Top Ten NBA Players

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

To continue with the animated discussion in the NBA thread. I decided to do my own top 10, pretty much to let the you know what hit the fan...

 

1. Michael Jordan

 

Sorry Ripper, but I just can't budge Jordan from this spot. Ranks among the top in virtually any advance metric, starred on six championship teams, and won five MVPs.

 

2. Shaquille O'Neal

 

I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this. Shaq has simply made any team he has played on instant title contenders. He changed the game since his arrival, as any team chasing a title seems to NEED a big man to contain Shaq, whereas before they may not have been so inclined. Deserves more than the one MVP he has earned.

 

3. Wilt Chamberlain

 

Simply the dominant player of his era.

 

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

 

Overlooked in the discussion of great NBA players. Won six NBA titles and six MVP awards. Also starred in Airplane.

 

5. Magic Johnson

 

Premature retirement probably held him back a spot or two. Great all-around player. In regards to the previous discussion, I have to believe Magic could not have won five NBA titles without Abdul-Jabbar on his team.

 

6. David Robinson

 

A great player, and a credit to the sport. Overlooked among great players, but if you look closely at the players and statistics, I think you will see he deserves to be here.

 

7. Larry Bird

 

In the metrics, falls slightly short of Magic and Jordan. Still, a great player.

 

8. Bill Russell

 

Won 11 titles, but did so when the league had eight teams for most of the Celtics' run, and still had just 14 the year Russell retired. Russell would not have won so many titles had he played in a more competitive era. Still, he was a great player, winning five MVP awards.

 

9. Karl Malone

 

Peak value or career value? Malone did not dominate, but he was very good for a long, long time.

 

10. Julius Erving

 

A popular player who helped introduce the slam dunk, won 3 championships and 4 MVP awards between the NBA and ABA.

 

Honorable Mention: Hakeem Olajuwon

 

Another dominant center, winning two NBA championships and an MVP award.

[razazteca 0]

Oscar Robinson was Mr. Triple Double before the stat was recorded! David Robinson was great but Hakeem Olajuwon is one of a very few players to get a QUAD DOUBLE.....so the Dream deserves to be on the list.

 

Pistol Pete or the guy who is the NBA logo and one hell of a GM?

[alfdogg 0]

Robinson had a quadruple-double once, as well.

 

The lack of Oscar is questionable, but like Malone he never led a team to win the big one. Same with Dr. J...he never got over the hump until Moses came to Philly, plus (and this is probably nitpicking) his prime was in the ABA, and you did say top NBA players. I'd think I'd definitely still have Oscar on the list, though.

 

I think I would have had Olajuwon above Robinson, as well, as much as I love the Admiral.

[razazteca 0]

The only modern player that belongs on that list is Michael Jordan but he has issues that should keep him from being #1. Too many damn retirements, killed the Wizards morale as Owner/Player/GM/Coach/President of Operations and his gambling addition.

 

Shaq above Wilt are you insane? Step on Shaq's big toe causes him to take a month long vacation.

 

Larry Bird should be #1 cause he is the Great White Hope.

 

And no love for Kevin McHale?

 

[bob_barron 0]

No Oscar Roberston is my only beef with the list Al. The guy averaged a triple double for a whole year- that's got to count for something.

 

 

I can see Ripper arguing over #1.

And VX arguing over #2. This is gonna be fun

[Guest Vitamin X]

Shaq doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the top 5 here. If we were talking top 5 centers ever, certainly. But top 5 players? No way.

 

I'm having a hard time figuring it out for myself who I think is better, Magic or MJ.

