Can The Fallen Angel Succeed as X Division Champ?

[Guest MikeSC]

Just checked, and Jarrett and Steiner had no matches during any of the WWA PPV's.

Well, that's probably why Scott never drew much when he had his ME program with HHH.

-=Mike

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I think Jarrett met Steiner in a tag match when he was tagging with McMichaels in early 97.

[Some Guy 0]

Fans don't chant "Drop the title" at HHH, but rather the usual chants towards heels, such as "asshole." They chant phrases born of the IWC towards Jarrett to show their displeasure with him as champion.

In fairness to JJ that is only because WWE's fanbase is not soley made up of the IWC. If TNA had a similar fan base WWE (mostly marks and a relatively small amount of Smarks) then JJ would probably be getting a similar reaction to that of HHH's. Although HHH is smarter than JJ in that he has never been acknoweldged as being the a main power behind the company on TV, where as JJ has, at least through the association of his father and HHH does periodically drop the strap to someone the fans want to see win it and has consistantly good matches (I can't really speak for JJ's match quality though as I haven't seen him wrestle in probably two years since he doesn't work on Impact!).

 

The only difference I can see between the guys HHH has beaten and the guys JJ has beaten is how far down the card they are pushed. WWE has HHH beat a guy and he is then pushed back to the midcard where he'll trade losses with all the other guys who HHH has beaten so that they'll maintain a certain level of overness, but not enough to be a threat to HHH at the top. With JJ it seems like after you job to him once or twice your "brush with greatness" is over for good, HHH will periodically bring them back up so that he can beat them again or in Benoit's case last week for the "first time."

 

If anything HHH is worse because people actually watch his company and get emotionally invested into the guys he buries. No one to speak of really gave a shit when Monty Brown didn't win the title. The 400 people who ordered the PPV probably expected it or at least should have.

[Guest MikeSC]

Fans don't chant "Drop the title" at HHH, but rather the usual chants towards heels, such as "asshole." They chant phrases born of the IWC towards Jarrett to show their displeasure with him as champion.

In fairness to JJ that is only because WWE's fanbase is not soley made up of the IWC.

 

And TNA's IS? TNA's fanbase is people walking around Universal Studios. Forgive me if I don't buy them as the sharpest knives in the drawer.

 

Hell, few people are more markish than "smarks". See ECW for an example.

If TNA had a similar fan base WWE (mostly marks and a relatively small amount of Smarks) then JJ would probably be getting a similar reaction to that of HHH's.

He didn't in the WWE or WCW.

-=Mike

[Some Guy 0]

In fairness to JJ that is only because WWE's fanbase is not soley made up of the IWC.

 

And TNA's IS? TNA's fanbase is people walking around Universal Studios. Forgive me if I don't buy them as the sharpest knives in the drawer.

 

Hell, few people are more markish than "smarks". See ECW for an example.

No, I think that the crowd is mostly the same TNA smarks over and over witha few people who are at the park.

 

If TNA had a similar fan base WWE (mostly marks and a relatively small amount of Smarks) then JJ would probably be getting a similar reaction to that of HHH's.

He didn't in the WWE or WCW.

-=Mike

 

I'm not saying that JJ would be a good draw or ever has been and I don't think that HHH is or ever has been either. HHH was a good foil for Rock in 2000 and that was the only uber-successful year that he was on top. Once the show fell on him it dropped significantly. If JJ were pushed into the position that HHH is in he would be getting a similar reaction to HHH. Anyone who has been pushed that hard for that long and put over that many guys (people who actually drew money and matter in wrestling, not Ron Killings or AJ Styles) will get a certain amount of heat. If HHH were in front of the TNA audience he'd probably get even worse "go away" heat tha Jarrett because HHH is doing it to the only viable wrestling company in the country. TNA get .4 ratings on a good week, JJ isn't ruining something that people care about, WWE gets 4.0s or so, HHH is bringing down, or at the very least not helping a company with millions of fans.

[Guest MikeSC]

If HHH appeared in TNA, he'd be a God to the fans there.

-=Mike

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If HHH appeared in TNA, he'd be a God to the fans there.

-=Mike

To their live events, yes, but PPV buys would plummet, because it's almost exclusively 'smart' fans who buy TNA shows.

[Guest MikeSC]

If HHH appeared in TNA, he'd be a God to the fans there.

    -=Mike

To their live events, yes, but PPV buys would plummet, because it's almost exclusively 'smart' fans who buy TNA shows.

The benefit of being rock bottom is that you can't go much lower.

-=Mike

...I still say TNA would be doing much better if they had Styles or Daniels as their standard bearer. Provide a REAL contrast between their champ and the WWE's champs...

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I still say TNA would be doing much better if they had Styles or Daniels as their standard bearer. Provide a REAL contrast between their champ and the WWE's champs...

Without question they would, if only because right now, both TNA and WWE are dominated by heel champions who manage to overcome the odds at every turn. TNA should be headlining with something that is totally different, not a bad copy.

[Some Guy 0]

I still say TNA would be doing much better if they had Styles or Daniels as their standard bearer. Provide a REAL contrast between their champ and the WWE's champs...

Without question they would, if only because right now, both TNA and WWE are dominated by heel champions who manage to overcome the odds at every turn. TNA should be headlining with something that is totally different, not a bad copy.

This I agree with. But it won't happen. JJ is NWA champ for life or more acurately until TNA goes under.

 

To get this thread even further off topic: Why don't they run some house shows in the south? They could probably draw 800-1000 in a some places and make a little money. They have the ratings and the demographics information and could easily figure out which cities are their strongest and start running them. This is one thing that I think ECW did right, they ran weekend house shows. I think TNA would be better off if they were able to expose more people to seeing guys like AJ and Daniels live.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

But hey, who am I? I've just watched the shows enough to have an understanding of the product. As has Mike. And Slapnuts (and even he, the biggest informed TNA supporter at TSM, is on our side of the fence when it comes to Jarrett's title reigns).

