Guest Vitamin X Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Here's something to chew on: If he had went for the touchdown and came up dry, would we be sitting here, arguing that he should have went for the field goal? Or would we be sitting here saying "well, they took their best shot, it just wasn't meant to be"? The only reason the field goal even enters the mind, in my opinion, is because that's what Cowher chose to do. It just seems far too intuitive to go for the touchdown to me. I was thinking the same thing as I put my .02 into the subject, but concluded that it wouldn't have netted him the backlash that going for the FG did, again, because of the score and situation in the game. There are altogether usually three different things that dictate what your next playcall will be: 1. Down and distance 2. The score 3. The amount of time left in the game/clock management It's 4th and 2 and the Pats had been playing amazing run defense the whole game, but all of a sudden your offense has woken up along with your home crowd that's rocking. The most important part here however, is #2, which, I hate to keep stating this over and over, but kicking a FG has the same effect as being stopped on 4th down. You kick a FG (and remember kickers have missed from less than 20 yards, so that's not even a gimme.. I'd point out Ryan Longwell's embarassing miss at the end of the first half from the Packers-Vikings playoff game as an example) or you don't score any points, it doesn't matter. 11 points still says you have to at minimum, make 3 scoring plays: Another FG, a TD, and the 2 point conversion to go with the TD. If the Pats were up by 13, that would be a different story and the right call to make. But 11 points makes it a 2 score game. Especially with less than 14 minutes to go in the game, you need to do whatever possible to put the game in your favor. I don't know about that. If they were pinned down at the 2, the Patriots may have taken the safety anyway. The Steelers would have still needed at least two TD's to win, even with the safety, and I can't imagine Belichick giving his streaking opponent possibly great field position should the punt get blocked or the Steelers have a good return. I could be totally off base(as it would take it from a situation where the Steelers need two TD's to tie the game to needing two to win the game) about that, but I remember the media patting Belichick on the back awhile ago for his "situational coaching" skills by pulling a similar move in a game. I know what you're talking about, and I remember that MNF game where Belichick was endlessly praised for taking the enormous risk and having it work in his favor. I had forgotten what the circumstances were in that game that made it so effective, though, but I know it had to do with the 3 essentials I spelled out above that enabled the Pats to get the ball back quickly. Being down by 14 points, anything that'll chip away at the lead would help if the TD fails, but the important part is that the Steelers get the ball back and another chance to score, thus negating the change New England has of running the clock. Being down at the 2 with the score the way it was, you would have seen NE probably play against the clock and just take 3 straight running plays, if that didn't net them a first down, they would punt the ball and give the Steelers the ball back in far worse field position and with less time on the clock. But that's nothing compared to what happened, which was that Pittsburgh put absolutely no faith in their offense (remember veteran players and rookies alike LIVE for this kind of stuff in the playoffs), kicked a FG which did absolutely nothing, and then gave the Pats better field position by kicking off and giving New England the ball at a much better spot than the 2, I can tell you that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 FOXBORO, Mass. -- New England quarterback Tom Brady had a 103-degree fever the night before the Patriots beat the Pittsburgh Steelers in the AFC championship game, Sports Illustrated reported. The magazine said in this week's issue that Brady had an intravenous line in his left -- non-throwing -- arm on Saturday night while fighting off chills in his Pittsburgh hotel room. In outdoor temperatures of 11 degrees, Brady threw for two touchdowns with no interceptions to lead the Patriots to a 41-27 victory and their third Super Bowl appearance in four years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Czech Republic 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 OMG HIS TEMPERTURE WAS AS HOT AS HIS BODY AND HIS GAME!!!! ESPNLOL2005!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 With 2 yards to go there is too much of a risk for failyure especially against NE. Okay, then let's do some risk analysis. First, before we consider all of the possibilities, let's establish how we want to measure success. The bare minimum that the Steelers should want to shoot for is to tie the ballgame up on the last play of the game (clock = 0:00) - anything better than that is just gravy. So, in terms of probability, that particular scenario would give both New England and Pittsburgh a 50% chance of winning the game going into overtime. At the 4th down play, the Steelers were down by 14 points. If we say that every point that the Steelers would score would increase their probability of winning by 2%, that means that - at that moment in the game - the Steelers had a 22% chance of winning the game; this seems pretty intuitive to me - the Steelers had an outside shot, but they were going to have to make some serious plays to pull it off. The other factor the Steelers had to