Spots that should've been the finish...

[Betty Houle 0]

I'm sure no one would agree with me but I liked the Jericho-Michaels finish as is. I'll argue that with my last breath!

[CanadianChick 0]

Out of curiousity Betty, why?

[Jericholic82 0]

well michaels did beat jericho on a fluke rollup. so its not like shawn was clearly made to look better than him. and the crowd seemd to like the finish. it was wrestlemania after all, and the face should always beat the heel clean there i believe. after the match, if jericho had truly hugged shawn and turned face then it would have been looked at differently I think. though I guess the end was meant to push jericho more as a heel

 

 

as far as no mercy 2001, the crowd response proved that they were not clamoring for a jericho heel turn, in fact that really liked him and wanted him to be the top guy. turning him heel was a bad move IMO but then again since they had mr helmsley coming back soon, I doubt they would let anyone get over as a main face unless your name was rock or austin

 

contrast that to today where the fans clearly wanted a batista turn and they got it.

 

you got to listen to your fans vince, and not just when its a big muscle head guy involved.

[Betty Houle 0]

Out of curiousity Betty, why?

First and foremost: I love Michaels and I wanted to see him win. That's my fan reason.

 

BUT if you want to examine it, it seemed liked the logical finish. Michaels was the babyface that won with just enough experience-over-youth. And it's not like he jobbed out Jericho with an easy superkick. That was countered so it took a surprise roll-up (a finish that I didn't see coming) for Michaels to win. Plus both guys looked strong during the match and Jericho got insane heat after the match.

 

If someone esle wanted to see Jericho win, that's fine though.

 

I think people tend to overthink things when they say that Michaels didn't "need" the win and Jericho did but whatever. To each their own!

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The best thing for business would have been for Jericho, the guy going on the road and supposedly one of the people meant to draw at house shows, to beat the guy who was only wrestling part time, and not going on the road to all the house shows. It was another high profile match against a top star that Jericho lost clean in the middle, which, regardless of any emotional attachment to the result, only solidified Jericho as someone who, not only can't win the big singles matches, but can't beat a part time wrestler to boot. While it may have been the sentimental choice for Michaels to win, business dictated that Jericho should have won.

[CanadianChick 0]

Maybe it's the Jericho mark in me, but smart business says this man should always be in the main events. I know it's a lot of "what ifs", but I really think WWE could have benefited from pushing Jericho to the moon. People care about him, he's great PR, he's a good interview and he's a good worker. Hell, they could still probably benefit from seriously getting behind him.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

They had their window of opportunity for Jericho to hit that superstar stratosphere the night he 'beat' Hunter for the belt. And then they cut his legs off in the main event. They had some chances after that to elevate him into the main event level; they superstar stratosphere window had long since closed. However, they blew their last real shot at it at No Mercy in 2001.

[Guest MikeSC]

Maybe it's the Jericho mark in me, but smart business says this man should always be in the main events. I know it's a lot of "what ifs", but I really think WWE could have benefited from pushing Jericho to the moon. People care about him, he's great PR, he's a good interview and he's a good worker. Hell, they could still probably benefit from seriously getting behind him.

Thing is, I think it's fairly obvious that Jericho has been mishandled even WORSE than RVD (Jericho not getting the belt in April 2000, jobbing to Hunter at Fully Loaded 2000, being stuck in endless programs with X-Pac and Kane, etc) and has managed to maintain overness and a semblance of being a legit contender.

 

However, can he be rebuilt enough to be considered a legitimate ME'er again? Is the damage beyond repair? Think about it, he's lost at 3 straight WM, he's lost at the last 2 SummerSlam --- WWE has jobbed him in a lot of big matches.

-=Mike

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Maybe it's the Jericho mark in me, but smart business says this man should always be in the main events. I know it's a lot of "what ifs", but I really think WWE could have benefited from pushing Jericho to the moon. People care about him, he's great PR, he's a good interview and he's a good worker. Hell, they could still probably benefit from seriously getting behind him.

Thing is, I think it's fairly obvious that Jericho has been mishandled even WORSE than RVD (Jericho not getting the belt in April 2000, jobbing to Hunter at Fully Loaded 2000, being stuck in endless programs with X-Pac and Kane, etc) and has managed to maintain overness and a semblance of being a legit contender.

 

However, can he be rebuilt enough to be considered a legitimate ME'er again? Is the damage beyond repair? Think about it, he's lost at 3 straight WM, he's lost at the last 2 SummerSlam --- WWE has jobbed him in a lot of big matches.

-=Mike

With at least a year of building, maybe he could be a credible main eventer, but I doubt it. I think the damage is beyond repair.