 

And I haven't? I'm not going to pretend I've been watching since day one. More like since. The first Jarrett vs Killings feud. But I consider that to be long enough. And another thing, I wouldn't consider myself a TNA supporter. I think the product as a whole is too flakey and doesn't make much sense, much like WCW.

Yet you support JJ, the main man in charge, as champion, when there are other, better alternatives on the roster. Interesting.

he has THE final say in the end.

 

I see that phrase a lot in this thread. But then i also read that JJ wanted Monty to go over him and Dusty said no. But i thought JJ had the final word in everything?

Think about it. You and your friend Dutch want to make this new guy look good. Then, some fat old man named Dusty comes in and says not yet. You think twice and go "hey, you're right, he's not ready." Given JJ's track record of not putting people over when the crowd was hot for them? It's not that hard of a scenario to imagine.

AJ Styles. Abyss. DDP. Ron Killings. Monty Brown. They're all over enough, and can work well enough, to be credible World champions. They're all certainly more over than Jarrett,

 

ABYSS? Are you serious. He CAN'T talk...at all! He hasn't said shit..ever. There is no way he could be a credible champion. He can wrestle..no doubt. But the makind/Kane thing was lame then and it's lame as HELL now. The only man on that list who MIGHT be more over than Jarrett is AJ.

And Chris Benoit didn't cut a promo that was more than a couple words in WCW from 1997 until 1999. Fans bought him as champion when he made Sid tap at Souled Out '00, even though he was leaving, solely based on the quality of his ringwork. Kane was a considered a threat to Steve Austin in 1998 at King of the Ring in the First Blood match, and he only said a couple words (and they were masked with a voicebox). As said, Sting's peak of popularity amongst fans was in 1997 WCW when he never said a single word. Goldberg's peak of popularity and drawing power was in 1998 when the only words he would say were "YOU'RE NEXT." Need I continue?

So Chris Benoit, Randy Orton, The Rock, Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, and Big Show have lost all credibility and heat?

 

Orton...YES. although it's not ALL HHH's fault. But you blame everything on JJ, so I'll blindly say Trips is all to blame for how lame randy is.

Because JJ is the guy in charge at TNA. HHH may have a lot of power in WWE, but it's ultimately Vince's decision.

Jericho...No Doubt. Jericho is mid-card AT BEST. He did the clean job to Shelton Benjamin. Jericho is still over...but since his loss to Trips at WM X8 he hasn't been the same. Next PPV he didn't even wrestle. Next PPV he does the job to a newcomer Cena. Cena pretty much debuts and beats the man was world champ 2 months earlier. that's LOW

Like others have said, Jericho could win the World Heavyweight title tomorrow and fans would accept him as champion. The only reason his Undisputed title reign was shit was because it started off to make him look like a Honky Tonk champion (REQUIRING interference and cheating to win), and being booked as a second-fiddle to Stephanie's DOG didn't help matters. Did the actual matches with HHH make Jericho look like shit? No. In fact, I'd say that Jericho losing at Fully Loaded 2000 to HHH made him look even more like a main eventer, since HHH couldn't even walk back up the ramp due to the damage Jericho had inflicted upon him.

I see you didn't mention..RVD...Kane..or Booker T...I wonder why?

Because RVD has been buried by more people than just HHH. Plus, HHH's defeats of RVD always came after a shitload of interference from Evolution. Kane? The feud with Shane McMahon ruined him, not the feud with HHH (though Katie Vick didn't help). Booker? I'll give you that one.

So keeping the belt on a man nearing his 40's is TNA focusing on youth, eh?

 

You're right, but thats not what i meant. I meant they probably(again i don't know for certain) want to give the title to a younger contender, I know jarrett is old. Thats why they don't give the belt to the likes of DDP, Savage and Nash. Because it would be devestating to morale that a man past his prime can walk in and become champion, when someone like Monty or Killings who work thier asses off don't get a break. I know thats what it seems like now, but Killings had his break and he will get it again. And just wait...Monty will get his too.

Killings had his break because JERRY saw how over he was after TNA had only been open for 6 weeks. He was more over than his own son, and he booked him to win the NWA World title BEFORE his flesh and blood for a reason. And yes, it would be devastating to morale if a man past his prime waltzed in and became champion. Oh, wait...it already happened the moment JJ's second World title reign started in late '03 (notice I said SECOND reign, since I thoroughly believe his first reign as NWA World champion was terrific until April 30th). Monty will get his? When? When he turns face again?

Well...AJ Styles ring a bell? Ron Killings ring a bell? EITHER man could, credibly, win the belt off of AJ, and few would actually complain.

 

I didn't mean that AJ or the Truth wouldn't be credible, i carefully used the word position, meaning they were involved in other things for the time being. Also Killings got pinned CLEAN by primetime, how credible would he be? I suppose that too is 100% Jarrett's fault.

How credible would he be? As credible as the man who, in his last match in the BIGGEST COMPANY IN THE HISTORY OF THE BUSINESS, was beaten by a woman with a broom. As credible as a man who HAD HIS FACE SHOVED INTO A DONKEY'S REAR by a fat old man and his son. As credible as a man who gets told week-in and week-out that he isn't the one people came to see by the fans. Hell, he'd be more credible than all of them, and a much better choice, too.

Jeff Jarrett may go over in the end, but he makes his opponents look like Gold. much like triple h does now. Like I said, Name one person Jarrett has beat cleanly in this title run.

So AJ looked like gold when Jarrett beat him...when? When Russo interfered all over the place and AJ still lost clean? When AJ jobbed to a man who hadn't had a match in nearly two years and JJ? When AJ carried the first King of the Mountain match with everybody but Killings kicking and screaming along the way, only to not win it? WHEN the flying FUCK did Jarrett EVER make Styles look good? He no-sold all of his biggest moves by kicking out of them during their first singles encounter, ran him down in promo's all the time, and has always made himself look smarter than Styles. WHEN?