overcome was the clock: at the 4th down play at the 2, they had 13:45 left on the clock. If we consider the scenario where neither the Steelers and the Patriots score anything for the remainder of the game, that means that the 13:45 that would elapse on the clock would reduce the Steelers probability of winning the game to 0% (they can't win the game if there's behind in points and there's no time left). That means the time on the clock (825 seconds) is equal to 22% of the Steelers' probability to win the game; after we do some crazy math, which I'm not going to throw down here (the post is already a novella), we find that each minute that passes reduces the Steelers chance of winning/tying by 1.6% So, to review: - every point the Steelers score = +2.0% - every point the Patriots score = -2.0% - every minute off the clock = -1.6% Now, let's consider the possibilities and apply the appropriate weights - for the sake of brevity, I'll abbreviate the list of possibilities into three minute intervals: Field Goal Block: PIT miss FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 3 minutes = -4.8 PIT miss FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 6 minutes = -9.6 PIT miss FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 9 minutes = -14.4 PIT miss FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 12 minutes = -19.2 PIT miss FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 3 minutes = -10.8 PIT miss FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 6 minutes = -15.6 PIT miss FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 9 minutes = -20.4 PIT miss FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 12 minutes = -25.2 PIT miss FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 3 minutes = -18.8 PIT miss FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 6 minutes = -23.6 PIT miss FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 9 minutes = -28.4 PIT miss FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 12 minutes = -33.2 PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 3 minutes = +2.8 PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 6 minutes = -3.6 PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 9 minutes = -8.4 PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 12 minutes = -13.2 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 3 minutes = -4.8 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 6 minutes = -9.6 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 9 minutes = -14.4 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 12 minutes = -19.2 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 3 minutes = -12.8 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 6 minutes = -17.6 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 9 minutes = -22.4 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 12 minutes = -27.2 Number of positive possibilities: 1 Total number of possibilities: 24 Probability of increasing chances to tie with FG: 4.1% Touch Down Block: PIT miss FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 3 minutes = -4.8 PIT miss TD, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 6 minutes = -9.6 PIT miss TD, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 9 minutes = -14.4 PIT miss TD, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 12 minutes = -19.2 PIT miss TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 3 minutes = -10.8 PIT miss TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 6 minutes = -15.6 PIT miss TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 9 minutes = -20.4 PIT miss TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 12 minutes = -25.2 PIT miss TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 3 minutes = -18.8 PIT miss TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 6 minutes = -23.6 PIT miss TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 9 minutes = -28.4 PIT miss TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 12 minutes = -33.2 PIT gets TD, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 3 minutes = +9.2 PIT gets TD, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 6 minutes = +4.4 PIT gets TD, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 9 minutes = -0.4 PIT gets TD, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 12 minutes = -5.2 PIT gets TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 3 minutes = +3.2 PIT gets TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 6 minutes = -1.6 PIT gets TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 9 minutes = -6.4 PIT gets TD, NE gets FG on drive of less than 12 minutes = -11.2 PIT gets TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 3 minutes = -4.8 PIT gets TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 6 minutes = -9.6 PIT gets TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 9 minutes = -14.4 PIT gets TD, NE gets TD on drive of less than 12 minutes = -19.2 Number of positive possibilities: 3 Total number of possibilities: 24 Probability of increasing chances to tie with TD: 12.5% By using this, we can see that Cowher reduced his team's chance of tying by 8.4% by taking the FG instead of the touchdown (12.5% versus 4.1%). However, you're probably thinking - a 50/50 chance on field goals? No way! So, let's even take out all of the possibilities where the Steelers miss the FG - that's the impetus of the conservative strategy, right? Guaranteed points over risk? Field Goal Block (no misses) PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 3 minutes = +2.8 PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 6 minutes = -3.6 PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 