Wild Pegasus vs. Lionheart

[The Tino Standard 0]

The "COME ON MOTHERFUCKER" quote is classic.

 

I hope he does it on Raw.

After the double-DQ on Monday, he kinda did. Jericho was standing in the ring, looking toward the aisle, barking at the ref, and I distinctly read "motherfucker" and "that's a bunch of bullshit" coming from his mouth.

[iliketurtles 0]

The "COME ON MOTHERFUCKER" quote is classic.

 

I hope he does it on Raw.

After the double-DQ on Monday, he kinda did. Jericho was standing in the ring, looking toward the aisle, barking at the ref, and I distinctly read "motherfucker" and "that's a bunch of bullshit" coming from his mouth.

Yeah, I noticed that too.

 

I bet Grenier did something to fuck up that match.

 

At least he's the b est one to blame it on.

[Guest wildpegasus]

So when's Raw going to be taped?

[Guest FromBeyondTheGrave]

I bet Grenier did something to fuck up that match.

 

At least he's the best one to blame it on.

How dare you.

[Guest wildpegasus]

From wwe.com

 

 

 

Jericho and Benoit gear up for a Japan Tap-Fest

January 31, 2005

By Anthony Cali

 

SAN JOSE, CA – Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit have been friends and foes, partners and opponents. Next week in Japan, they will square off once again, only this time a winner won’t be declared until one of them taps out.

 

Two weeks ago in Toronto, Jericho defeated Benoit in a “friendly” showdown. This Monday night, the two were in a tag-team match, and tried to unseat La Resistance for the World Tag Team Titles. Their effort wasn’t enough, and the contest ended in a double-disqualification.

 

Following their match, Benoit and Jericho got into a heated argument . In turn, Raw GM Eric Bischoff announced a Submission Match between the two Hart Dungeon trainees for next week on Raw. One would think a match of this caliber would take weeks to months of special training, but according to Jericho, the preparation is pretty simple.

 

"There’s no real special way to prepare,” Jericho told WWE.com about his upcoming match in Japan. “We already know each other’s plans of attack. I mean we’ve wrestled each other and tagged together seemingly a thousand times. So it’s very simple. It’s the Walls of Jericho vs. the Crippler Crossface. Whoever gets caught in the other ' s hold first loses. There’s no way to prepare for that.”

 

Being that both maneuvers have won their respective Superstars World Titles, it’s hard to choose which is the more potent of the two. Naturally, both Jericho and Benoit have differing opinions over whose submission maneuver is better.

 

"Of course , I’m going to say that the Walls are,” Jericho said with authority. "That’s a crazy question. If I didn’t think that I could make Benoit submit to my Walls of Jericho, then why would I even bother showing up next week? Once the Walls are locked in, it will be over.”

 

"They’re both very potent,” Benoit said from a separate location, “but you know I’d have to say that the Crippler Crossface is more potent, and much tougher to withstand. I’m sure that Jericho thinks the same thing about the Walls, so there’s really only one way to find out, and thanks to Eric Bischoff, everyone will know for sure next Monday in Japan.”

 

When Jericho and Benoit last faced each other in Toronto, they were simply wrestling in a battle for the spirit of competition. However , after seeing their anger towards one another following their double-DQ against to La Resis t ance, it would seem as though their next encounter will be a little more personal.

 

"I just think that because of our history, and the competitiveness between us, that we match up well,” Benoit added. “We may have tagged tonight, but we’ll face each other next week, and I’m anxiously looking forward to the battle.”

 

"Obviously it’s never friendly when we face each other,” Jericho said. “Yet at the same time, we’re not going to go out there and hit each other over the head with chairs or anything. We’re going back to the dungeon, just like we did last time. This is a wrestling match. It’s not about good vs. evil, or ladders and chairs, or even a title. It’s a wrestling match between two guys who are the best at what they do – two former World Champions, two graduates of the Dungeon. Honestly, you can’t really ask for more of a technical wrestling match than what you’re going to see here next week.”