 

Since I'd probably be biased either way I look at it, I'll do top ten greatest Lakers ever:

1. Magic Johnson

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Elgin Baylor (always gets overlooked)

5. Shaquille O'Neal (cuz, ya know, I'm not blind or anything..)

6. James Worthy

7. Jerry West

8. KOBE BRYANT~! (although what he does from here on out counts whether he moves up or down this list)

9. Vlade Divac (before this season, anyways)

10. Nick Van Exel (yeah I know he disappeared, but him along with Divac helped keep the Lakers competitive in the `90s)

 

Does Karl Malone count? He was technically a Laker, although I acknowledge his time there doesn't count nearly as much as what he did in Utah. Ditto Gary Payton. If they did, I'd insert Malone at the #3 spot, and Payton at the #7. And everyone else get bumped down.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Quote about MJ:

 

"killed the Wizards morale as Owner/Player/GM/Coach/President of Operations and his gambling addition"

 

What does this have to do with his being one of, if not, THE top *PLAYERS* in NBA history?

[Guest Vitamin X]

I forgot to mention A.C. Green on that list. All those games played deserves some kinda recognition, probably over Nick Van Exel.

 

I'm just happy I can actually compose a top ten list of notable and worthy players of my favorite team over 5 different decades. (I know Yankees fans, I know, but this is basketball..)

[Guest]

Shaq doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the top 5 here. If we were talking top 5 centers ever, certainly. But top 5 players? No way.

 

I'm having a hard time figuring it out for myself who I think is better, Magic or MJ.

 

Since I'd probably be biased either way I look at it, I'll do top ten greatest Lakers ever:

1. Magic Johnson

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Elgin Baylor (always gets overlooked)

5. Shaquille O'Neal (cuz, ya know, I'm not blind or anything..)

6. James Worthy

7. Jerry West

8. KOBE BRYANT~! (although what he does from here on out counts whether he moves up or down this list)

9. Vlade Divac (before this season, anyways)

10. Nick Van Exel (yeah I know he disappeared, but him along with Divac helped keep the Lakers competitive in the `90s)

 

Does Karl Malone count? He was technically a Laker, although I acknowledge his time there doesn't count nearly as much as what he did in Utah. Ditto Gary Payton. If they did, I'd insert Malone at the #3 spot, and Payton at the #7. And everyone else get bumped down.

I would say Byron Scott and Michael Cooper are much better than Vlade or Nick Van Exel, it's not even close. What about Jamaal Wilkes?

[Guest Vitamin X]

Okay, I'd take Wilkes over Van Exel. Same with Cooper. But Vlade was one of the better centers of the 90's and then had a career resurgence with Sacto. I used to like Nick a lot the way I liked Derek Fisher (and they both made sub-second game winning shots in Game 5's of the playoffs against the Spurs!), so I kinda have a little bit of fandom there.

[Guest]

Ok, I understand.

[MikeJordan23 0]

No Oscar or West pretty much makes the list null and void.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Oscar Robinson was Mr. Triple Double before the stat was recorded!

 

The lack of Oscar is questionable, but like Malone he never led a team to win the big one.

 

No Oscar Roberston is my only beef with the list Al. The guy averaged a triple double for a whole year- that's got to count for something.

 

Robertson did win a title with the Bucks in '71, although Kareem was probably the star of that team. If I extended the list, Robertson would have ranked twelveth. My main concern with Robertson is the same I have with Bill Russell. He played in the formulative years of the NBA, and I doubt he would have dominated to that extent in today's era.

 

The triple-double over a season is nice, but it comes from an era where teams raced down the court and hoisted shots. Teams in that year took on average 25 more shots a game than they do today. That is many, many more opportunities to grab points, rebounds and assists. Would Robertson repeat that today, in a different era and more competitive league? Or was that accomplishment a product of his time? More importantly, is it an indication of greatness, or a quirky statistic? The only things in which Robertson led the league in 1962 were assists.

 

Robertson's a great player. If I extended this list, he likely would have ranked twelveth. But I just can't justify ranking him among the top ten.

 

Same with Dr. J...he never got over the hump until Moses came to Philly, plus (and this is probably nitpicking) his prime was in the ABA, and you did say top NBA players. I'd think I'd definitely still have Oscar on the list, though.

 

I did not intend to exclude the ABA, and Erving's three championships in the ABA put him on the list. I could easily swap him with Olajuwon or Moses Malone however.

 

Shaq above Wilt are you insane? Step on Shaq's big toe causes him to take a month long vacation.

 

For all of Wilt's dominance, he collected two NBA titles. Shaq has three. And again, O'Neal plays in a much more advanced era. Chamberlain accumulated gaudy counting statistics because his era was condusive to doing so. Shaq dominates the game like no player has done in recent memory. He is the all-time leader in Player Efficiency Rating, and he has a few years left still.

 

Shaq doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the top 5 here. If we were talking top 5 centers ever, certainly. But top 5 players? No way.

 

In 1992, the Orlando Magic compiled a 21-61 record. Shaq joined the team as a 20 year old, and the team improved to 41-41. In 1996, the Magic finished 60-22. Shaq left, and the Magic fell to 45-37 the next season. The 1997 Lakers improved three games when Shaq arrived, but finished 22 wins worse when Shaq departed. The Miami Heat improved 17 wins when Shaq arrived.

 

That gives us five examples of Shaq leaving or joining a team. In four instances, he swung the team's win/loss record 15 wins or more.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

No Oscar or West pretty much makes the list null and void.

Oscar I've addressed. Jerry West won one NBA title and never won an MVP award. Where is the evidence that he belongs among the top ten?

[iggymcfly 0]

I'd definitely put Wilt at #1 over Jordan. No one's ever dominated the game the way Wilt did. He averaged 50 points and 25 boards for an entire season. He scored 100 points in a game. He's just done things that no one else ever even though of.

 

I agree that Shaq's a great, underrated player, and I can see him as one of the top ten of all time. Number two though? That's a little ridiculous. He's won some titles, and had some MVP-quality seasons, but he's never been truly dominant.

 

If I made a top ten of all time, it would probably go like this:

 

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Michael Jordan

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Bill Russell

5. Jerry West

6. Magic Johnson

7. Larry Bird

8. Shaquille O'Neal

9. Karl Malone

10. Oscar Robertson

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I'd definitely put Wilt at #1 over Jordan. No one's ever dominated the game the way Wilt did. He averaged 50 points and 25 boards for an entire season. He scored 100 points in a game. He's just done things that no one else ever even though of.

 

He averaged 50 points a season because he took ten more shots a game than any player does in the NBA today. You have to understand, basketball did not have a shot clock in the 1960s. Teams did not pace themselves and set up plays. They took the ball, ran up the court, and took shots. Chamberlain's FG% that year was .506. That would not have ranked in the top five last year. Not even close. What made Chamberlain's season so great, besides the era? It was a great season, but it hardly ranks on another stratisphere beyond what players produce today.

 

I agree that Shaq's a great, underrated player, and I can see him as one of the top ten of all time. Number two though? That's a little ridiculous. He's won some titles, and had some MVP-quality seasons, but he's never been truly dominant.

 

So Chamberlain dominated like no other, and Shaq was never dominant. The problem is that Chamberlain only won two NBA titles. It seems that teams found a way to beat Chamberlain. Shaq did dominate, and the Lakers seemed unbeatable for three years. Kobe contributed to that, but as we have seen this season, Kobe is not much on his own.

 

And why the Jerry West love? I see nothing at all in his performance record to merit a top ten ranking.

[MikeJordan23 0]

No Oscar or West pretty much makes the list null and void.

Oscar I've addressed. Jerry West won one NBA title and never won an MVP award. Where is the evidence that he belongs among the top ten?

First team all NBA 12 times, all defensive team 5 times, won Finals MVP, 5th highest in points, 16 in total points, 12 time All-star.