And name one person? Don't need to. You don't need to win clean to bury somebody. Case in point: 4/30/03 - Raven vs. Jeff Jarrett

In the worst case scenario, this match should have gone to a draw so that Jarrett retains the title on a technicality, but Raven - should he re-sign with TNA - still looks strong. That wasn't the case. I wonder who decided that? Considering Jarrett was telling Russo what to do for most of Russo's TNA run (and Russo's said this on a few occasions), I blame Jeff. Jeff took Singapore Cane shots from THE SANDMAN and JUSTIN CREDIBLE - two men who were hyped as being the masters of that particular weapon for their respective tenures in ECW, and many TNA fans were also former ECW fans mind you - and weaponshots from New Jack (whose entire career is based around weaponshots). I believe he also received a Death Valley Driver from Saturn, which was the move he used to win quite a few matches in WCW in 1998 and 1999. Then, of course, there was the HOGAN KILLER (and I call it this because even Hulk would job to the spot) in the DOUBLE SUPERKICK CON-CHAIR-TO (New Jack and Sandman sandwiched Jarrett's head with steel chairs, like E&C's old Con-chair-to move, and then Justin Credible and Perry Saturn delivered Superkicks to either chair, essentially delivering DUEL VAN DAMINATORS to Jeff Jarrett).

Then? Sabu ran in, cleared house, and hit Raven ONCE with a chair. ONCE. Jarrett kicks out of 2 Evenflow's, and pins Raven with The Stroke 1-2-3. How ANYBODY could possibly defend Jarrett following that bullshit is completely fucking beyond me.

 

And, for old time's sake:

Fuck Jeff Jarrett.

[Guest MikeSC]

You forgot that JJ ALSO got handcuffed during the massive run-ins --- and STILL won.

-=Mike

[Carnival 0]

Yet you support JJ, the main man in charge, as champion, when there are other, better alternatives on the roster. Interesting.

 

Because I know it takes more than just workrate to draw. So does jarrett. You must have a balance in your shows. Jeff Jarrett is more of the character type. Fans care more about the outcome of his match than watching the actual match. They just want to see him lose. (Obviously, we disagree on the reason for this) Whereas Daniels is more of the workrate type. Fans care more about the quality of his matches, more than the outcome. And I'm talking about the casual fan, not a smark.

 

Think about it. You and your friend Dutch want to make this new guy look good. Then, some fat old man named Dusty comes in and says not yet. You think twice and go "hey, you're right, he's not ready." Given JJ's track record of not putting people over when the crowd was hot for them? It's not that hard of a scenario to imagine.

 

How many times must i say this? It doesn't make sense to me either. If Jarrett has the final word, then how could dusty tell him no? Ok i DO assume jarrett can make the final decision, so the dusty thing makes no sense. I'm AGREEING with you. Now about JJ's "track record"...thats BS.

 

And Chris Benoit didn't cut a promo that was more than a couple words in WCW from 1997 until 1999. Fans bought him as champion when he made Sid tap at Souled Out '00, even though he was leaving, solely based on the quality of his ringwork. Kane was a considered a threat to Steve Austin in 1998 at King of the Ring in the First Blood match, and he only said a couple words (and they were masked with a voicebox). As said, Sting's peak of popularity amongst fans was in 1997 WCW when he never said a single word. Goldberg's peak of popularity and drawing power was in 1998 when the only words he would say were "YOU'RE NEXT." Need I continue?

 

Yes please continue...not naming any good examples.

 

Benoit-didn't cut a promo all the time. But talked enough. Bad example.

 

Kane-Was Champ for 1 Day because there is no way the old Kane could have ever drawn a dime as a long term champion. He might as well have never been champion. Thats why he never was again, but suddenly he started to become more over...I think thats around the time he started to talk more. I wonder why that is? Horrible Example.

 

Sting-the reason people loved this is because they already knew sting when he stopped talking. They already loved the guy, he just changed his gimmick and became more serious. Yes he didn't talk at the time....but fans already heard him cut years of promos. getting better but still Bad Example

 

Goldberg-Goldberg was a squashing machine with a catchphrase. Goldberg squashed big name talent to get over. Abyss squashes jobbers. And what's his catchphrase. *Grunts and flexes* Looks more like he's trying to take a shit.

 

Abyss will never be a main eventer unless he starts talking or completely changes his gimmick.

 

Like others have said, Jericho could win the World Heavyweight title tomorrow and fans would accept him as champion. The only reason his Undisputed title reign was shit was because it started off to make him look like a Honky Tonk champion (REQUIRING interference and cheating to win)

 

Yes they would accept him, but they still would be like "wtf Jericho?" they would only accept it because it ain't Trips.

And requiring interference to win.....sounds like all of jarretts match. If requiring interference to win made Jericho look so bad, why does it make Jarrett look so good? Answer: It's the same...It doesn't.

 

Did the actual matches with HHH make Jericho look like shit? No. In fact, I'd say that Jericho losing at Fully Loaded 2000 to HHH made him look even more like a main eventer, since HHH couldn't even walk back up the ramp due to the damage Jericho had inflicted upon him.

 

You're right that match made him look quite good. Much like when Jarrett needed to cheat to beat Garza. (only on a smaller scale)

 

Monty will get his? When? When he turns face again?

 

Again we don't exactly know how this will play out.

 

Killings had his break because JERRY saw how over he was

 

How do YOU know it wasn't Jeff's idea??? You DON'T. It goes back to Blame Jarrett, praise others mentallity.

 

Because RVD has been buried by more people than just HHH.

 

And Raven, Ron Killings, and AJ haven't???? Have you even watched TNA in past 6 months?

 

And Raven vs Jarrett finish was BS..........Jarrett should have gave them all strokes and piled them on top of each other and pinned them all at once.

 

God Bless Jeff Jarrett!

