Lawmakers Tour Gitmo

[Justice 0]

U.S. Congress Members Say Guantanamo Conditions Have Improved

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

 

GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba (AP) -- During a tour of the U.S. prison for suspected terrorists on Saturday, House Republicans and Democrats, including one who has advocated closing the facility, said the United States has made progress in improving conditions and protecting detainees' rights.

 

The U.S. lawmakers witnessed interrogations, toured cellblocks and ate the same lunch given to detainees on the first congressional visit to the prison for suspected terrorists since criticism of it intensified in the spring. A Senate delegation also was visiting this weekend.

 

''The Guantanamo we saw today is not the Guantanamo we heard about a few years ago,'' said Rep. Ellen Tauscher, D-Calif.

 

Still, lawmakers from both parties agree more still must be done to ensure an adequate legal process is in place to handle detainee cases. In the meantime, said Rep. Joe Schwarz, R-Mich., ''I think they're doing the best they can to define due process here.''

 

Republicans and Democrats alike fear the prison at the U.S. Navy base in eastern Cuba is hurting the United States' image because of claims that interrogators have abused and tortured inmates. The White House and Pentagon say conditions are humane and detainees are well-treated.

 

Lawmakers wanted to see for themselves.

 

After getting a classified briefing from base commanders, the House delegation ate lunch with troops -- the same meal of chicken with orange sauce, rice and okra that detainees were served. They then toured several of the barbed-wire camps where detainees are housed, viewing small cells, dusty recreation yards and common areas.

 

From behind one-way mirrors, lawmakers watched interrogators grilling three individual terror suspects. None of the interrogators touched detainees.

 

In one session, they questioned a man who defense officials said was a Saudi national and admitted al-Qaida member who was picked up in Afghanistan and knew nine of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers. In another, a female interrogator took an unusual approach to wear down a detainee, reading a Harry Potter book aloud for hours. He turned his back and put his hands over his ears.

 

At a communal camp for those given privileges because of good behavior, bearded detainees in white frocks, flip-flops and skull caps quietly lingered near lawmakers, although from behind fences. Later, the detainees played soccer.

 

Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas, is one of many Democrats who have called for an independent commission to investigate abuse allegations and have said the facility should close. She said she stood by that position, but acknowledged, ''What we've seen here is evidence that we've made progress.''

 

The chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., questioned the criteria for determining when a detainee can be released. ''Perhaps the standard's been too liberal,'' he said, noting that some of those released have returned to the battlefield.

 

The White House and Pentagon have defended their policies at the prison almost daily in recent weeks.

 

At a news conference last week, the president went so far as to invite journalists to visit the prison and see that the allegations were false. The Pentagon says about 400 news organizations have toured the prison since it opened.

 

A small press contingent joined House lawmakers on this weekend's trip. However, military escorts controlled how much journalists were able to see and hear.

 

On a tour of one camp occupied by detainees considered ''high value'' for providing intelligence, detainees in cells were clearly upset at the sound of visitors, shouting foreign words and pounding on closed doors while journalists entered an interrogation room -- empty except for a set of handcuffs, a folding chair, a small table and two padded office chairs.

 

Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of the joint task force at Guantanamo Bay, said he's made transparency a priority. ''It's probably my best, our best opportunity to set the record straight,'' he said.

 

Last week, human rights investigators for the United Nations urged the U.S. to allow them inside to inspect the facility. They cited ''persistent and credible'' reports of ''serious allegations of torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of detainees'' as well as arbitrary detentions and violations of rights.

 

In response, Vice President Dick Cheney told CNN on Thursday that the detainees are well treated, well fed and ''living in the tropics.''

 

The prison on the base in eastern Cuba opened in January 2002 to house foreigners believed to be linked to al-Qaida or the ousted Taliban in Afghanistan. U.S. officials hoped to gather intelligence from the detainees after the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001.

 

Bush declared the detainees ''enemy combatants,'' affording them fewer rights than prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. Some detainees have been held for three years without being charged with any crimes.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Justice

[cbacon 0]

U.S. Congress says conditions have improved! Well, if the U.S. government says the U.S. government is doing a good job who am I to argue?!?

 

In response, Vice President Dick Cheney told CNN on Thursday that the detainees are well treated, well fed and ''living in the tropics.''

 

Oh man, sounds like paradise to me.

 

Interestingly enough, besides the ICRC (which don't publish their findings), the UN or various human rights groups have yet to investigate Gitmo:

 

US 'stalling UN Guantanamo visit' 

 

The UN wants to investigate allegations of torture

Investigators from the United Nations have accused the US of stalling over their repeated requests to visit detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

The UN says it has evidence that torture has taken at the prison amid reports that 520 inmates have had mental breakdowns.

 

The UN said for over a year there had been no response to its requests to check on the condition of detainees.

 

The Department of Defense told BBC News the UN request is being considered.

 

"As for the request to visit with detainees, the ICRC [international Committee of the Red Cross] already performs this important role," a statement said.