[nl5xsk1 0]

It's so surreal to see wwe.com refer to the dungeon, especially when they refer to it by name (Hart) ... considering the whole screwjob and what happened to Owen, you'd think that the Hart name would be verboten in wwe-land.

 

"Obviously it’s never friendly when we face each other,” Jericho said. “Yet at the same time, we’re not going to go out there and hit each other over the head with chairs or anything. We’re going back to the dungeon, just like we did last time. This is a wrestling match. It’s not about good vs. evil, or ladders and chairs, or even a title. It’s a wrestling match between two guys who are the best at what they do – two former World Champions, two graduates of the Dungeon. Honestly, you can’t really ask for more of a technical wrestling match than what you’re going to see here next week.”

the parts that I bolded remind me of why I used to like wrestling ... it didn't have to be about a title shot or some stupid angle (shampoo commercial? cup of coffee getting spilled?) ... just two guys that think that they're the best trying to prove it.

[Jericholic82 0]

I enjoyed their match at Judgment Day 2000. It had some good pyscholgoy (except for when Benoit forgot about his injured knee) and cool looking visuals like Jerichos tarantula like walls applied in the ropes and the ending where benoit basically choked out jericho (his face even turned red toward the end of it )

 

hope this match get some time, but hey I dont want to be a typcial smark and complain about everything here.

 

RAW might just be a cant-miss show for once

 

 

 

 

 

 

woohoo 900 posts

 

Turns on Evolution music and poses (shoutout to dames there)

[pochorenella 0]

It's so surreal to see wwe.com refer to the dungeon, especially when they refer to it by name (Hart) ... considering the whole screwjob and what happened to Owen, you'd think that the Hart name would be verboten in wwe-land.

They mention the Hart Dungeon all the time, on PPVs and on RAW. They've mentioned Stu Hart several times, and even mentioned the "Legendary Bret Hart" a few times, too.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Well, wht did everyone think of the match. Overall, I thought it was very good.

 

 

Just some random thoughts --

 

 

They brought my favourite word to this match. Intensity! Always a plus. The fighting for holds was the best part of the match. Watch the fight at the very end where Jericho's trying to grip his hands together (I think he gets them gripped once), Benoit's fighting with his legs and Jericho's giving all he's got by not going down to the mat and sitting back up somewhat. Gotta work those obliques. Superb.

 

The chain wrestling at the beginning was pretty sweet.

 

The spot where Jericho drilled Benoit's face into his head followed by a clothesline was nice. Jericho trying to do the same thing two hit combo where he puts Benoit's jaw into the turnbuckle followed by another clothesline only for it to be countered was very nice.

 

Benoit and Jericho brought a lot of cool reversals here. I really wish the WWE would let the wrestlers open up their movesets because if Benoit and Jericho can think up all these counters for their WWE moveset than imagine all the neat stuff they could think of for other holds as well.

 

 

Jericho still hasn't put on the liontamer yet. Now, Benoit's not selfish in matches so one might say that's why it wasn't put on but it really seems like they're saving up for the final blowoff match. It'd also be cool if that aspect gets built into their following matches.

 

I don't feel like saying anything negative so I'm not going to!

[Tawren 0]

Benoit/Jericho was good. I liked how they made the match look like a struggle the whole way through. There was something seriously off, though. Jericho couldn't lock on a freaking octopus, Benoit couldn't get on the crossface and it looked like a terrible choke, and there was a really weird feeling here. I loved the asai moonsault -> knees up to block -> lands on his feet -> Walls of Jericho. Overall, not as good as their submission match in 2000, nowhere near as good as any of their other matches against each other, but still fun.

[Precious Roy 0]

Well, wht did everyone think of the match. Overall, I thought it was very good.

 

The work was excellent, as expected from those two, but it was SUCH a fucking tease. No way in hell a submission match should be so short, and Jericho got like no offense in.

 

There's only two ways they can justify this match being so short. 1) It leads to a shift in Jericho's character to being more badass, and 2) It's building to a LONG match at Wrestlemania, which puts it in the "leave them wanting more" category if they're going to try and sell Mania to the workrate crowd on this match

[Precious Roy 0]

And good point on Jericho not getting the liontamer yet. IF he goes over in the blowoff by liontamer submission it should be a huge deal, as Benoit NEVER taps out (unless the Rock steals the crossface ), but the follow up with Jericho would probably negate whatever rub he gets from that

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I thought it was pretty shit.

 

Their mat wrestling was bad (they did much better work in TO) by almost any standard. There was constant poor execution of moves, from two guys who are supposed to be 'technicians'. They both got winded 4 or 5 minutes in. Are you trying to tell me, Chris Benoit, a guy who went 60+ minutes in the Royal Rumble, who went 60 minutes in an Ironman match against HHH, gets tired after 5 minutes? The WWE was trying to pack a 20 minute match and that big match formula in a 10 minute match, and it doesn't work (and it's not just this match either). Either give the match time where it makes sense for them to be tired, or have them go balls out right away to establish a reason for them to get tired, or don't do it. There is no reason to believe those guys are done after 5 minutes. It's also a pointless feud at this juncture, which is something I fear for both guys because no one is going to get over if they aren't fighting for a reason... or "they want to test each others skills"? *groan* How do the fans get behind that? Especially since their skills aren't very skillful. Bust out lots of new shit, evolve, and show how skilled they are and maybe it could work. Tiring out after 5 minutes is not reflective of any of that.

[Precious Roy 0]

^

sad but true

[cameron chaos 0]

It was interesting seeing Benoit doing the Nagata version of the crossface rather than his own, perhaps as the Japanese crowd are more familiar with it, and then to finish a screwy shoulderlock with his legs rather than locking the arm out straight for the crossface. I can't tell if it was to ephasise Benoit having to modify his moveset or simply the fact he really can't put on his own finisher correctly anymore (God knows how many times Jericho or Edge have had to keep their hands on the mat next to his legs because he can't remember to trap the arm... it just looks bad). It had some nice spots and psychology thrown in but otherwise was uneven and sloppy at without enough time to develop.

 

Considering the matches they have had in the past and the uneven booking both have been receiving as of late, I really can't find myself excited to watch them clash again in a feud when they've done much better stuff elsewhere as well as before in the WWE, before they got jaded and their movesets evaporated. I'm all for decent matches, but I am also for fresh matches and feuds that weren't much better 5 years ago, before the talent involved got restricted by injuries and company policies.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I thought it was pretty shit.

 

Their mat wrestling was bad (they did much better work in TO) by almost any standard. There was constant poor execution of moves, from two guys who are supposed to be 'technicians'. They both got winded 4 or 5 minutes in. Are you trying to tell me, Chris Benoit, a guy who went 60+ minutes in the Royal Rumble, who went 60 minutes in an Ironman match against HHH, gets tired after 5 minutes? The WWE was trying to pack a 20 minute match and that big match formula in a 10 minute match, and it doesn't work (and it's not just this match either). Either give the match time where it makes sense for them to be tired, or have them go balls out right away to establish a reason for them to get tired, or don't do it. There is no reason to believe those guys are done after 5 minutes.

I liked this better than Toronto. There was more of a fight and struggle to it. Especially the struggle at the end which I loved.

 

 

THe mat work was great which I also preffered to Toronto except for around the time Jericho nailed the half adominal stretch and they did that sequence where Jericho went for an attempted STF - went into the 1 legged Boston Crab and Benoit tried a counter with the sharpshooter. I thought they might've been going for the struggling root but I think something might've happened there. What, I don't know. Maybe Jericho was dazed from the headbutts?

 

 

Yeah, the tired bit which I'm definitely not a fan of can be annoying in the shorter matches trying to be longer matches but I really didn't think it was too bad here at all.

 

 

 

Benoit couldn't get on the crossface and it looked like a terrible choke

 

The crossface is supposed to be like that now. Just another WWE style adjustment. I don't thnk you're allowed to pull back on the head anymore. The way Benoit had the crossface on at the very end I really liked though as it emphasized the wicked struggle they were going through at the end.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

And good point on Jericho not getting the liontamer yet. IF he goes over in the blowoff by liontamer submission it should be a huge deal, as Benoit NEVER taps out (unless the Rock steals the crossface ), but the follow up with Jericho would probably negate whatever rub he gets from that

Angle made him tap at Rumble 2003.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I liked this better than Toronto. There was more of a fight and struggle to it. Especially the struggle at the end which I loved.

 

The only thing I didn't like about the TO match was the shit finish. That had more struggle in the mat work than this.

 

THe mat work was great which I also preffered to Toronto except for around the time Jericho nailed the half adominal stretch and they did that sequence where Jericho went for an attempted STF - went into the 1 legged Boston Crab and Benoit tried a counter with the sharpshooter. I thought they might've been going for the struggling root but I think something might've happened there. What, I don't know. Maybe Jericho was dazed from the headbutts?

 

Dude, you are high. That mat work was horrible and useless. It was like 2 switches and then they stood up, and it looked very rehearsed. In Toronto they kept close and tight and it flowed so much better. Not the greatest mat work I've ever seen, and it wasn't the best mat work I saw _that week_ (http://fedor.bel.ru/video/yanagisawa/Emel_03_1.avi), but it was by far the best mat wrestling the WWE has done in the entire year.

 

Yeah, the tired bit which I'm definitely not a fan of can be annoying in the shorter matches trying to be longer matches but I really didn't think it was too bad here at all.

 

They looked dead 5 minutes in. It was bad.

 

 

The crossface is supposed to be like that now. Just another WWE style adjustment. I don't thnk you're allowed to pull back on the head anymore. The way Benoit had the crossface on at the very end I really liked though as it emphasized the wicked struggle they were going through at the end.

 

I love me some Benoit, but if it were intentional the King wouldn't have said it looked like a choke. Benoit should have won with an omoplata, that would have ruled.

[cameron chaos 0]

The crossface is supposed to be like that now. Just another WWE style adjustment. I don't thnk you're allowed to pull back on the head anymore. The way Benoit had the crossface on at the very end I really liked though as it emphasized the wicked struggle they were going through at the end.

 

I love me some Benoit, but if it were intentional the King wouldn't have said it looked like a choke. Benoit should have won with an omoplata, that would have ruled.

As I said above, it's possible the headlock variant of the crossface was used as Yuji Nagata has used it before and the Japanese fans are more familiar with that variation than Benoit's. Either that or Malenko really does need to show Benoit how to do the move properly.

 

RRR, I think that omoplata Benoit stumbled into out of the crossface in the TO match is as close as we'll get to seeing a legit submission (if we don't count the crap armbars some use and screwy toehold Angle does). The way Benoit had the arm trapped to finish was cranking the arm in an Americana of sorts so take some consolation in that.

[Precious Roy 0]

Benoit won their 2000 submission match with a crossface choke. I figured it was a nod to that, rather than Benoit *forgetting* how to apply the move. Give them a little more credit.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I won't.

 

I love me some Benoit, but he has been sloppy when it comes to applying his submissions.

[Guest Coffey]

I thought HBK Vs. Flair was a better match on the night if that tells you anything. The highlight of the night was Triple H's headstand to escaped the leg scissors though.

 

Jericho/Benoit seemed uninspired.

[razazteca 0]

Compared to everything else from RAW Benoit vs Jericho was a wrestling match from the gods. If anything it was a made for tv version of Benoit vs Regal from the 2000 Pillman Tribute show. I think the finisher deserves a name of its own maybe something like Crippler Choke, Benoit Stretch, or something with the year in it like Crossface 2k5.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I liked it but the TO match was better.

