previous encounters with Benoit, he is resourceful, etc." then there shouldn't be a problem. But they likely won't do that.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Big deal Benoit fought on Heat ONCE (vs. Tomko). Remember Triple H vs. Maven? Orton vs. Tomko also (and Venis)... Batista vs. Venis... Jericho vs. Richards (2x)...

 

Face it. EVERYONE in the Chamber has wrestled on Heat at least once in 2004. It's NOT a big deal. JBL was World Champ and wrestled on Velocity, Booker T & John Cena as US Champs made Velocity appearences, Eddie made 1 or 2... should I go on wrestling on Heat ISN'T being depushed?

[Vyce 0]

I think it is all in how they portray it. Benoit losing clean should not be a problem. Anybody losing clean should not be a problem. But if they portray it as if Benoit got completely outclassed and is terrible and as a forgotten member of the main event (that last part, they always have) that is where the problem arises. If they portray it as "Batista is improving, he learned from previous encounters with Benoit, he is resourceful, etc." then there shouldn't be a problem. But they likely won't do that.

And they didn't do it last night.

 

This what Rudo is talking about, although people here don't seem to be either reading his posts or understanding them.

 

The problem isn't that Batista went over Benoit - it was how he was portrayed in doing it. It was done in a way that, overall, only serves to HURT Benoit, and that, quite frankly, is bullshit when Batista could have been put over in a way that protected Benoit AND elevated Batista at the same time.

 

They didn't choose that route, though.

[justsoyouknow 0]

Benoit wrestled on Heat. Clearly they aren't interested in "protecting" him. Fucking christ, kids, why can't you just admit that Batista is entertaining? All this is is bitching about Benoit not being treated as God. What, would it be better for Benoit to no-sell all of Batista's offense and then suddenly come down with narcolepsy and fall asleep so that Batista didn't really win and your Lord and Savior is still "protected"? Christ almighty, you guys are sad sometimes.

[Guest Brian]

He doesn't need to be treated like god. Just like a main eventer.

[Karc 0]

Maybe Benoit and Jericho are floundering around so that the matches can be watchable.

[zyn081 0]

90% of the fans will forget about this match in two weeks, maybe by next week depending on the reaction to the elimination chamber.

 

Of course. If Batista continues on with Evolution then his face status becomes next to nil. That's not the context of the original post.

 

It did help Batista, but I don't think Benoit will have a problem keeping the crowd on his side and being looked at as a contender for the title.

 

If you've been reading my responses in this thread, you would have gotten this. I'll say it again. Benoit drops down a spot, so whether or not the fans "remember it" won't matter because the _result_ of it is Batista moves up over Benoit. Which will be felt 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks from now. Benoit is the _least_ likely guy to win the Elimination Chamber, going by RAW.

 

It wasn't a squash for Batista anyways. Either guy could have won, and Benoit has beaten Batista before. If Batista beats Benoit again cleanly next week and the week after that, then you guys will have valid complaints.

 

You don't get it.

Batista needs to break away within the next 2 months. I agree that Benoit moves down the pecking order. Thats what has got my back up. He and Jericho have no chance of winning the EC.

[zyn081 0]

Hes needs that monster run with the title and I am putting money on him beating Flairs record. I joke. I think the damage of being a HHH bitch is permanent unfortunately, look at Jericho. I would hate to see him grovel to HHH as Jericho did to Stephanie.

 

The end-result of Orton in Evolution would be Orton usurp HHH's position as leader and HHH goes face. At the start Orton has to pay his dues in Evolution; he doesn't want to do any of it, he hates HHH, but he needs to get back on track and Evolution put him on track. He "sells out". HHH's pseudo-torture puts Orton over the edge and creates a heel even greater than he. I think that could work for Orton.

 

Id hardly say that youngest champ in WWE history has peaked.

 

What else is there to do? He still has 8 (+) years in the WWE, you have to spread that out. Right now Orton is the "present". Personally, I wouldn't bank on him being what saves the WWE but whatever.

I cant think anybody can do the egoistic heel better than HHH. Hes the number one heel going at the moment and makes it very clear that that is his spot. Every other wrestler is just secondary to the "crown jewel of RAW".

 

A wrestler normally peaks in his mid-30s. Ortons got loads of time left.

[zyn081 0]

Why cant it be a case of the fact that you learn with experience. If hes submitted to the crossface so many times, surely you find a way to counter it. I think this actually does make logical sense, and should have been up-played more, along with the fact that HHH has yet to recently beat Benoit in 1-on-1 competition.

 

I dunno, why can't it be a case of the fact you learn with experience? You ask the WWE that because they're the ones booking, THEY presented it as "Bah Gawd Batista is so STRONG!" and ignored their previous encounters, so it isn't the case. Just don't ask me why.