[Guest LooneyTune]

This is more of a hateful one... HHH pinning Foley at NWO 2000. I would've bet money on Foley kicking out at the end, but he didn't.

 

As for spots that should've ended the match... HIAC 98 (Mankind v. UT) was way too much over-kill. Mankind was dead after the bumps onto the thumbtacks, and the tombstone wasn't needed.

 

Angle/Shane KOTR 2001. Shane is practically out of it after Angle over-head suplexes Shane into the glass like 4 or 5 times, and then throws him through 1... and the match continues for another 5 minutes.

[Guest The Mandingo Warrior]

Warrior-Savage at Wrestlemania 7. If Warrior was going over, I think the press slam should have done it. Intead, savage kicked out, and warrior pinned him a few minutes later with a stupid flying shoulder tackle..

[Guest Rrrsh]

If you beleive that Jericho is dead as a Main Eventer, than the HHH fued killed him, not the HBK one. Overall, his HBK fued made him look smart and a smarmy bastard. In the HHH one, he was bitch to Steph and was viewed as a loser.

 

Also, the HBK match was a midcard fued. It wasn't a Main Event, so to say that of all the Jericho matches, THAT one should hsve been changed is just ignorant.

 

But, Jericho is not dead. Actually, you give him 3 weeks of a normal Top Face fued, he is INSTANTLY your #1 face. He has tremendous charisma with the fans and the truly want him to be sucsessful.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Warrior-Savage at Wrestlemania 7. If Warrior was going over, I think the press slam should have done it. Intead, savage kicked out, and warrior pinned him a few minutes later with a stupid flying shoulder tackle..

Savage kicking out of the splash shows how determined he was to keep himself in the match, and summoned all of his strength to kick out. Warrior winning with a "stupid shoulder tackle" had Savage just completely out of energy (a.kj.a the tank is empty), and had no fight left in him after a grueling 20 minute match.

 

It was probably the BEST ending possible, instead of the lame paint by numbers finish like you wanted it to be.

[CBright7831 0]

The finish to Rock v Jericho at NM was horrible beyond belief. The fans were dying to accept Jericho as a top guy, and after his LMS with Hunter back in July not being followed up on, this was about the last real chance for them to view Jericho as a top guy. The fans in the building were on the edge of their seat, clamoring for Jericho to win cleanly and have their faith in him vindicated. If The Rock had tapped out clean in the middle, which is what that entire arena wanted, they would have blown the roof off of the place, because that is the only finish they wanted. The match was MOTY-level as well. Instead, we got a screwjob finish, and the fans were told once and for all that Jericho can't win the big one on his own, and that's when all faith in him as being a top guy was lost. I seriously don't know how anyone with a brain can think that finish was in any way acceptable.

Rock/Jericho @ No Mercy and Triple H/Jericho LMS were a year and a half apart from each other.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The finish to Rock v Jericho at NM was horrible beyond belief. The fans were dying to accept Jericho as a top guy, and after his LMS with Hunter back in July not being followed up on, this was about the last real chance for them to view Jericho as a top guy. The fans in the building were on the edge of their seat, clamoring for Jericho to win cleanly and have their faith in him vindicated. If The Rock had tapped out clean in the middle, which is what that entire arena wanted, they would have blown the roof off of the place, because that is the only finish they wanted. The match was MOTY-level as well. Instead, we got a screwjob finish, and the fans were told once and for all that Jericho can't win the big one on his own, and that's when all faith in him as being a top guy was lost. I seriously don't know how anyone with a brain can think that finish was in any way acceptable.

Rock/Jericho @ No Mercy and Triple H/Jericho LMS were a year and a half apart from each other.

Already mentioned earlier in the thread.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Is it wrong to hate when people ignore an entire post to mention one tiny detail being left out? It's not like you said earlier that year, you said back in July, and could've accidentally left out the end like "July '00".

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Is it wrong to hate when people ignore an entire post to mention one tiny detail being left out? It's not like you said earlier that year, you said back in July, and could've accidentally left out the end like "July '00".

I guess some people like to bitch about the tiniest of details, and don't let the fact that the point was already brought up get in the way.

[eiker_ir 0]

If you beleive that Jericho is dead as a Main Eventer, than the HHH fued killed him, not the HBK one. Overall, his HBK fued made him look smart and a smarmy bastard. In the HHH one, he was bitch to Steph and was viewed as a loser.

 

Also, the HBK match was a midcard fued. It wasn't a Main Event, so to say that of all the Jericho matches, THAT one should hsve been changed is just ignorant.

 

But, Jericho is not dead. Actually, you give him 3 weeks of a normal Top Face fued, he is INSTANTLY your #1 face. He has tremendous charisma with the fans and the truly want him to be sucsessful.