 

For the record my top 10 would be

 

1) Michael Jordan (Obviously)

 

2) Wilt Chamberlain

 

3) Kareem Abdul Jabar

 

4) Oscar Robinson

 

5) Magic Johnson

 

6) Bill Russell

 

7) Larry Bird

 

8) Karl Malone

 

9) Shaq

 

10) Jerry West

[MikeJordan23 0]

And I still don't get how David Robinson made your top ten. That doesn't make any sense. He's not even the best Spur of all-time. And how is he ranked higher than Hakeem the Dream?

[Guest Vitamin X]

Shaq doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the top 5 here. If we were talking top 5 centers ever, certainly. But top 5 players? No way.

 

In 1992, the Orlando Magic compiled a 21-61 record. Shaq joined the team as a 20 year old, and the team improved to 41-41. In 1996, the Magic finished 60-22. Shaq left, and the Magic fell to 45-37 the next season. The 1997 Lakers improved three games when Shaq arrived, but finished 22 wins worse when Shaq departed. The Miami Heat improved 17 wins when Shaq arrived.

 

That gives us five examples of Shaq leaving or joining a team. In four instances, he swung the team's win/loss record 15 wins or more.

In both instances where Shaq left, there was an incredible amount of turnover, especially in the Lakers' and Heat case. When he arrived in LA, he improved on Vlade's record by 3 wins. Kobe came in the next year, then Jackson, and then they won 3 titles. The entire team gets moved around, including Shaq, with the Heat, obviously both team's W-L records are going to change, considering the Heat kept their best player of the nucleus they had and got someone who could rebound like Odom and put up the points Butler would have.

 

It's arguable to see if, even had the Lakers-Heat trade not gone through, would they still have made the playoffs with all the injuries, turnover on the roster, AND an unexpected midseason coaching change?

[nogoodnick 0]

I don't know if he should be top 10 but John Stockton deserves honorable mention. The best pure point guard of all time in my opinion.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

First team all NBA 12 times, all defensive team 5 times, won Finals MVP, 5th highest in points, 16 in total points, 12 time All-star.

 

Like Wilt, Robertson and Russell, West accumulated points because of the high pace of games in his era. Every player on my list won at least one MVP award. West did not. I just can't see putting the fourth best player of that era on my list.

 

And I still don't get how David Robinson made your top ten. That doesn't make any sense. He's not even the best Spur of all-time. And how is he ranked higher than Hakeem the Dream?

 

Who is better? Tim Duncan? I didn't even try and rate Duncan, Garnett and Bryant among others because it seems premature. As for Robinson, he rates third all-time in Player Efficiency Rating, 5th in Player Wins, and 6th in Win Shares. I do not know how much stock to put in player wins and win shares as they are new statistics (and only available since 1978), but they are objective stats, and they rate Robinson highly.

 

Defensively, Robinson won four selections to the All-Defense team. Since Robinson joined the team, the Spurs always ranked among the best defensive teams in the NBA. When Robinson missed all but six games in the 1997 season due to injury, the Spurs' record fell to 20-62. Robinson never got alot of press, but I am confident he was really this good.

 

In both instances where Shaq left, there was an incredible amount of turnover, especially in the Lakers' and Heat case. When he arrived in LA, he improved on Vlade's record by 3 wins. Kobe came in the next year, then Jackson, and then they won 3 titles. The entire team gets moved around, including Shaq, with the Heat, obviously both team's W-L records are going to change, considering the Heat kept their best player of the nucleus they had and got someone who could rebound like Odom and put up the points Butler would have.

 

It's arguable to see if, even had the Lakers-Heat trade not gone through, would they still have made the playoffs with all the injuries, turnover on the roster, AND an unexpected midseason coaching change?

 

I think any Kobe/Shaq team is going to finish at least 8th, unless either suffers massive injuries. In any case, of course there are other changes besides Shaq, and they deserve mention. I would point out, however, that there are no examples of a Shaq team finishing below .500.