I agree. One of the major problems with RAW is the commentary. Its a shame because RAW can be very watchable at times. All it took was JR saying: Batistas been on the receiving end of the crossface for so long that he has realised that the only way out of it is to use brute force and use it very quickly.

[zyn081 0]

It did help Batista, but I don't think Benoit will have a problem keeping the crowd on his side and being looked at as a contender for the title.

 

If you've been reading my responses in this thread, you would have gotten this.  I'll say it again.  Benoit drops down a spot, so whether or not the fans "remember it" won't matter because the _result_ of it is Batista moves up over Benoit.  Which will be felt 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks from now.  Benoit is the _least_ likely guy to win the Elimination Chamber, going by RAW.

I know that Batista moved into Benoit's spot. I just don't consider it a bad thing. Benoit was in the main event scene so much last year that there isn't that many place they can go with him anymore (Jericho is a face, Edge won't take Triple H's #1 heel spot this soon in the year, Orton, Trips, and HBK have been done). By pushing Batista into Benoit's top babyface spot (maybe #2 depending on Orton) they have more storyline and match possiblities available to them.

They have tons of possiblities available to them:

 

Benoit (Heel) vs Batista (Face) in a ME programme. Benoit must resort to heel tactics (and by this I mean ruthless agression to win).

 

Benoit-Orton. Reversal of last year.

 

Benoit-Jericho.

 

Benoit-Kane. Reversal of last year.

 

Batista-HHH.

 

Kane-Bastita. In a ME programme.

 

Edge-HBK.

 

Jericho-Kane.

 

Jericho-HHH. Hasnt been done in ages.

 

Jericho-HBK. With HBK the cocky arrogant bastard.

 

Benoit at the moment is the #5 face. I would rather be the #2 rather than the #5 face.

[zyn081 0]

I know that Batista moved into Benoit's spot. I just don't consider it a bad thing. Benoit was in the main event scene so much last year that there isn't that many place they can go with him anymore (Jericho is a face, Edge won't take Triple H's #1 heel spot this soon in the year, Orton, Trips, and HBK have been done).

 

I question Benoits place in the "main event scene". He wasn't made a superstar like Rock or Austin where he can afford to move around and still be able to go up the card. They can very easily put Benoit down in the IC division like they did with Jericho and leave him there and he'll die there. They can go other places with Benoit, it just takes more creativity than "let's turn him heel"/"Let's put him on Smackdown"/"Lets forget about it".

By pushing Batista into Benoit's top babyface spot (maybe #2 depending on Orton) they have more storyline and match possiblities available to them.

 

Never said that wasn't the case. This thread is about the match hurting Benoit, which it did.

Of course it did. Benoit is the #5 face, how worse can it be!

 

WWE always had people who could draw. Post-Hogan it was Hart, UT, HBK and Austin. Then it was Austin, UT, Foley, HHH and The Rock. The problem is that nobody is drawing.

 

Benoit, if booked right could have been The ME Star of RAW. There were so many wasted chances. He should have been a legit title contender upon his jump to the WWE. He was the uncrowned WCW Champion, whats the point of worrying about the reverse, and then not taking advantage of this.

 

He was then used as HHHs kick stand. Being the 6th wheel in the HHH-Rock-Angle-UT-Kane summer till Austin returned. Austin came back, Benoit went down. Then his neck went out when he was getting the closest thing to a push. When he came back Austin walked out on him. Another depush. Finally, gaining momentum again, Brock walks out. If Austin and Lesnar both did the major job at a major PPV for the Title and a big deal was made out of it, Benoit would be a megastar now.

[zyn081 0]

HHH goes face.

You say this like it is a good thing. If it's a choice between HHH at top heel or top face (and pretty clearly, it is) then Trips as heel is infinitely preferable.

Thank you.

[zyn081 0]

HHH will have to go face eventually -I imagine he wasn't too satisfied with his last face run- and I didn't say it was a good thing, I said it was a good thing for Orton.

Things cant get any worse for Orton. HHH as a face was pathetic. He was getting cheap heat cause he came back from injury. The only time he got legit face heat was when he was the heal going up against Vince.

[zyn081 0]

I'm glad that Batista went over Benoit relatively clean because at least Batista is somewhat entertaining. Benoit is as bland as white rice. Seriously.

 

Suplex, suplex, suplex...shoulder submission. Oh shi...didn't work...random Sharpshooter.

 

When you see someone like Chris Benoit conform to WWE style...it's really sad.