9 minutes = -8.4 PIT gets FG, NE held scoreless on drive of less than 12 minutes = -13.2 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 3 minutes = -4.8 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 6 minutes = -9.6 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 9 minutes = -14.4 PIT gets FG, NE gets FG on drive of less than 12 minutes = -19.2 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 3 minutes = -12.8 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 6 minutes = -17.6 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 9 minutes = -22.4 PIT gets FG, NE gets TD on drive of less than 12 minutes = -27.2 Number of positive possibilities: 1 Total number of possibilities: 12 Probability of increasing chances to tie with "automatic" FG: 8.3% Even if you consider the field goal to be automatic, going for the field goal reduces the chance for the Steelers to win/tie by 4.2% (12.5% versus 8.3%). Probability states that the touchdown yielded a greater reward that outweighs the risks that faced Pittsburgh for the rest of the game. QED Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Statistics don't account for momentum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Statistics don't account for momentum. Frankly, if you bring momentum (omg intangiblez) into play, that makes the case for the touchdown even stronger: there's only one case where taking the field goal positively impacts the Steelers' chances of winning the game. The players probably knew it - the fans, who booed them off the field, certainly did. Why do I feel like I'm proving the existence of gravity here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Hahahaha. You made my point better than I did. Very nice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 QED Somebody's studied mathematics Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vitamin X Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Holy fuck, MiB officially has no life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smh810 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 I would dissect that post but God Damn MIB you put effort into that and I gotta give it up for ya. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Failed Mascot Report post Posted January 26, 2005 MiB has been doing stuff like this at SNKT for a looooooong time. Its what made SNKT going down TSM's gain. I was happy to see him posting more in the sports forum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 I don't think momentum accounts for much of anything. Shouldn't the momentum of driving down to the four have carried the team across the goalline within 3 downs? What happens if the Patriots stuff the play? Does momentum carry onto their side? It's an easy term to throw around, but it doesn't really MEAN anything. The problem with these scenarios is that they do not take into account that the Touchdown is harder to attain than the field goal. Of course the touchdown increases the chance to win. That's obvious. But the touchdown also carries risk. A field goal is worse than a touchdown, but better than no score at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Holy fuck, MiB officially has no life. What? It took like 30 minutes, if even that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vitamin X Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Seems like a whole lot of effort to basically just prove what all of us have been saying over and over again in this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Man in Blak 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 The problem with these scenarios is that they do not take into account that the Touchdown is harder to attain than the field goal. Of course the touchdown increases the chance to win. That's obvious. But the touchdown also carries risk. A field goal is worse than a touchdown, but better than no score at all. If you consider the second part of the analysis ("automatic FG" vs. 50/50 TD), the probability still wins out. And, frankly, I don't think it's unrealistic to presume a 50% success rate for a touchdown from the two yard line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 pR 0p4 3T1c1 n 3: I understand that you don't let the crowd dictate your choice, but there's a big difference between a raucous, to quote TMQ experimental scramjet volume crowd, and a dead crowd with still two scores to make up. pR 0p4 3T1c1 n 3: But you know what? Cowher wasn't showing that he had no faith in his offense. pR 0p4 3T1c1 n 3: He was clearly showing that he had no faith in his defense pR 0p4 3T1c1 n 3: because the idea was that he expected to let up a FG pR 0p4 3T1c1 n 3: it'd still be a 14 point margin pR 0p4 3T1c1 n 3: but that's stupid, because if your defense can't stop them, how are you gonna make up a two score deficit? ^^^ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Failed Mascot Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Tyler is AIMing himself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 I think really that too much is made of the FG. The Steelers ultimately did not lose because they went for a FG instead of a touchdown. They lost because they failed to stop the Patriots on the ensuing drive. And say what you will about the crowd, but if a professional football team, filled with the best players in the world, can not operate without the noise of a bunch of drunken yahoos in seats, forgive me if I find it hard to believe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KingPK 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 I froze when Cowher took the FG.....ok, that joke's played itself out. I have