 

 

btw: Thanks to whoever changed my title...I love it!

Edited March 25, 2005 by CarnivalizComing

[Guest MikeSC]

Yet you support JJ, the main man in charge, as champion, when there are other, better alternatives on the roster. Interesting.

Because I know it takes more than just workrate to draw. So does jarrett.

But Jarrett doesn't have ANY of them. He is virtually devoid of charisma. His mic skills are WORSE --- yes, worse --- than Benoit's. The only time he got over was when he beat up women.

You must have a balance in your shows. Jeff Jarrett is more of the character type. Fans care more about the outcome of his match than watching the actual match.

Doesn't explain the "Drop the belt" chant.

They just want to see him lose. (Obviously, we disagree on the reason for this) Whereas Daniels is more of the workrate type. Fans care more about the quality of his matches, more than the outcome. And I'm talking about the casual fan, not a smark.

OK, if you think JJ appeals to casual fans, you're delusional.

Think about it. You and your friend Dutch want to make this new guy look good. Then, some fat old man named Dusty comes in and says not yet. You think twice and go "hey, you're right, he's not ready." Given JJ's track record of not putting people over when the crowd was hot for them? It's not that hard of a scenario to imagine.

How many times must i say this? It doesn't make sense to me either. If Jarrett has the final word, then how could dusty tell him no? Ok i DO assume jarrett can make the final decision, so the dusty thing makes no sense. I'm AGREEING with you. Now about JJ's "track record"...thats BS.

Explain the finish to his big match with Raven.

 

Feel free.

And Chris Benoit didn't cut a promo that was more than a couple words in WCW from 1997 until 1999. Fans bought him as champion when he made Sid tap at Souled Out '00, even though he was leaving, solely based on the quality of his ringwork. Kane was a considered a threat to Steve Austin in 1998 at King of the Ring in the First Blood match, and he only said a couple words (and they were masked with a voicebox). As said, Sting's peak of popularity amongst fans was in 1997 WCW when he never said a single word. Goldberg's peak of popularity and drawing power was in 1998 when the only words he would say were "YOU'RE NEXT." Need I continue?

Yes please continue...not naming any good examples.

 

Benoit-didn't cut a promo all the time. But talked enough. Bad example.

No, he REALLY didn't cut many promos for most of his WCW stint.

Kane-Was Champ for 1 Day because there is no way the old Kane could have ever drawn a dime as a long term champion. He might as well have never been champion. Thats why he never was again, but suddenly he started to become more over...I think thats around the time he started to talk more. I wonder why that is? Horrible Example.

Kane didn't talk until 1999.

 

He was over LONG before that point.

Goldberg-Goldberg was a squashing machine with a catchphrase. Goldberg squashed big name talent to get over. Abyss squashes jobbers. And what's his catchphrase. *Grunts and flexes* Looks more like he's trying to take a shit.

You just said a "guy who doesn't talk can't draw". Goldberg, for all of his faults, didn't talk much. And he, well, he's a significantly bigger draw than JJ has ever hoped to be.

 

And I happen to think GB is a pretty weak draw.

Like others have said, Jericho could win the World Heavyweight title tomorrow and fans would accept him as champion. The only reason his Undisputed title reign was shit was because it started off to make him look like a Honky Tonk champion (REQUIRING interference and cheating to win)

Yes they would accept him, but they still would be like "wtf Jericho?" they would only accept it because it ain't Trips.

And requiring interference to win.....sounds like all of jarretts match. If requiring interference to win made Jericho look so bad, why does it make Jarrett look so good? Answer: It's the same...It doesn't.

Jericho was CLEARLY pushed as being beneath Austin. Ditto Hunter. That's not even a debate.

Did the actual matches with HHH make Jericho look like shit? No. In fact, I'd say that Jericho losing at Fully Loaded 2000 to HHH made him look even more like a main eventer, since HHH couldn't even walk back up the ramp due to the damage Jericho had inflicted upon him.

You're right that match made him look quite good. Much like when Jarrett needed to cheat to beat Garza. (only on a smaller scale)

JJ...made...Garza...look...good?

 

Wow.

Monty will get his? When? When he turns face again?

Again we don't exactly know how this will play out.

Want to place bets on JJ keeping the belt?

Killings had his break because JERRY saw how over he was

How do YOU know it wasn't Jeff's idea??? You DON'T. It goes back to Blame Jarrett, praise others mentallity.

Then Jeff's burial of him was DOUBLY inexplicable.

 

You're not really defending Jeffy too well.

Because RVD has been buried by more people than just HHH.

And Raven, Ron Killings, and AJ haven't???? Have you even watched TNA in past 6 months?

 

And Raven vs Jarrett finish was BS..........Jarrett should have gave them all strokes and piled them on top of each other and pinned them all at once.

 

God Bless Jeff Jarrett!

It wouldn't be out of the question with the Ultimate Jarrett.

-=Mike

[Carnival 0]

But Jarrett doesn't have ANY of them. He is virtually devoid of charisma. His mic skills are WORSE --- yes, worse --- than Benoit's. The only time he got over was when he beat up women.

 

Jarrett has plenty of charisma, and his mic skills are 3 times those of Benoit's. I hope you were joking about Benoit's mic skills.

 

Doesn't explain the "Drop the belt" chant.

keep reading.....

They just want to see him lose. (Obviously, we disagree on the reason for this)

there ya go.

And the reason for that is cuz JJ is playing something called the "heel".

 

OK, if you think JJ appeals to casual fans, you're delusional.

 

That may be true. But he's a bigger name than most in TNA, excluding Nash and DDP.

 

Explain the finish to his big match with Raven.

 

Feel free.

 

Ok, obviously i was joking about jarrett beating them all at the same time. I actually do think that finish was BS. I'd love to see Raven in main events and i wish raven had won. But Raven just doesn't care anymore, so i doubt we will see that again.

