Letter to Meltzer about ROH

[Jingus 0]

Here's something amusing I pulled off of the DVDVR board, but I'm responding here cuz I'm not registered to post there and don't feel like doing so just for one thread. It's a letter that some guy wrote to Meltzer protesting all the awards ROH won in his year-end poll, and it's both kinda funny and spectacularly wrong-headed.

 

2004 Awards

On to the awards issue. I am, by no means a HHH fan, but for him, or anyone in spots 4 through 10 to be ranked below Samoa Joe, is a total outrage. We've seen this before, Dave, with the rabid ECW fans back in the mid '90's. Their product, their guys, were always superior, even when their mainstays were blowing spots left and right. Much like the ECW fans, the ROH fans have definitly drank the Kool-Aid. Remember when every ECW fan believed the Eliminators were the greatest tag team ever? Or when Tazz was this "tough guy", who the fans believed could choke out Dan Severn?

 

I hate how any independent wrestling company that happens to run shows in Philadelphia always gets compared to ECW. The only thing that ECW and ROH have in common is that both employed Devito in a crappy tag team.

 

Look what happened when those two examples were taken out of the ECW environment. I hate to say it, but they were total flops. Same with Public Enemy. In the context of an indy promotion, because that is all that ROH is, a struggling indie, Samoa Joe is good. If you ranked the most outstanding INDY wrestler of the year, he would probably rank right up there. But ask him to carry Raw every week for a year in solid matches, without stiffing someone, and see what would happen.

 

He has a small point here, Joe does tend to beat the holy hell out of his opponents. But anyone who accepts a match with him should definitely know that by now. And how is ROH, with the top crowd attendance and tape sales in indy wrestling, just a "struggling indie"?

 

Okay on to perhaps my biggest beef with the awards. Booker of the year going to Gabe Sapolsky. I had this debate after the Sabu show a few weeks ago, and everyone at the table, including one of the unheralded "bookers" of SMW agreed with me. A good booker is one who can (here's the cliche) make chicked salad out of chicken shit. He is also one who can get the casual fan to have an intrest in the product. Hard making chicken shit out of chicken salad out of chicken shit when you are using the best indy talent available.

Lets see Gabe book a show with an aging vet who doesn't want to bump, 4 guys straight out of wrestling school, none of which have gear, 3 guys that at least have gear but have only wrestled a handful of matches, and some more vets who refuse to do the job when asked. If you can book through that and still present a good show, then you are a qualified booker. Get those fans to come back again, and you are an awesome booker.

 

Ya know what? I've helped book a lot of shows exactly like that. It's not easy, and it's not fun, but it's probably nowhere near as hard as what the ROH bosses have to go through. Just making travel arrangements to bring in guys from all over the world is a nightmare. Plus you've got to try and avoid shitting all over the various angles that various workers have going in other major indies around the country, keep all the guys happy with each other (hard to do with some of the best indy workers alive, since they do tend to have egos), and keep the product from getting stale. I think Gabe and his team have done a tremendous job overall. Well... except for the commentary, which ROH just never seems to get right, but nobody's perfect.

 

Based on all the evidence, two men who should be at the top of the list for best booker are Paul E. and Jim Cornette. Every time Paul E. has the helm of Smackdown the numbers go up. For Jim Cornette, the guy is thrown curve balls every week, but still makes his TV entertaining and it makes sense. He worked around the Bashams, Eugene and Mark Magnus. He took Johnny Nitro, who everyone expected to be gone at this point, and made him someone people want to watch.

 

Well, it's hard to argue with the financial geniuses behind massively profitable companies like Smokey Mountain and ECW.

 

But then again you have all the ROH fans who have drank the Kool-Aid. I just feel bad for the mark who runs the promotion in Florida that was conned into having Sapolsky book for him. I guess keeping the title on a guy for over year qualifies you as best booker, but then again, this isn't the WWE title, or Triple Crown..it's an independent wrestling title for crying out loud!

 

Yeah, ROH hasn't always done the best things for its championship. (One word: Xavier.) But at least they've actually built it up pretty well and made it really mean something. Plus it gets defended in more countries than either the WWE or Triple Crown titles, so it technically is more of a World championship than either of those.