 

i agree that with a decent build-up he could be the number 1 face easily. The fans love him and they still put him in multiple-wrestlers main events(S Series, E Chamber, etc) because they know the fans like him. They just refuse to push him for some reason.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If you beleive that Jericho is dead as a Main Eventer, than the HHH fued killed him, not the HBK one. Overall, his HBK fued made him look smart and a smarmy bastard. In the HHH one, he was bitch to Steph and was viewed as a loser.

 

Also, the HBK match was a midcard fued. It wasn't a Main Event, so to say that of all the Jericho matches, THAT one should hsve been changed is just ignorant.

 

But, Jericho is not dead. Actually, you give him 3 weeks of a normal Top Face fued, he is INSTANTLY your #1 face. He has tremendous charisma with the fans and the truly want him to be sucsessful.

If you beleive that Jericho is dead as a Main Eventer, than the HHH fued killed him, not the HBK one. Overall, his HBK fued made him look smart and a smarmy bastard. In the HHH one, he was bitch to Steph and was viewed as a loser.

 

Also, the HBK match was a midcard fued. It wasn't a Main Event, so to say that of all the Jericho matches, THAT one should hsve been changed is just ignorant.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, as it's the best argument against HBK winning that match.

 

The best thing for business would have been for Jericho, the guy going on the road and supposedly one of the people meant to draw at house shows, to beat the guy who was only wrestling part time, and not going on the road to all the house shows. It was another high profile match against a top star that Jericho lost clean in the middle, which, regardless of any emotional attachment to the result, only solidified Jericho as someone who, not only can't win the big singles matches, but can't beat a part time wrestler to boot. While it may have been the sentimental choice for Michaels to win, business dictated that Jericho should have won.

 

There was no reason bar sentimentality for HBK to win. It was best for business that Jericho win that match.

 

But, Jericho is not dead. Actually, you give him 3 weeks of a normal Top Face fued, he is INSTANTLY your #1 face.

 

He'll need much longer than 3 weeks to get over the near 5 years of bad and inconsistant booking to become #1 face. Sure, his pops might get louder, but people are still going to have it in the back of their minds that the rug is going to get pulled out from under him, and you can't overcome that in just 3 weeks.

[Guest Askewniverse]

Warrior-Savage at Wrestlemania 7. If Warrior was going over, I think the press slam should have done it. Intead, savage kicked out, and warrior pinned him a few minutes later with a stupid flying shoulder tackle..

Warrior didn't win with just "a stupid flying shoulder tackle." He won with three consecutive flying shoulder tackles after Savage crashed into the steel guard rail.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Don't forget the exhaustion. Savage had taken everything Warrior gave him, and came back for more, but by that point in the match, he wa D-O-N-E... if we are gonig to disect the match that is.

[Guest Rrrsh]

If you beleive that Jericho is dead as a Main Eventer, than the HHH fued killed him, not the HBK one. Overall, his HBK fued made him look smart and a smarmy bastard. In the HHH one, he was bitch to Steph and was viewed as a loser.

 

Also, the HBK match was a midcard fued. It wasn't a Main Event, so to say that of all the Jericho matches, THAT one should hsve been changed is just ignorant.

 

But, Jericho is not dead. Actually, you give him 3 weeks of a normal Top Face fued, he is INSTANTLY your #1 face. He has tremendous charisma with the fans and the truly want him to be sucsessful.

If you beleive that Jericho is dead as a Main Eventer, than the HHH fued killed him, not the HBK one. Overall, his HBK fued made him look smart and a smarmy bastard. In the HHH one, he was bitch to Steph and was viewed as a loser.

 

Also, the HBK match was a midcard fued. It wasn't a Main Event, so to say that of all the Jericho matches, THAT one should hsve been changed is just ignorant.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, as it's the best argument against HBK winning that match.

 

The best thing for business would have been for Jericho, the guy going on the road and supposedly one of the people meant to draw at house shows, to beat the guy who was only wrestling part time, and not going on the road to all the house shows. It was another high profile match against a top star that Jericho lost clean in the middle, which, regardless of any emotional attachment to the result, only solidified Jericho as someone who, not only can't win the big singles matches, but can't beat a part time wrestler to boot. While it may have been the sentimental choice for Michaels to win, business dictated that Jericho should have won.

 

There was no reason bar sentimentality for HBK to win. It was best for business that Jericho win that match.

 

But, Jericho is not dead. Actually, you give him 3 weeks of a normal Top Face fued, he is INSTANTLY your #1 face.