 

No, he REALLY didn't cut many promos for most of his WCW stint.

 

benoit wasn't a promo machine like HHH, but he talked enough.

 

Kane didn't talk until 1999.

 

He was over LONG before that point.

 

True, never said he wasn't over before, he just became more over when he started to talk. And i said he never was a draw and never was a credible champion.

 

You just said a "guy who doesn't talk can't draw". Goldberg, for all of his faults, didn't talk much. And he, well, he's a significantly bigger draw than JJ has ever hoped to be.

 

And I happen to think GB is a pretty weak draw.

 

The key is didn't talk much. He still spoke. And yes goldberg was a bigger draw than JJ.

 

Jericho was CLEARLY pushed as being beneath Austin. Ditto Hunter. That's not even a debate.

 

Ok......

Jericho needed to cheat to beat Austin and The Rock.

Jarrett needed to cheat to beat....Everyone.

 

So how does that make Jericho look bad.....but jarrett look good? You're arguement makes no sense.

 

JJ...made...Garza...look...good?

Yes he did!

Want to place bets on JJ keeping the belt?

Yes I do!

Then Jeff's burial of him was DOUBLY inexplicable.

 

You're not really defending Jeffy too well

 

No it's NOT. Thats ridiculous. Like Jarrett is the only one who has ever beat Killings. Jarrett put him over. And i'm sure if Jarrett really was holding Killings down, killings would go somewhere else.

 

I'm defending "Jeffy" masterfully, obvisouly because your arguements here go way off topic here.

 

And I shouldn't have said anything about my title...i liked the last one better.

[Some Guy 0]

But Jarrett doesn't have ANY of them. He is virtually devoid of charisma. His mic skills are WORSE --- yes, worse --- than Benoit's. The only time he got over was when he beat up women.

 

Jarrett has plenty of charisma, and his mic skills are 3 times those of Benoit's. I hope you were joking about Benoit's mic skills.

 

Jarrett's mic skills are about the same as Benoit's on the whole. Benoit has terrible delivery and Jarrett is a terrible catchphrase machine. His promos suck. I don't hate JJ as a worker (or didn't last I saw him wrestle like 2 years ago) but I no interest in his promos, which I have heard recently.

 

Doesn't explain the "Drop the belt" chant.

keep reading.....

They just want to see him lose. (Obviously, we disagree on the reason for this)

there ya go.

And the reason for that is cuz JJ is playing something called the "heel".

 

Marks don't use the word "drop" in relation to titles and they would be the ones who would be treating JJ as an effective heel, which he isn't, at least at a ME level. TNA's fans are almost exclusively smaet marks and they don't want JJ to be champion. He is truning off his fanbase by continuing to hold that belt.

 

OK, if you think JJ appeals to casual fans, you're delusional.

 

That may be true. But he's a bigger name than most in TNA, excluding Nash and DDP.

 

Not true. Road Dogg, Konnan, X-Pac, Mike Tenay, Dusty Rhodes, and a handful of other more recent WWE regects have a bigger name than JJ to the the casual fan.

 

Explain the finish to his big match with Raven.

 

Feel free.

 

Ok, obviously i was joking about jarrett beating them all at the same time. I actually do think that finish was BS. I'd love to see Raven in main events and i wish raven had won. But Raven just doesn't care anymore, so i doubt we will see that again.

 

Is it possible that Raven, like RVD and Booker just don't care anymore because htey know that they will never be allowed to shine?

 

No, he REALLY didn't cut many promos for most of his WCW stint.

 

benoit wasn't a promo machine like HHH, but he talked enough.

 

He cut almost zero promos during his WCW run. His gimmick at the end was "Silent but Violent."

 

Kane didn't talk until 1999.

 

He was over LONG before that point.

 

True, never said he wasn't over before, he just became more over when he started to talk. And i said he never was a draw and never was a credible champion.

 

Kane was probably most over as a draw at WM 14 or so. He got his biggest face pops during the mid card thing with Tori and Waltman, while he was learning to talk.

 

You just said a "guy who doesn't talk can't draw". Goldberg, for all of his faults, didn't talk much. And he, well, he's a significantly bigger draw than JJ has ever hoped to be.

 

And I happen to think GB is a pretty weak draw.

 

The key is didn't talk much. He still spoke. And yes goldberg was a bigger draw than JJ.

 

Goldberg cut no promos for months. None at all. They built up his first promo as a huge event on Nitro for at least a week. He barely spoke outside of grunts and random yelling during matches up until that point.

 

Mike, I have to disagree with on Goldberg being a weak draw. He was a huge draw, getting big ratings and moving a ton of T-Shirts in late 98. His mega drawing power was short lived as they started booking him in a way that the audience did not want to see him. His WWE run is proof that he can get over if booked right (Summerslam 03, until the finish). The whole thing with Goldberg is presentation and WWE fucked that up. They didn't present him as a monster and he didn't draw. When WCW presented him as such he drew very well.

 

Jericho was CLEARLY pushed as being beneath Austin. Ditto Hunter. That's not even a debate.

 

Ok......

Jericho needed to cheat to beat Austin and The Rock.

Jarrett needed to cheat to beat....Everyone.

 

So how does that make Jericho look bad.....but jarrett look good? You're arguement makes no sense.

 

It makes everyone look bad. But, if JJ or another heel beats someone by cheatin and then just moves on without the face getting the big win then the face looks like a pussy.

 

And i'm sure if Jarrett really was holding Killings down, killings would go somewhere else.

 

Such as WWE? The company that never pushed him and then released him? i don't think that K Kwick has too many options outside of TNA.

 

I'm defending "Jeffy" masterfully

 

Not really.

[Guest MikeSC]

But Jarrett doesn't have ANY of them. He is virtually devoid of charisma. His mic skills are WORSE --- yes, worse --- than Benoit's. The only time he got over was when he beat up women.

Jarrett has plenty of charisma, and his mic skills are 3 times those of Benoit's. I hope you were joking about Benoit's mic skills.