Yes it is. He use to use the DDT, the Wildbomb, the Shoulder Breaker, various suplex and submission holds. Benoit as a face is stale. The intensity he brings as a heal is much more entertaining. Fans will respect his work regardless of his persona. I watch Benoit cause hes Benoit, but if a heel turn is required to give him a proverbial kick up the backside, then so be it.

[zyn081 0]

HHH will have to go face eventually -I imagine he wasn't too satisfied with his last face run- and I didn't say it was a good thing, I said it was a good thing for Orton.

 

 

Well, you suggested it, and that's crime enough. I am holding out on the fact that Trips is smart enough to recognize that he does not play a good face, and will hold out on any further attempts at a face run until his twilight years as a worker - or at least as long as he wishes to remain on top, which I assume will be the same thing.

 

And for the record, I don't believe the loss last night hurt Benoit significantly. Although it may have put Benoit below Batista in the current 'pecking order' (and I'm not even sure that is true), it isn't like there is an exact number of wrestlers who can be considered legit main eventers at any one time. Ask yourself: does the audience consider Benoit any less of a title threat than they did before this last Raw? (i.e. a possible, but outside, chance) Was the loss considered, or sold as, an upset? I think not.

It wasnt. Batista was higher than Benoit for the match. My whole argument is that the match made this so much clearer. I prefer the sarcastic heal HHH over the pandering face HHH anyday.

[zyn081 0]

By pushing Batista into Benoit's top babyface spot (maybe #2 depending on Orton) they have more storyline and match possiblities available to them.

 

Never said that wasn't the case.  This thread is about the match hurting Benoit, which it did.

The match definetly hurt Benoit - I'm not disagreeing. I do think some people are blowing how bad it hurt him out of proportion. It hurt him in the sense that the "order" now goes something like Triple H - Orton - Batista - Benoit - Edge - Jericho, but the crowd would still buy it if Benoit won the elimination chamber., and now that Batista has been so dominate in the last few weeks they could buy him winning it as well. The match helped Batista more than it hurt Benoit, so IMO it was worth it.

I would say Benoit is the least likely person coming out of the EC as the World Champ, less then Jericho, and thats saying something. Benoit is #6 in the company, #7 after a fit HBK and possibly #8 depending on how Kane comes back. Thats not the way to treat your #1 star of 2004.

[zyn081 0]

Benoit went from being 1 of 2 guys to have the title (he and Edge), 1 of 3 guys to dispute it (w. HHH), to the LAST of 6 likely to win the belt. Think about it.

 

Benoit faced Tomko on Heat I believe. Win or Lose, that's a hit.

My point exactly, and I would say that Kane and HBK have a better chance and winning the title and they are not even in the EC.

 

Btw, Jericho being HHHs bitch killed him. I would not want the same to Randy.

[zyn081 0]

I don't believe that is the case. There was never any point in time (including straight after the Raw with the triple threat) when HHH seemed out of the running for the title. Indeed, many round here were saying that it was obvious Trips was getting the title back due to the controversy.

 

Currently, I would place Benoit ahead of both Jericho (definitely), Edge (debatable) and Batista (debatable) in terms of likelihood of walking out of NYR with the belt. HHH has always been higher up the card than Benoit, so no change there. Orton has been having the WM ME push for 8 months now, so the Benoit hasn't really been shunted down below him recently. The ONLY wrestler who may have 'moved up the pecking order' above Benoit due to the Batista match is Batista, so how you figure it's made him the least likely of the 6 men to win at NYR is beyond me.

As much as I hate to say it, hes #6 and the blandest of the bunch. Hes being buried under other wrestlers and that is not a good thing when your in the wrestling business.

[zyn081 0]

Batista for the most part wrestles like your average muscled out roid monster. Lots of punches kicks, even more "ROAAAAAAAAR"-ing after a move as simple as a bodyslam, and then the long drawn out setup for the finisher, in this case, the powerbomb. The match was decent because Benoit sold well, and obviously had no problem putting Batista over as a monster. However Batista himself didn't do anything Albert couldn't do.

He has a much more interesting on screen character than Albert has by far. Hes supposed to be the smart roided up monster and hes doing it pretty well.

[zyn081 0]

I didn't have a problem with Batista looking as good as he did. Not at all actually. But it should have been Jericho instead of Benoit. As RRR mentioned, Benoit now, logically, is the number 6 guy in the EC. Before last night, Jericho was the number six guy (Edge/Benoit/HHH had the title in dispute, Batista is on a major role, and Orton is, well, Orton). Why unnessesarly take a strong contender in Benoit and make him weaker? Now instead of thinking 5 guys have a really strong chance at winning (everybody but Jericho), only 4 guys look like they have a strong chance.