 

Also, for ROH to be second in promotion of the year... that is embarrassing. Run more then two show a month, and consistantly hit attendance in the 4 figures and then come back and tell me you are promotion of th year. Until then, draw your couple of hundred and put on your two shows a month.

 

Name me ANY promotion in America besides the WWE that regularly draws over 1,000 people. Hell, for paid attendance ROH probably outdraws TNA on a show-by-show basis.

 

I'll give Samoa Joe and C.M. Punk their due for having the strong matches, but put them in an enviornment where they are working 4 nights a week crisscrossing the country, and lets see if they hold up

 

Guess what, bunky: THEY DO. They work for ROH, IWA-MS, PWG, and any other company willing to hire them. Plus they've done tours in Japan, which is way more strenuous than the WWE's travelling schedule.

 

Name withheld by request

 

Ooh, tough guy.

[Guest Hass of Pain]

Ring of Honor is a struggling Indy. Even with their loyal fanbase and notoriety they are operating at a loss despite good attendance and DVD sales. I think that's why the author of the letter said that.

 

I agree with him on points and agree with you on some points. It's totally a cop-out to defend Samoa Joe's style just by saying that his opponents know his reputation before they get in the ring with him. The guy, in his current form, couldn't work a full time house show and television schedule with the same opponent because there's a good chance he would end up injuring/crippling the guy just to get himself over. I think the extreme strong style is a pretty cheap way to get popular in some ways, and Joe is definitely good all around, but when a lot of these guys end up with permanent injuries I won't be suprised and I think the author of the letter was kind of getting at this too.

[Guest FromBeyondTheGrave]

DON'T DRINK THE KOOL-AID.

[Jingus 0]

Ring of Honor is a struggling Indy. Even with their loyal fanbase and notoriety they are operating at a loss

Anyone have the actual numbers?

 

It's totally a cop-out to defend Samoa Joe's style just by saying that his opponents know his reputation before they get in the ring with him.

It'd be a cop-out if Joe was under contract for a major company who could force his opponents to wrestle him with the threat of losing their jobs or getting sued. But he works the indy circuit. If you get booked against Joe and you don't wanna wrestle him, you don't have to. Who cares if that one indy never returns your calls afterwards? There's a thousand more out there.

 

The guy, in his current form, couldn't work a full time house show and television schedule with the same opponent because there's a good chance he would end up injuring/crippling the guy just to get himself over.

His style is about 95% work. The Ole kicks rarely even make contact, the elbows aren't near as vicious as Misawa's or B-Boy's, chops don't do anything but sting your chest, and the suplexes are all the responsibility of the guy taking the bump.

 

Believe me, I used to hate Joe. I saw his earlier matches from a few years ago, and dismissed him as a no-talent, no-charisma stiff fuck. But he's improved a helluva lot in the past year or so.

 

I think the extreme strong style is a pretty cheap way to get popular in some ways

That is definitely true. It takes no talent to just forearm, kick, and chop a guy as hard as you can. Believe me, I know: I've used all of the above in some of my matches, and I certainly have no wrestling talent.

 

but when a lot of these guys end up with permanent injuries I won't be suprised and I think the author of the letter was kind of getting at this too.

But they haven't been ending up with permanent injuries. Who has? The usual suspects: high-flyers who dive onto concrete and roid rage cases who juice their muscles beyond their body's abilities to hold together. Kobashi isn't crippled because of taking (mostly worked) head bumps, he's crippled because his knees snapped after one too many moonsaults.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

I think the fact that so many people believe Joe to be this uber stiff worker just shows how good he's become.

[bob_barron 0]

Ring of Honor is a struggling Indy. Even with their loyal fanbase and notoriety they are operating at a loss despite good attendance and DVD sales. I think that's why the author of the letter said that.

 

I agree with him on points and agree with you on some points. It's totally a cop-out to defend Samoa Joe's style just by saying that his opponents know his reputation before they get in the ring with him. The guy, in his current form, couldn't work a full time house show and television schedule with the same opponent because there's a good chance he would end up injuring/crippling the guy just to get himself over. I think the extreme strong style is a pretty cheap way to get popular in some ways, and Joe is definitely good all around, but when a lot of these guys end up with permanent injuries I won't be suprised and I think the author of the letter was kind of getting at this too.