 

I don't know if he should be top 10 but John Stockton deserves honorable mention. The best pure point guard of all time in my opinion.

 

Stockton would probably reach a top-20 list.

[Guest Vitamin X]

In both instances where Shaq left, there was an incredible amount of turnover, especially in the Lakers' and Heat case. When he arrived in LA, he improved on Vlade's record by 3 wins. Kobe came in the next year, then Jackson, and then they won 3 titles. The entire team gets moved around, including Shaq, with the Heat, obviously both team's W-L records are going to change, considering the Heat kept their best player of the nucleus they had and got someone who could rebound like Odom and put up the points Butler would have.

 

It's arguable to see if, even had the Lakers-Heat trade not gone through, would they still have made the playoffs with all the injuries, turnover on the roster, AND an unexpected midseason coaching change?

 

I think any Kobe/Shaq team is going to finish at least 8th, unless either suffers massive injuries. In any case, of course there are other changes besides Shaq, and they deserve mention. I would point out, however, that there are no examples of a Shaq team finishing below .500.

This is true, but Shaq has never "gone at it alone" ala Kobe this year. He had Hardaway and.. probably someone else I can't remember in Orlando, Kobe and Jackson's schemes in L.A., and he has Wade and Jones in Miami.

 

I'd like to see what a team that concentrated completely around Shaq and Shaq only would be like.

[iggymcfly 0]

All right, maybe I overrated West a tad, as when I look at my list again, it does seem to be pretty heavy with players from the '60s. I could see dropping him down to 8 below Magic, Bird, and Shaq. However, he really was a tremendous player. When you combine the Celtics' dynasty with the unbelievable level that Wilt played at, it's obvious why MVP awards were at a premium during that era.

 

I know that Robertson is widely considered to be slightly better than West, but I think that West still deserves consideration for what a clutch playoff performer he was at the time. He averaged 29 ppg in the playoffs, and if the three point shot had existed at the time, he would likely have several rings.

 

I don't see how someone like David Robinson who was basically a good stat guy for a few years can be placed ahead of Jerry West and Oscar Robertson who were undeniably the greatest perimeter players over a 30 year period. (The way I figure, the NBA really got going in the '50s, so that's the time period that it's credible to compare over.)

 

As for Shaq, he was definitely "the guy" for the 00's decade, but he hasn't done enough to be one of the all-time greats yet like Wilt or Kareem or even Bill Russell. I wil say though, that if he wins a ring with the Heat, it would make a solid argument that he was better individually than Bird or Magic.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

In both instances where Shaq left, there was an incredible amount of turnover, especially in the Lakers' and Heat case. When he arrived in LA, he improved on Vlade's record by 3 wins. Kobe came in the next year, then Jackson, and then they won 3 titles. The entire team gets moved around, including Shaq, with the Heat, obviously both team's W-L records are going to change, considering the Heat kept their best player of the nucleus they had and got someone who could rebound like Odom and put up the points Butler would have.

 

It's arguable to see if, even had the Lakers-Heat trade not gone through, would they still have made the playoffs with all the injuries, turnover on the roster, AND an unexpected midseason coaching change?

 

I think any Kobe/Shaq team is going to finish at least 8th, unless either suffers massive injuries. In any case, of course there are other changes besides Shaq, and they deserve mention. I would point out, however, that there are no examples of a Shaq team finishing below .500.

This is true, but Shaq has never "gone at it alone" ala Kobe this year. He had Hardaway and.. probably someone else I can't remember in Orlando, Kobe and Jackson's schemes in L.A., and he has Wade and Jones in Miami.

 

I'd like to see what a team that concentrated completely around Shaq and Shaq only would be like.

Thats not really fair to Shaq... you can't name one team that has made any sort of real championship drive without a second, or even third fiddle.

[Ripper 0]

Alright. My list.