If JJ had charisma, he'd be in the WWE right now. Vince really doesn't hold grudges when it comes to hiring people who MIGHT make him some money.

Doesn't explain the "Drop the belt" chant.

keep reading.....

They just want to see him lose. (Obviously, we disagree on the reason for this)

there ya go.

And the reason for that is cuz JJ is playing something called the "heel".

Hmm, how many heels get that reaction?

 

Hunter doesn't get "Drop the belt" chants.

JBL doesn't.

Brock Lesnar didn't.

Scott Steiner didn't.

Ric Flair never did.

 

But I guess Jeff is just that much better of a heel than those guys.

OK, if you think JJ appeals to casual fans, you're delusional.

That may be true. But he's a bigger name than most in TNA, excluding Nash and DDP.

3 cents is worth more than 2 cents. Doesn't make it a decent sum of money.

No, he REALLY didn't cut many promos for most of his WCW stint.

benoit wasn't a promo machine like HHH, but he talked enough.

No, he REALLY didn't.

 

Meanwhile, JJ gets promo time all of the time --- and proceeds to churn out boring, cliched promos.

Kane didn't talk until 1999.

 

He was over LONG before that point.

True, never said he wasn't over before, he just became more over when he started to talk. And i said he never was a draw and never was a credible champion.

No, he became over when he annihilated Mankind at SSeries '97. He's never been given the CHANCE to draw (which JJ cannot claim) and was only given a one-day run with the gold, so he didn't get a chance to prove himself (also, something JJ cannot claim).

You just said a "guy who doesn't talk can't draw". Goldberg, for all of his faults, didn't talk much. And he, well, he's a significantly bigger draw than JJ has ever hoped to be.

 

And I happen to think GB is a pretty weak draw.

The key is didn't talk much. He still spoke. And yes goldberg was a bigger draw than JJ.

Saying "Who's next?" isn't exactly cutting a promo.

Jericho was CLEARLY pushed as being beneath Austin. Ditto Hunter. That's not even a debate.

 

Ok......

Jericho needed to cheat to beat Austin and The Rock.

Jarrett needed to cheat to beat....Everyone.

Jericho had to cheat to beat...Maven.

 

And JJ is always pushed as the top guy. Jericho never was. Jericho was World Champ, but the WWE was STILL Austin's show or Hunter's show. Period.

JJ...made...Garza...look...good?

Yes he did!

The irony is that Garza gave JJ heat, not vice versa.

Want to place bets on JJ keeping the belt?

Yes I do!

Then you'd be a fool.

Then Jeff's burial of him was DOUBLY inexplicable.

 

You're not really defending Jeffy too well

No it's NOT. Thats ridiculous. Like Jarrett is the only one who has ever beat Killings. Jarrett put him over.

WHEN?

 

When did JJ EVER put Killings over?

 

Ron put Jeff over. No question. Jeff didn't do shit for Ron.

 

In fact, Jeff beats Ron twice --- and then Killings is stuck in a program with friggin' BG JAMES for about a month after that?

 

Yeah, GREAT booking.

 

Which, mind you, IS Jeffy's fault.

And i'm sure if Jarrett really was holding Killings down, killings would go somewhere else.

Hmm, there's the company who already fired him. And...?

-=Mike

[Carnival 0]

I'm bored at work so I'm ready to back into this weeks later.

 

If JJ had charisma, he'd be in the WWE right now. Vince really doesn't hold grudges when it comes to hiring people who MIGHT make him some money.

 

Brock held up Vince for money. Before that happened Vince wanted Lesnar to stay and he would have took him back if Lesnar's asking price wasn't so much. Now Vince said lesnar isn't a draw. I tend to agree, but he's better than 75% of the roster now. So Lesnar MIGHT make Vince some money, but Vince IS holding a grudge and not signing him back. Same with Jarrett. He blasted the man on the last Nitro on AIR. i think that shows that Vince holds grudges.

 

Hmm, how many heels get that reaction?

 

Hunter doesn't get "Drop the belt" chants.

JBL doesn't.

Brock Lesnar didn't.

Scott Steiner didn't.

Ric Flair never did.

 

But I guess Jeff is just that much better of a heel than those guys.

 

WWE fans are mostly marks. TNA is mostly IWC. And it's a lot harder to start an audible chant with a crowd of 10,000 as opposed to a crowd of 300. That's totally not a fair comparison.

 

Also when that TNA fans were chanting "drop the belt" I noticed a 7-9 year old little boy chanting right along with them. Now tell me that he hates jarrett because of backstage rumors and his "unwillingness" the job. I bet that kid is a smart mark at age 8. Yeah right.

 

No, he REALLY didn't.

 

Meanwhile, JJ gets promo time all of the time --- and proceeds to churn out boring, cliched promos.

 

Near the end of his WCW run Benoit talked quite a bit. And his mic skills are 1/4 those of jarrett's. That should be easy to see.

 

No, he became over when he annihilated Mankind at SSeries '97. He's never been given the CHANCE to draw (which JJ cannot claim) and was only given a one-day run with the gold, so he didn't get a chance to prove himself (also, something JJ cannot claim).

 

If JJ was givin the chance to draw in WWF when business was good. He would be the next Ric Flair. I think Kane would have been a worse draw than Jarrett in WCW. If Kane went to WCW when Jarrett did, he would be sitting at home right now.

 

Saying "Who's next?" isn't exactly cutting a promo.

 

But he spoke nonetheless. Abyss is being passed off as a non-human monster, this isn't 1980 anymore. He'll never get over with the masses with that gimmick. The only people who appreciate him are the IWC and that is for his workrate. The masses don't care about workrate.

 

Jericho had to cheat to beat...Maven.

 

And JJ is always pushed as the top guy. Jericho never was. Jericho was World Champ, but the WWE was STILL Austin's show or Hunter's show. Period.

 

No Jericho didn't cheat to beat maven. that was clean.

 

And if JJ is booked as the top guy...and has to cheat to win.

And CJ is booked as a 2nd tier guy....and has to cheat to win.

 

Who looks worse? Isn't it obvious?

 

The irony is that Garza gave JJ heat, not vice versa.

 

Garza in now way shape or form was ever more over than jarrett.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If JJ was givin the chance to draw in WWF when business was good. He would be the next Ric Flair.

For his two years in the WWF from 1997 to when he left in 1999, during which time the company got its best ratings ever, they gave him chance after chance to get over, with gimmick after gimmick, with each one failing miserably. The only reason he even got a reaction in the first place, and it wasn't much of one, was when he got given the woman beating gimmick, which, given the audience the WWF had at the time would have been hard pressed not to get a reaction with.

 

Not in this lifetime or the next could Jeff Jarrett be the next Ric Flair, and the fact that you seem to really think that shows just how truly blind you are.

[Carnival 0]

If JJ was givin the chance to draw in WWF when business was good. He would be the next Ric Flair.

For his two years in the WWF from 1997 to when he left in 1999, during which time the company got its best ratings ever, they gave him chance after chance to get over, with gimmick after gimmick, with each one failing miserably. The only reason he even got a reaction in the first place, and it wasn't much of one, was when he got given the woman beating gimmick, which, given the audience the WWF had at the time would have been hard pressed not to get a reaction with.

 

Not in this lifetime or the next could Jeff Jarrett be the next Ric Flair, and the fact that you seem to really think that shows just how truly blind you are.

Jeff has always been over in the WWF. he should have been elevated to main event status before he left to WCW. He was damn near the most over heel in the company at the time.

 

And the Ric Flair thing, couldn't be true now, but if he was used properly he could have at least been a poor man's ric flair, which is better than 80% of wrestlers today.

[Guest MikeSC]

Jeff has always been over in the WWF.

That is clearly false. He didn't even come close to being over until he started beating on women. Hell, his team with Owen was hardly a heat magnet. Hell, he had one of UT's least hot matches ever.

he should have been elevated to main event status before he left to WCW.

Nah. The WWE was obsessed with turning a profit.

He was damn near the most over heel in the company at the time.

If you ignore Bulldog.

HHH.

Undertaker.

Big Show.

Chris Jericho.

 

I can continue, if you'd like...

And the Ric Flair thing, couldn't be true now, but if he was used properly he could have at least been a poor man's ric flair, which is better than 80% of wrestlers today.

If he was "used properly"?

 

I can see that. God knows JJ hasn't been pushed recently.

-=Mike

[Jingus 0]

Carnival: I was present for dozens of live TNA weekly ppvs in my former hometown of Nashville. Believe me when I say that not one person in that entire building wanted Jarrett to keep the title on himself.

[Carnival 0]

That is clearly false. He didn't even come close to being over until he started beating on women. Hell, his team with Owen was hardly a heat magnet. Hell, he had one of UT's least hot matches ever.

 

Owen & Jeff's tag team was very over. As was Jeff as the IC champion. Do you think Vince would have put the IC title on someone who wasn't over at all???

 

If you ignore Bulldog.

HHH.

Undertaker.

Big Show.

Chris Jericho.

 

I can continue, if you'd like...

 

Please do. I'll give you 3 of those...HHH, UT, TBS. That's it. you can't name another. Jericho was in WWF for one month while jarrett was and was not as over as jarrett. And you must be smoking crack with that bulldog one. jesus.

 

If he was "used properly"?

 

I can see that. God knows JJ hasn't been pushed recently.

 

I meant in WWF, you took that WAY out of context.

 

Mike, I like how you chose to respond to so little this time. My last post pretty much left you with nothing to say. I'm not saying 100% right. but it appears i'm becoming more right by the post, since all your little side arguements are being shutdown.

 

Carnival: I was present for dozens of live TNA weekly ppvs in my former hometown of Nashville. Believe me when I say that not one person in that entire building wanted Jarrett to keep the title on himself.

 

dude, i know. Even when he was a face. I know the truth. i'm not that blind. I just like lobbying on behalf of jarrett. I think he deserves more respect than he gets.

[Guest netslob]

I just like lobbying on behalf of jarrett. I think he deserves more respect than he gets.

 

why, for the love of christ?

[Guest MikeSC]

That is clearly false. He didn't even come close to being over until he started beating on women. Hell, his team with Owen was hardly a heat magnet. Hell, he had one of UT's least hot matches ever.

Owen & Jeff's tag team was very over.

Methinks you have some real bizarre definition of "over". They were a flavor of the month team who were jobbed out to, you know, actually OVER teams later.

As was Jeff as the IC champion. Do you think Vince would have put the IC title on someone who wasn't over at all???

You mean like Ken Shamrock?

How about Goldust when he was well past his prime?

Billy Gunn was given a run in spite of an utter lack of heat.

 

Hell, he had the FAR more over D-L Brown job the belt to him once.

If you ignore Bulldog.

HHH.

Undertaker.

Big Show.

Chris Jericho.

 

I can continue, if you'd like...

Please do. I'll give you 3 of those...HHH, UT, TBS. That's it. you can't name another. Jericho was in WWF for one month while jarrett was and was not as over as jarrett.

BWA HA HA HA!

 

You are such a cute gimmick.

 

Jericho's debut had more heat than anything JJ has been involved with.

And you must be smoking crack with that bulldog one. jesus.

He was over enough to be placed in the World Title hunt and not stuck in IC Title limbo...

If he was "used properly"?

 

I can see that. God knows JJ hasn't been pushed recently.

I meant in WWF, you took that WAY out of context.

Quoted you directly.

 

And he was put over MORE over talent more than once for his titles. D-Lo should have NEVER jobbed to him. Nor should Edge have.

 

JJ was given push after push in spite of no appreciable heat.