Do you even watch Joe's matches? Joe isn't Low Ki here. He's very good at making his moves look like they hurt a lot when they really don't.

 

As Jingus said, the Ole Kicks never even actually hit the guy. I don't know of any opponent Joe has injured.

 

Joe's a very well rounded worker and he doesn't just rely on making his chops make a loud noise to get over

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

As Jingus said, the Ole Kicks never even actually hit the guy. I don't know of any opponent Joe has injured.

As far as I know, besides Trent Acid....NO ONE has gotten hurt in Joe's matches. That wasn't Joe's fault either.....Acid injured his own ankle.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

The thing I find funny is that the guy talks about how ECW's workers were exposed when leaving ECW, and then goes on to suck Paul E's nuts by calling him a booking genius.

 

Booking genius? Definitely, in my opinion. Can he run a promotion by himself? No, because he failed math.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I read that letter and laughed a lot. For all the good points he makes, the guy writing the letter just comes off as being incredibly bitter over a 'struggling Indy' beating out WWE in the WON Awards.

[Guest sek69]

The guy does have a point on how fans of ROH tend to sound a lot like ECW fans circa 1995. Anyone who doesn't bow to their awesomeness gets ripped to shreds.

 

For the record, I'm not a ROH-hater, I'm just saying their fans tend to get real defensive.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

For the record, I'm not a ROH-hater, I'm just saying their fans tend to get real defensive.

Diehard fans of a promotion, any promotion, can get OTT with their reactions. While there are undoubtedly ROH fans like that, as there are WWE fans, NJPW fans, etc, it's inaccurate to make it seem like it's only a problem with ROH fans.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Name me ANY promotion in America besides the WWE that regularly draws over 1,000 people. Hell, for paid attendance ROH probably outdraws TNA on a show-by-show basis.

 

UFC.

 

Joe Silva is a better booker than Gabe. Look at what happened with the UFC 50 card and tell me he isn't.

[Jingus 0]

Uh... UFC isn't pro wrestling. (At least, it's not supposed to be.)

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You said "ANY promotion". If you want to clearify and say ANY pro wrestling promotion, go ahead. The WON awards considers UFC and PRIDE as pro wrestling, which is why Randy Couture, Wanderlei Silva, and Chuck Liddell get voted on in pro wrestling categories. In the context of this thread, which is someone writing in to Dave Meltzer in regards to his year end awards, I'd say it qualifies. I think it was absolute bullshit that Gabe got best booker over Joe Silva, considering that Silva turned out some amazing cards in 05, as-well-as having to deal with constant last minute pull-outs and also having to deal with the egos involved. Silva had way more shit to deal with and turned it into something positive, which is the true showing of a great booker. Meanwhile UFC gets 5x's less votes than ROH in best promotion, and Silva gets 20x's less votes than Gabe. That's absolutely ridiculous. Dana White gets 10x's less votes than Gabe in best promoter, yet draws 10x's more fans. It's a case of WON voters being complete fucking idiots when it comes to understanding what they're voting for. I love Samoa Joe, and I am not disputing anything in regards to him, but I agree with the sentiment of ROH getting knee-jerk votes because they get hyped beyond what's really there. The reality is their best draw is the WWE's and UFC's worst shows, worst draw, on the worst day of the year. Yet their promoter is better? Their promotion is better? And not only better 5x's, 10x's and 20x's better?

[Jingus 0]

You said "ANY promotion". If you want to clearify and say ANY pro wrestling promotion, go ahead.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

I've never understood Meltzer's insistance on claiming that MMA is a part of pro wrestling. It's not. Pro wrestling is fake. Mixed martial arts (in theory) is real. Wrestling feds and shootfight promoters should never compete for industry awards. (And yes, I know they fix some of the fights in PRIDE, but that's still the exception and not the rule).

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I agree. Meltzer is retarded on this issue. The man has such an insecurity about wrestling.