 

 

1: Magic Johnson - Like I said before. Magic(not counting that brief comeback attempt) played 11 NBA seasons, and went to the finals 8 of those. 5 of which his team won the title. 2nd all time in assist, made all his players alot better, could score if need be, was practically unstoppable on the court, could play 4 positions consistantly, a hell of a rebounder, triple double MACHINE and ball hawk. The guy just did it all. I think its a little unfair to say that if he didn't have those guys around him he couldn't win, because honestly we don't know what those guys would have done without him. All we can say is that the Lakers were a dominant team and Magic Johnson was the engine.

 

2: Kareem Abdul Jabbar - I know I know, alot of his stats are because he played like 50 years, but he still is the number one scorer, number two rebounder, number two shotblocker in the history of the nba. Won 6 titles with two teams, countless MVP's (if you can only count to five...I guess it would be countless)

 

3: Wilt Chamberlain - The guy was just simply dominant. Already mentioned was his 50 point, 25 rebound year, but what people don't know about was that he actually lead the league in assist a few times. From the CENTER position. OVER 10 a game. Would have had entire handfuls of rings if not for Bill Russell and those damn Celtic.

 

after this, its a crap shoot. You can interchange any of them for all i care and I wouldn't argue.

 

4: Michael Jordan - Greatest scorer to play the game, great team defender, could rebound, could pass...the guy could do it all. 6 championships, scoring titles out the wazoom, won a defensive player of the year(i still think it was bullshit, but he did win it so it goes on the resume). For every arguement people have for Magic, I can have for Jordon though. What would he have done if he didn't have Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman or Horace Grant. Jordan didn't win until the pieces were in place and the league got a lil more parity.

 

5: Bill Russell - gotta cut the reasoning short...have to actually work, but probably greatest defender of all time, great team player, could score out the ass if he wanted to, a shit load of championships.

 

6: Oscar Robertson - Cause he is the big O.

 

7: Hakeem Olajawan - so underrated I can't even spell his name right. All time leading shot blocker and rebounder in the league. Only took him about 12 years to get there. Impressive.

 

8. Larry Bird - He would be at 5 if I wasn't just now rembering him. Put him there and push everyone else down one. Turned the Celtics from nothing to contenders, great all around player. Underrated defender, rebounder and passer, as most dumbasses just think he could shoot threes and thats it (goddamned Jordan vs Bird video game).

 

9: Shaq - Don't be hatin.

 

10: *looks around*....*looks around again*.....Okay...i know no one will agree with me, but Moses Malone was the MUTHA FUCKIN MAN.

[Brett Favre 0]

I can't believe you're comparing Worthy and Kareem to fucking Horace Grant, Pippen (I could understand a bit) and Rodman. But Kareem is 20x great than any of those three.

 

Heck, you have him as the 2ND BEST PLAYER EVER! Jordan clearly didn't have more help than Magic. Please!

 

As far as the Shaq with no help argument; give Shaq the same team in LA that Kobe has, and I guarantee you they make the playoffs.

[Ripper 0]

I can't believe you're comparing Worthy and Kareem to fucking Horace Grant, Pippen (I could understand a bit) and Rodman. But Kareem is 20x great than any of those three.

 

Heck, you have him as the 2ND BEST PLAYER EVER! Jordan clearly didn't have more help than Magic. Please!

 

As far as the Shaq with no help argument; give Shaq the same team in LA that Kobe has, and I guarantee you they make the playoffs.

Kareem was at the end of a career after around 82. Of course he was better than Jordans supporting cast, but lets not be confused, Jordan wouldn't have had any sucess without Pippen. Hell, Magic did make a finals with Sam fucking Perkins as the starting center.

[Brett Favre 0]

That's not the point. Magic's supporting cast > Jordan's supporting cast.

[Ripper 0]

That's not the point. Magic's supporting cast > Jordan's supporting cast.

Okay..I give you that. but:

 

Magic's Competition >>>>>> Jordans Competition

[Brett Favre 0]

I guess I'll give you that.