Mike, I like how you chose to respond to so little this time. My last post pretty much left you with nothing to say.

Insanity has that effect on most people.

I'm not saying 100% right. but it appears i'm becoming more right by the post, since all your little side arguements are being shutdown.

Well, I only have people who actually watched the WWF at the time backing me up. You have a crush to back you up.

Carnival: I was present for dozens of live TNA weekly ppvs in my former hometown of Nashville. Believe me when I say that not one person in that entire building wanted Jarrett to keep the title on himself.

dude, i know. Even when he was a face. I know the truth. i'm not that blind. I just like lobbying on behalf of jarrett. I think he deserves more respect than he gets.

Him being paid in spite of never drawing a dime is more than enough respect.

-=Mike

[JJ Johnson 0]

^^^Owned beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend it^^^

[B. Brian Brunzell 0]

Do you think Vince would have put the IC title on someone who wasn't over at all???

Vince put the WORLD TITLE on someone who wasn't over. Randy Orton ring a bell? So, Vince putting the IC Title on someone who isn't over isn't really a stretch now, is it?

[Carnival 0]

You mean like Ken Shamrock?

How about Goldust when he was well past his prime?

Billy Gunn was given a run in spite of an utter lack of heat.

 

Shamrock = over

Goldust = over

Bill Gunn = not so much

 

I agree D'Lo should have never jobbed it back to him, at that point JJ should have been elevated past the midcard.

 

 

Jericho's debut had more heat than anything JJ has been involved with.

 

2 weeks later everyone forgot about Jericho, then a month after that he's jobbing to Chyna. yes i know jeff did too.

 

He was over enough to be placed in the World Title hunt and not stuck in IC Title limbo...

 

Everyone knows that was a joke. He couldn't even get over when he did a program with the rock.

 

Well, I only have people who actually watched the WWF at the time backing me up. You have a crush to back you up.

 

doesn't explain how I proved you little side arguements and analogies to be far fetched.

 

Vince put the WORLD TITLE on someone who wasn't over. Randy Orton ring a bell? So, Vince putting the IC Title on someone who isn't over isn't really a stretch now, is it?

 

Agreed. But Mike likes to portrait Jarrett as heatless jobber, not someone who was over, but not main event level.

 

You can be over without being main event level you know.

[Guest MikeSC]

You mean like Ken Shamrock?

How about Goldust when he was well past his prime?

Billy Gunn was given a run in spite of an utter lack of heat.

Shamrock = over

Goldust = over

Bill Gunn = not so much

BWA HA HA HA!

 

Shamrock was never over. And Goldust was over --- before he was given the IC Title in 1999. At that point, he was deadweight.

I agree D'Lo should have never jobbed it back to him, at that point JJ should have been elevated past the midcard.

In spite of the wealth of more over, more gifted performers, eh?

 

And that was before the WWF had a REALLY good roster. They had A LOT of deadweight in 1998-9 --- and he was STILL not over.

Jericho's debut had more heat than anything JJ has been involved with.

2 weeks later everyone forgot about Jericho, then a month after that he's jobbing to Chyna. yes i know jeff did too.

That was largely due to Russo being an inept buffoon. Jericho actually managed to get heat in a match with Chyna.

 

And I could be mean and mention how insanely quickly Jeff managed to lose the sympathy heat Owen's death gave him.

He was over enough to be placed in the World Title hunt and not stuck in IC Title limbo...

Everyone knows that was a jok. He couldn't even get over when he did a program with the rock.

Yet JJ couldn't get over with the UT.

Edge

D-Lo Brown

Val Venis (when Val was over)

X-Pac (when he was actually over)

...

Well, I only have people who actually watched the WWF at the time backing me up. You have a crush to back you up.

doesn't explain how I proved you little side arguements and analogies to be far fetched.

This "proof" is...?

Vince put the WORLD TITLE on someone who wasn't over. Randy Orton ring a bell? So, Vince putting the IC Title on someone who isn't over isn't really a stretch now, is it?

Agreed. But Mike likes to portrait Jarrett as heatless jobber, not someone who was over, but not main event level.

He WAS a heatless jobber.

 

He makes Randy Orton look like Hulk Hogan in the mid-1980's.

[Carnival 0]

Shamrock was never over. And Goldust was over --- before he was given the IC Title in 1999. At that point, he was deadweight.

 

You're right, our definitions of over are way different. Clearly Shamrock was very over, ask anyone. After his little Jericho fued he became less over.

 

You're right about Goldust 99 reign. I forgot about that.

 

That was largely due to Russo being an inept buffoon. Jericho actually managed to get heat in a match with Chyna.

 

Jarrett had more heel heat in his match with Chyna than Jericho did. Jericho was getting a babyface reaction when he was suppossed to be heel.

 

And I could be mean and mention how insanely quickly Jeff managed to lose the sympathy heat Owen's death gave him.

 

What does that have to do with anything? He lost the sympathy cuz he was a heel. he was babyface for one night after.

 

Yet JJ couldn't get over with the UT.

Edge

D-Lo Brown

Val Venis (when Val was over)

X-Pac (when he was actually over)

 

JJ more over than edge during that time

JJ more over than Val Venis during that time.

JJ more over than X-Pac at the time.

JJ equal to D'Lo at that time.

 

 

And When did Jarrett fued with the Undertaker???? I seriously don't remember that.

 

This "proof" is...?

 

read a few posts back.

 

He WAS a heatless jobber.

 

He makes Randy Orton look like Hulk Hogan in the mid-1980's.

 

He was a top 5 heel in the company in 1999. He should have been pushed up the card. Jericho is in that same posistion right now. Vince just thinks certain people should be mid-card for life i guess. Although they prove themselves to be main event talent. Jeff proved himself in WCW. He was also very over in WCW. He should have been included in the invasion, it would have been 10x better.

 

It's not a crush. It's a fact. Jeff Jarrett is a world class World Champ.