 

He'll need much longer than 3 weeks to get over the near 5 years of bad and inconsistant booking to become #1 face. Sure, his pops might get louder, but people are still going to have it in the back of their minds that the rug is going to get pulled out from under him, and you can't overcome that in just 3 weeks.

I agree with everything you said about Jericho winning. But I think far worse was done to Jericho than this fued. The buildup was good enough for you to look at other Jericho burials. But I agree that Jericho should have won.

 

A proper build of 3 weeks is something Jericho really has never had. So if Jericho goes over Edge and Orotn in back to back weeks leading up to a Title match, he will instantky get back the cred. He is the only guy that that can be said for, but a PROPER short build can do the trick.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Jericho beating Edge and Orton back to back won't mean a great deal with no follow up. A win, no matter how big it might seem on its own, doesn't have any lasting effect if it's treated as an afterthought. Jericho will need a lot more than a couple of big wins to get back his credibility, a lot more.

[Guest MikeSC]

Jericho beating Edge and Orton back to back won't mean a great deal with no follow up. A win, no matter how big it might seem on its own, doesn't have any lasting effect if it's treated as an afterthought. Jericho will need a lot more than a couple of big wins to get back his credibility, a lot more.

This begs a question: Everybody refers to Ron Garvin as one of the worst World Champs ever.

 

Does his utter burial after dropping the belt only make it seem worse?

 

He basically vanished after dropping the belt and was a secondary concern in the fairly bad Sullivan v J.Garvin feud.

-=Mike

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Jericho beating Edge and Orton back to back won't mean a great deal with no follow up. A win, no matter how big it might seem on its own, doesn't have any lasting effect if it's treated as an afterthought. Jericho will need a lot more than a couple of big wins to get back his credibility, a lot more.

This begs a question: Everybody refers to Ron Garvin as one of the worst World Champs ever.

 

Does his utter burial after dropping the belt only make it seem worse?

 

He basically vanished after dropping the belt and was a secondary concern in the fairly bad Sullivan v J.Garvin feud.

-=Mike

Don't forget his turn on Dusty for a feud that last for all of about two matches before Ronnie jumped to the WWF.

[Guest Ransome]

Angle/Shane KOTR 2001. Shane is practically out of it after Angle over-head suplexes Shane into the glass like 4 or 5 times, and then throws him through 1... and the match continues for another 5 minutes.

Agreed. The glass shattering was one of the most brutal spots I can ever recall from the WWF, and they should have put over the sheer brutality of the move by Shane being completely dead for the three count. The end of the match was, as far as I know, the first top-rope Angle Slam, and that should definitely have been saved for a future match rather than blowing their load twice in one match.

 

I'm a little surprised they haven't tried to rehash the glass shattering suplexes. Too dangerous perhaps?

[Guest LooneyTune]

Definitely too dangerous. It was more dangerous than it should've been because Angle injured his tailbone about 2 minutes before the spot (he landed bad on a suplex in the aisle), and had absolutely ZERO strength to throw Shane above his head with enough force to shatter the glass.

[Guest The Mandingo Warrior]

Warrior-Savage at Wrestlemania 7. If Warrior was going over, I think the press slam should have done it. Intead, savage kicked out, and warrior pinned him a few minutes later with a stupid flying shoulder tackle..

Savage kicking out of the splash shows how determined he was to keep himself in the match, and summoned all of his strength to kick out. Warrior winning with a "stupid shoulder tackle" had Savage just completely out of energy (a.kj.a the tank is empty), and had no fight left in him after a grueling 20 minute match.

 

It was probably the BEST ending possible, instead of the lame paint by numbers finish like you wanted it to be.

if it was the BEST ending possible, then why were the commentators not paying attention enough to even realize that Savage was being covered until the referee had already hit two and was on the way for the three? If it was the best ending, it sure wasn't exciting enough to even keep Gorilla interested..

[Guest Pariah]

Definitely too dangerous. It was more dangerous than it should've been because Angle injured his tailbone about 2 minutes before the spot (he landed bad on a suplex in the aisle), and had absolutely ZERO strength to throw Shane above his head with enough force to shatter the glass.

While everyone talks about how sick the Belly to Belly attempts and actual glass shattering suplexes were, I always thought Angle throwing Shane head first through the second one was equally as bad, Shane literally just went face first through the glass pannel IIRC.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Monsoon played up that Warrior was questioning his own abilities, who was contemplating leaving the ring and taking the count out until Savage knocked him silly... but Monsoon was not even close to being a good PBP Man to understand the kicking out from both mens finishers (and in Warriors case, 5 elbows). He was the Jim Ross of the 80's-early 90s. Spouted off the same comments every show, and really was only good when paired with Ventura/Heenan.