For the simple reason that Batista squashed Jericho god knows how many times last year. The only man who could prove Batista was better was Benoit. Just a shame it had to be that way. We all know that there is only ever 1 top face and 1 top heel in a given programme, the WM one being that of HHH and Orton, at the moment. Everybody else just fades back out of the limelight. Its all about protecting your spot, and Benoit is losing his.

[zyn081 0]

My biggest problem with this and the whole Raw was that it was done on Raw and not on PPV or at least after the elimination chamber on a Raw. These three matches should be PPV caliber matches but as usual they've been stuck on Raw where we get the typical fall to the floor and JR screaming "Folks we'll be back!" on each occasion and instead of 15 or 30 minutes we get 7 to 14 minutes of in ring action. I don't care that Batista beat Benoit and yeah they should recognize that he cheated but understand that Benoit has been around for years and years and he's not gonna get that run that many of us would want like they did with Bret, taking on all comers. Benoit has all of our respect but Batista is hot right now and making him a monster is gold. A few months ago everybody was screaming about how Batista sold too much and should be a monster! Well here he comes and not a moment too soon. The best heat has always been when someone takes something from the fans and Batista will only be face long enough to turn on us and then he should take the title. The best situation would be a face Batista turning on a champion like Benoit and then having a hot face chase the monster for the title. I thought it worked with Yokozuna(I don't want to here about buyrates) and it worked for Vader in WCW so it can work again. Batista has beaten Benoit twice in 4 weeks and now looks stronger than ever and now all of a sudden we have a fresh star for the main event. Benoit is in that main event and has had more chances at the title recently with the exception of HBK and HHH. That's pretty good company if you ask me.

I agree. Thats why Benoit needs to shake his character because his current one does very little for me.

[zyn081 0]

I'm confused about what the problem is...Batista is getting a push and a face turn to go against HHH. He needs to beat people who will make him a credible threat to "The HHH". So Beniot is there to put him over, whats the issue. Beniot is the 2nd top face in the WWE eyes with Orton being first. Batista is also being billed as the monster in the elimation chamber so he powers out of the cross face, and slams Beniot's face into an exposed turnbuckle 3 times to show what he's capable of doing to someone who might be in the chamber. The booking was perfect for Batista and he needed that before the ppv so that people would understand that he's the powerhouse/monster in the chamber, that will probably be screwed by HBK since HBk will want to take the spotlight that Batista has away from Batista.

 

 

Oh and Randy Orton is basically WWE's verison of WCW's Diamond Dallas Page now, soon enough he'll start stating how the RKO can just come out of no where.

Orton is practically doing that now. I would say that Benoit is most certainly not the #2 face.

[zyn081 0]

How is it that its no longer anyone can beat anyone at any time?

 

Sure Benoit beat Batista several times. And yet Batista somehow beat Benoit for once and this is the crime of the fucking century?

 

obviously when they were going over the scripts at the time and benoit was told that Batista was going over, he Nodded at that. obviously it was a decent enough match. There as logic to it, for they want to cement Batista as a credible Title contender even if only by beating Benoit to do it. This shouldn't Diminish Benoit in the slightest. People win and lose their matches every day without them being Utterly destroyed in the process.

 

This is one of those things where its like people know wrestling isn't truly real, but when someone Happens to Lose because they were scripted to lose in order to make the other guy look like a contender they are like NOOOO this can't be happening...

I agree with you to a point. Benoit was the fall guy to make Batista look credible. He was repaying the favour. But that came at the expense of his spot.

[Black Lushus 0]

damn zyn, you are on a roll this morning...

[zyn081 0]

I think it is all in how they portray it. Benoit losing clean should not be a problem. Anybody losing clean should not be a problem. But if they portray it as if Benoit got completely outclassed and is terrible and as a forgotten member of the main event (that last part, they always have) that is where the problem arises. If they portray it as "Batista is improving, he learned from previous encounters with Benoit, he is resourceful, etc." then there shouldn't be a problem. But they likely won't do that.

Exactly. This was my point before. Its not told right.

[zyn081 0]

Big deal Benoit fought on Heat ONCE (vs. Tomko). Remember Triple H vs. Maven? Orton vs. Tomko also (and Venis)... Batista vs. Venis... Jericho vs. Richards (2x)...

 

Face it. EVERYONE in the Chamber has wrestled on Heat at least once in 2004. It's NOT a big deal. JBL was World Champ and wrestled on Velocity, Booker T & John Cena as US Champs made Velocity appearences, Eddie made 1 or 2... should I go on wrestling on Heat ISN'T being depushed?

Of course it isnt. I think it adds to Heat and Velocity. It is no way a depush. I liked Venis-Flair for example and Maven-HHH. Why shouldnt they do 2nd show duty.