nothing else to add after all of this, only that it did show that Cowher had no faith in a RB that had, what, 8 TDs from inside the 5? Even if they don't get it, you put the Pats in a VERY bad position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smh810 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Everybody knows that I think Cowher made the right move regarding kicking the FG but there is one scneario that needs to be addressed. The notion that Belichick would have voluntarily given the Steelers two points had they been backed up on the 2 is beyond absurd. The Monday Night game in Denver in 2003 was under completely different circumstances than that of the AFC Title Game. The Pats were trailing 24-23 with under 3 minutes to go and backed up on their 1 yard line. Taking a safety in that situation was extremely intellegent because you were still trailing by just a FG and youre also relying on your defense to get a 3 and out in order to get the ball back with plenty of time remaining. (which of course happened and the Pats won the game) It was an extreme gamble but well worth it. Now in the AFC Title Game say the Pats stop them on 4th down and get the ball on the 2 or 3. If Belichick voluntarily takes a safety there that makes the score 31-19 and you probably put Pittsburgh in good field position with a tired defense that just got off the field and approximately 11-12 minutes to go. (FYI: In that situation its 4 down territory EVERYWHERE for Pittsburgh and taking a FG under any circumstances is unacceptable IMO.) There by it is an unnecessary risk for them to take by giving Pittsburgh a free two points and I dont think the Pats do that. As I've said before had the Steelers gone for it and failed I think the Pats would have been unfazed by the crowd noise and killed more time than they did on the drive following the FG. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HarleyQuinn 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 If the Pats had stopped them, all they would have to do was hit a quick slant over the middle to get 3-6 yards and suddenly it's 2nd and 7 at worse or 2nd and 4 from their own 5 or 8 yard line, allowing them to run Dillon once to pick up an additional 2-4 yards leading them to a short 3rd down. If the Pats then manage to convert that 3rd down(or get the 1st down), they can just kill 6-7 minutes off the clock while continuing their drive down the field. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vitamin X Report post Posted January 26, 2005 This is, of course, assuming that the Steelers don't get the score, and it's still a 98 yard drive to get a TD, at least 60 or so just to get in FG range. I just don't see how you can logically argue against it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 I think really that too much is made of the FG. The Steelers ultimately did not lose because they went for a FG instead of a touchdown. They lost because they failed to stop the Patriots on the ensuing drive. And say what you will about the crowd, but if a professional football team, filled with the best players in the world, can not operate without the noise of a bunch of drunken yahoos in seats, forgive me if I find it hard to believe. But the FG kept them in the game at the time. Had they gone for it on 4th Down and failed, the game would have been over. It ended up not mattering because they let the Patriots score again on the next drive as you said, and that is why they lost. They would have lost had the Steelers scored a TD too, because they needed to stop the Pats and they couldn't do it. You bring the game within 11 points when you have the chance. A FG & a TD+2 would tie the game. From a mathematical perspective it was the right call. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripper 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Its ridiculous to disregard momentuem. You make a comeback by punching it in from the 2 in the 4th, down 1 touchdown and your team is hype, fans or not. This happens ALL the time. you see it on the ensuing kickoff where the special teams has more energy and is all pumped up after the tackle, the defense is incredibly pumped after every play and are going at 1000 miles per hour. Instead, you got the "we aren't really excited" helmet slap after the field goal, which was following a dejected offense walking off the field with the knowledge that their coach had no faith in them. You got a pretty pedestrian tackle and leave the field from the special teams. The life was sucked out of the team with that. Saying momemtum doesn't play a part in a win is like saying confidence doesn't and we all know that many a more talented team have lost to the more confident team. I mean, its all over and done with now, so I guess it is spilled milk, but its is fairly obvious that cutting a game to 7 is the decision to make. Even if you don't make it, at least you left it all on the field instead of being conservative....at the 2....in a 14 point game...in the playoffs....at home... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2005 Momentum and confidence may play roles in sports, I really don't know. But all too often, they are simply terms sportswriters throw about because its easier than actually sitting down and making an objective analysis of the game. Did the team come back from 21 points down because they made adjustments, or because they had "momentum?" Which one is easier to explain in a column? Confidence? When exactly is the more talented team the less confident one? That's a VERY obscure explanation for anything that happens, and I don't buy it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites