Rathergate Massacre

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I'm ready for some firings in the MSM of whoever decided to air the SBVT crap/lies.

?

 

The book might have been complete crap, but to be honest, all the commercials were about his actions as Winter Soldier and throwing his metals away, right? I thought everyone declared those okay, since it wasn't his service record. Perhaps I'm wrong on this one.

The commercials had people who weren't even on the same boat as Kerry claiming they "served with him" and knew he was lying when they had no way of knowing.

 

Also, O'Neil the unoffical leader of the SBVT, has had a grudge against Kerry ever since the Nixon days.

No... that was the book. Perhaps I forget, but the people who testified on the commercials were just PoWs. The book, though, did have a bunch of shit on that. I'll come out right now and say that the book was full of shit when written. But the commercials, for all the bitching, seemed pretty fairly aimed at his after-service days.

 

And I don't care if he had a grudge, Kerry deserved to be slammed for his post Vietnam days. His lies as Winter Soldier were much worse than anything the SBVT ever put out.

What lies?

[Special K 0]

Need some help: during the campaign a general (I believe) was interviewed about Kerry, and while he disagreed with Kerry's testifying, he said something to the effect of: 'I don't think there's any doubt that most of what he said occurred.'

 

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I'm ready for some firings in the MSM of whoever decided to air the SBVT crap/lies.

?

 

The book might have been complete crap, but to be honest, all the commercials were about his actions as Winter Soldier and throwing his metals away, right? I thought everyone declared those okay, since it wasn't his service record. Perhaps I'm wrong on this one.

The commercials had people who weren't even on the same boat as Kerry claiming they "served with him" and knew he was lying when they had no way of knowing.

 

Also, O'Neil the unoffical leader of the SBVT, has had a grudge against Kerry ever since the Nixon days.

No... that was the book. Perhaps I forget, but the people who testified on the commercials were just PoWs. The book, though, did have a bunch of shit on that. I'll come out right now and say that the book was full of shit when written. But the commercials, for all the bitching, seemed pretty fairly aimed at his after-service days.

 

And I don't care if he had a grudge, Kerry deserved to be slammed for his post Vietnam days. His lies as Winter Soldier were much worse than anything the SBVT ever put out.

What lies?

ahem...Justice?

[Justice 0]

What? The site doesn't really prove anything, it just skirts the issue rather than actually addressing what they said.

 

Attrocities did happen, yes. Thank you for proving that. I never argued that they didn't, though.

 

The problem is, they weren't nearly on the level that Kerry claimed. No one has ever proven so. "The Level of which hasn't been seen since Gengis Kahn" is an overstatement to the max. They did occur, but not nearly to the level that Kerry had said. He even admits that his anger against the system influenced why he said that.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

What? The site doesn't really prove anything, it just skirts the issue rather than actually addressing what they said.

 

Attrocities did happen, yes. Thank you for proving that. I never argued that they didn't, though.

 

The problem is, they weren't nearly on the level that Kerry claimed. No one has ever proven so. "The Level of which hasn't been seen since Gengis Kahn" is an overstatement to the max. They did occur, but not nearly to the level that Kerry had said. He even admits that his anger against the system influenced why he said that.

You said that his lies were so great--greater than the SBVT...but he didn't really lie. He may have been overzealous and hyperbolic in his imagery--and in his old age he has admitted this.

 

Bottom line: SBVT-lies

Kerry-no lies, stupid use of imagery by a young idealist

 

EDIT: My Lai was kinda Genghis Khan-ish, in my humble opinion.

[NoCalMike 0]

I still don't get why Kerry not lying, but possibly exaggerating after coming back from WAR and COMBAT is ever even suggested to be put on the same level as SBVT's outright BULLSHIT.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Changed my mind, don't want to get involved in this. Not yet, anyway.

Edited January 13, 2005 by Jobber of the Week

[Justice 0]

What? The site doesn't really prove anything, it just skirts the issue rather than actually addressing what they said.

 

Attrocities did happen, yes. Thank you for proving that. I never argued that they didn't, though.

 

The problem is, they weren't nearly on the level that Kerry claimed. No one has ever proven so. "The Level of which hasn't been seen since Gengis Kahn" is an overstatement to the max. They did occur, but not nearly to the level that Kerry had said. He even admits that his anger against the system influenced why he said that.

You said that his lies were so great--greater than the SBVT...but he didn't really lie. He may have been overzealous and hyperbolic in his imagery--and in his old age he has admitted this.