 

The intensity they brought to the table was inspired but wasted, which I suppose you can credit to the time limitations. The submissions themselves looked half-assed and I did not like the fact that Jericho managed to catch Benoit in stuff like the (shitty) octopus and the (shitty) half-crab but Benoit can't do much else besides the crossface. For embarrasments sake on Benoit's part we won't go into the attempted sharpshooter.

 

The matwork in TO was crisper and better paced, in this one it felt rehearsed and sloppy.

 

I liked the headbutt spot on the turnbuckle, Jericho's lionsault counter and Benoit going right for the shoulder on the diving headbutt.

 

They obviously have to find one more match of some kind (2/3 falls, methinks) to finish this up but I'm not sure if the fans will care all that much by then.

[cameron chaos 0]

Benoit won their 2000 submission match with a crossface choke. I figured it was a nod to that, rather than Benoit *forgetting* how to apply the move. Give them a little more credit.

The difference there was, correct me if I am wrong, Benoit applied the crossface the same way (hands clutched together) but the clutch was across the throat. On Raw, it looked more like a side headlock with a trapped arm than the Crippler Crossface or even the choke variation you mentioned.

[Just John 0]

I didn't really think the match was that great. It wasn't terrible, but it just seemed like a typical Raw match. Their JD 2000 submission match blows this one away.

 

My biggest complaint was the fact that they didn't try a lot of submissions. They tried to lock in their finishers, but only a couple other moves. They did a lot of high impact moves which doesn't really make sense in a submission match unless you're working a specific body part. There should have been more mat wrestling and unique holds, but instead we got an average match + an octopus.

[Guest Loss]

I'm surprised anyone is bashing the match as a bad match, even if there were flaws. I thought it was a very intense, very good match and was the nice (and logical) next progression in their "feud", although it may be a little early to call it that. As has been mentioned, Jericho has yet to lock the Walls in on Benoit, and I hope the announcers are eventually clued in as far as that goes, because it would make a nice final blowoff to the feud. The match may have been better without the submission gimmick, because in trying to establish parity, Benoit actually looks like the better wrestler at this point, considering he made Jericho submit and the previous match had Jericho getting a fluke pin. I loved the intensity and attention to detail here. I did think some of the matwork was sloppy, but the whole was greater than the sum of the parts, which is a quality every match should strive to achieve. I *still* preferred the Toronto match, and I do think this match needed double the time for everything to be sold as well as it deserved.

 

Perhaps what made the match seem a little off was that for probably the first time ever, Jericho outworked Benoit.

[cameron chaos 0]

Loss, if this makes any sense, it was a good match by current WWE standards but by the standard set by past Benoit/Jericho matches, it fell short. If they'd switched the times on the Jericho/Benoit and Akio/London match then things might have been better paced. Even under the time constraints though, they've managed to have decent matches before (I recall a RAW where Jericho ran the gauntlet with his IC belt and lost to Benoit in his last match of the night and the match to my recollection was solid). As good as Jericho vs Benoit matches can be, they've set themselves some lofty targets to try and equal which may not even be possible given neither are in the same condition or have the same drive as they did 4-5 years ago.

 

Also, maybe it's just me, but does no one else find it sad that 5 years later they are feuding these same guys over again, however this time round neither is going to gain anything from it? No wonder buyrates are down, who wants to see the same matches with the same guys they did half a decade ago?

[Guest Loss]

I agree that Benoit/Jericho, if it happens at all, should be a World title feud at this point, but they're actually _lower_ on the card than they were in 2000, where they were working second from the top most of the time. They've probably had better matches, they're both older and slower than they were the last go-round they had, and they've both had a lot of their offense stripped in the name of working WWE style. So yeah, I guess I do agree with your premise, although the layout and format of last night's match was not really a WWE-style match at all.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Benoit's Crossface has been almost chinlock esque for the past few weeks. At first I figured it was a case of one night and him having problems with certain wrestlers. But, it's been executed like that more than a couple of times now.