 

Bottom line: SBVT-lies

Kerry-no lies, stupid use of imagery by a young idealist

 

EDIT: My Lai was kinda Genghis Khan-ish, in my humble opinion.

I don't care if you are being overzealous, he was still lying, whether or not you want to admit it. Yes, those attrocities happened. By "thousands of others" "on a day-to-day basis", though, is beyond exaggeration.

 

The guy who wrote the whole book is full of shit. Kerry served honorably enough, I honestly don't think (now out of the entire fervor that the election put the board in) that Kerry would have done that shit.

 

Just as well, his testimony as the Winter Soldier is very deceitful. I don't care if he was 'stuck in the heat of the movement', he basically lied his ass off when he describe the level of attrocities, which DID cause blowback against PoWs. He doesn't need to be convicted or anything, but he deserves to be scorned for it.

 

On Mai Lai: It was horrible. I'll agree it's something Genghis Khan might have done, but what he said is much different. When we are talking about Genghis Khan, we are talking the continually butchering and ravaging of people, not one incident.

 

Understand my view a bit better now?

[2GOLD 0]

Genghis Kahn is unmatched. He really should have aimed lower when looking for an ultimate butcher.

 

And why is John Kerry being discussed when this whole story is just about lazy reporters who didn't feel like doing their job?

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

But all of that stuff was told to him by veterans. There is no reason to believe that he lied, and no reason to believe that he thought he was lying.

 

And he said that troops had "razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan." Villages were razed and blown up. No comment is made about the frequency of the razings.

 

I just don't see it as something warranting such great scorn, and I certainly think the SBVT lies are worse. Again, I (and Kerry himself) would concede that he used language that was too strong.

 

But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[NoCalMike 0]

Using the term "Ghengis Kahn" was a mistake, but I really find it kind of despicable how you are automatically assuming Kerry is making anything up, when it could just as easily be the other side of a bunch of bitter guys trying to downplay atrocities that happened, as there are some in the group that still try and claim no atrocities ever happened. Why is it so hard to believe that maybe soldiers that witnessed or participated in these things might have a vested interest in downplaying these actions? I always loved the defense of "well I didn't see anything happen in my area, so NOTHING happened"

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Winter Soldier testimony hasn't ever been successfully refuted. It's pretty well accepted these days that some serious fucked-up shit went down in Vietnam and that the government wasn't and probably still isn't giving us the full clear picture as to what was happening.

 

I think that some of the SwiftVets guys felt that Kerry was personally talking about them as being the people responsible for irrational bloodshed. I don't think that makes them proper reason to try and bury a candidate, but anyway...

 

At the same time while airing their complaints and grievances, the group was spreading a whole ton of lies, and I don't care how many affidavits you sign or promises you make, but when you have so much military paperwork that contradicts their stories and the only answer is "John Kerry typed up all of this paperwork" with no proof or evidence behind it, skepticism is sure to follow.

 

 

My other problem with SwiftVets is that it's practically a Bush Family Tradition by now to not say anything mean about your opponent while an allied group (which may not necessarily claim to be allied) unleashes brutal and scorching attacks about their character. Right-wingers refuse to do the math and at least accept a shred of credibility to the suspicion that those sorts of events are coordinated.

[The Robfather 0]

[NoCalMike 0]

I also don't get this sentiment by the SVBT like Kerry "let the dirty secrets out of the bag" or if he acted alone on coming out to talk about atrocities. Kerry was one of many brave soldiers that returned from war to talk about what exactly was taking place over there. Kerry, was taking information largely collected and told to him by other Vets.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

IMG

 

Look, what CBS did by jumping on a story that with sources this weak was bad. But it's an absolutely preposterous "what if" to sit and bitch and moan about how they wouldn't do this with a Democrat. Just SHUT UP (yes, I know I just imitated O'Reilly there), because you really do have nothing to contribute to the situation other than speculation and hot air.

[Justice 0]

I also don't get this sentiment by the SVBT like Kerry "let the dirty secrets out of the bag" or if he acted alone on coming out to talk about atrocities. Kerry was one of many brave soldiers that returned from war to talk about what exactly was taking place over there. Kerry, was taking information largely collected and told to him by other Vets.

Well, again, there's little to prove that anything near the extent he talked about actually occurred. I'm sure he heared some of it, but the whole "Thousands" and "Daily Basis" are horrible mistruths.

 

And to note, of the 'many' brave soldiers, there were high-profile soldiers who had never served and were just acting for the Peace Movement (I believe in the same hearings that Kerry was apart of).

[NoCalMike 0]

I also don't get this sentiment by the SVBT like Kerry "let the dirty secrets out of the bag" or if he acted alone on coming out to talk about atrocities.  Kerry was one of many brave soldiers that returned from war to talk about what exactly was taking place over there.  Kerry, was taking information largely collected and told to him by other Vets.

Well, again, there's little to prove that anything near the extent he talked about actually occurred. I'm sure he heared some of it, but the whole "Thousands" and "Daily Basis" are horrible mistruths.

 

And to note, of the 'many' brave soldiers, there were high-profile soldiers who had never served and were just acting for the Peace Movement (I believe in the same hearings that Kerry was apart of).

Who is to say they were "mistruths" according to what documents or NEWS source? All you have done is called Kerry a liar over and over again, but shown little if nothing to back it up other then "well he is worse liar then SVBT"

 

Also, I am not just referring to soldiers that testified besides Kerry, rather the many that were talking about these issues before Kerry even came back. This was no "John Kerry's revolution" as the SVBT would like to paint it. Kerry was one of many, and I am sorry that you don't like it, but if you are soldier and you have witnessed atrocities, it is beyond brave and courageous to come home and speak out against wrong doings and such horrible things going on during war. I don't care if they weren't on the level of "Ghengis Kahn"

[Justice 0]

I also don't get this sentiment by the SVBT like Kerry "let the dirty secrets out of the bag" or if he acted alone on coming out to talk about atrocities.  Kerry was one of many brave soldiers that returned from war to talk about what exactly was taking place over there.  Kerry, was taking information largely collected and told to him by other Vets.

Well, again, there's little to prove that anything near the extent he talked about actually occurred. I'm sure he heared some of it, but the whole "Thousands" and "Daily Basis" are horrible mistruths.

 

And to note, of the 'many' brave soldiers, there were high-profile soldiers who had never served and were just acting for the Peace Movement (I believe in the same hearings that Kerry was apart of).

Who is to say they were "mistruths" according to what documents or NEWS source? All you have done is called Kerry a liar over and over again, but shown little if nothing to back it up other then "well he is worse liar then SVBT"

BOS's own article cites a very reputable book (Damn site is down, I can't remember the title of it), coupled with the fact that he even ADMITS that he embellished this, is why I call him a liar. There is little in the way of actually proving that anything NEAR the scale he said occurred in Vietnam. There literally is no proof. Everything cited in the article BOS posted says that attrocities occurred, but nothing more. If you have actual proof other than Oliver Stone movies, I'd really like to see it.

 

Also, I am not just referring to soldiers that testified besides Kerry, rather the many that were talking about these issues before Kerry even came back. This was no "John Kerry's revolution" as the SVBT would like to paint it. Kerry was one of many, and I am sorry that you don't like it, but if you are soldier and you have witnessed atrocities, it is beyond brave and courageous to come home and speak out against wrong doings and such horrible things going on during war. I don't care if they weren't on the level of "Ghengis Kahn".

 

Lord, you do know that some of the "courageous soldiers" that testified with Kerry never made it to Vietnam, and essentially lied through their teeth, right? I'm not saying it's wrong to speak out about attrocities; I have no problem at all with that. But to lie about them (Embellishing to an extreme degree is untruthful and lying, yes) is not courageous. When your lies force men to sign off contracts saying they are war criminals, you aren't being courageous. If you don't recognize that Kerry, through his gross exaggeration, basically dishonored thousands of soldiers, your blind.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

From the previous article:

 

"Hundreds" of others: In December 2003 The New York Times quoted  Nicholas Turse, a doctoral candidate at Columbia University who has been studying government archives, as saying the records are filled with accounts of atrocities similar to those described by the Toledo Blade series. "I stumbled across the incidents The Blade reported," Turse was quoted as saying. "I read through that case a year, year and a half ago, and it really didn't stand out. There was nothing that made it stand out from anything else. That's the scary thing. It was just one of hundreds."

"Exact Same Stories": Keith Nolan, author of 10 published books on Vietnam, says he's heard many veterans describe atrocities just like those Kerry recounted from the Winter Soldier event. Nolan told FactCheck.org that since 1978 he's interviewed roughly 1,000 veterans in depth for his books, and spoken to thousands of others. "I have heard the exact same stories dozens if not hundreds of times over," he said. "Wars produce atrocities.  Frustrating guerrilla wars produce a particularly horrific number of atrocities.  That some individual soldiers and certain units responded with excessive brutality in Vietnam shouldn't really surprise anyone."