 

'Serious allegations'

 

Manfred Nowak, the UN's special expert on torture, has been given access to many countries, among them, some with very poor human rights records. He said he had expected more openness from the US

 

"We are very disappointed that a country that always was very... positive about high human rights standards... and which is also reminding other states that they should actually co-operate fully with the special mechanisms of the UN commission on human rights itself is not living up to these standards," he said.

 

They have been asking to visit Guantanamo Bay as part of an investigation into allegations of human rights abuse at the US-run prison.

 

The accusations include "serious allegations of torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment", they said.

 

"The purpose of the visit would be to examine objectively the allegations first-hand and ascertain whether international human rights standards... are being upheld with respect to those detained persons," the UN statement said.

 

The body says it will begin an investigation into alleged abuses at Guantanamo Bay with or without US co-operation.

 

After three and half years in detention, only four inmates held that the base have been charged.

 

The International Red Cross does not publish the findings from their visits.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4123200.stm

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Justice. I understand this might sound like flamebaiting. But in the last Gitmo thread you accused me of being (paraphrasing) "all worked up by the lies and distortions of the media". That it was the medias fault for my being "misinformed". Yet you have posted a article from the AP. The same media who lied to me before? The same media who squashes conservative point of views? But you post this article? Why? Only because its is generally postive towards your position on Gitmo?

 

So how, using your point of view previously, am I supposed to take any of this seriously?

[Justice 0]

No, it's not a flamebait. It's a perfectly legitmate question, and I'll address it. But first off, that's a pretty rough paraphrase, and it'd be two completely different situations as well. Let me explain:

 

The situation I was talking about is something that was simply a rumor, just like many others. None of them have confirmation, many of them from sources that one would say is very 'reputable' or 'trustworthy'.

 

The second is a confirmed visit with actual confirmed quotes. There isn't a lie here because, well, you have more than one trustworthy witness saying the same thing.

 

Honestly, Cheesala, I would like to think that you have even a slight idea of situational awareness. You can't just try and apply universal solutions or labels to everything, which is why this argument (Among a few others that certain people on the board have use) fails.

[Art Sandusky 0]

According to two of the representatives who appeared on Hardball, the place is a pretty new facility (only two years old I believe they said) and it's a thoroughly modern prison. Reportedly, the prisoners are the real rabblerousers and (verbal) abusers.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

It's not like an inspection means anything anyway. Whenever a place is going to be "inspected" they clean the fuck out of it, and conceal anything damaging so they don't get shut down. That goes for prisons, warehouses, daycare centers, going to the dentist, and government prison camps.

[Jingus 0]

U.S. Congress says conditions have improved! Well, if the U.S. government says the U.S. government is doing a good job who am I to argue?!?

 

(sigh)

 

If you'd read the first report, you'd see that the members of the inspection team included house Democrats who used to be highly critical of Gitmo and changed their minds after seeing firsthand what the place was actually like.

 

In response, Vice President Dick Cheney told CNN on Thursday that the detainees are well treated, well fed and ''living in the tropics.''

 

Oh man, sounds like paradise to me.

 

It's not supposed to be paradise. It's supposed to be a prison for enemy soldiers and terrorists who tried to kill us.

 

The UN says it has evidence that torture has taken at the prison amid reports that 520 inmates have had mental breakdowns.

 

Are there even 520 inmates in the whole prison? That number sounds awfully high. Also, if the UN really does have evidence of torture, why don't they publish it instead of just vaguely alluding to it?

 

I don't know why the US is apparently stonewalling the UN inspectors on this matter. I agree that it looks shady to do that without providing a damn good reason. But so far all the evidence given by credible observers supplies a picture of Gitmo as being a perfectly acceptable prison of war. (Except for that whole "Trials? Who needs trials?" approach [aside from the military tribunals which decided who got sent there in the first place], that really does need to change.)

[Art Sandusky 0]

It's not like an inspection means anything anyway. Whenever a place is going to be "inspected" they clean the fuck out of it, and conceal anything damaging so they don't get shut down. That goes for prisons, warehouses, daycare centers, going to the dentist,  and government prison camps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, this is the part I forgot to say.

[Justice 0]

A quote from the man himself:

 

MANFRED NOWAK: We don't have a definite no, we have not been told you are not allowed to visit Guantanamo Bay, but we have also have not received a definite yes.

 

No one has said they aren't allowed to visit anything yet. If you, well, actually read up on the subject, you'd figure out that the US hasn't actually said no to any of his demands except for one, I believe, and that was private discussions with prisoners.

 

Oddly enough, though, they've let the International Red Cross in a few times to inspect their facilities. THEY MUST BE HIDING SOMETHING~!

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I don't care whether it's Auschwitz or Club Med, just go ahead and PUT THEM ON TRIAL ALREADY.

 

I thought this whole war was about "seeking justice," so get on with it.

[cbacon 0]

U.S. Congress says conditions have improved! Well, if the U.S. government says the U.S. government is doing a good job who am I to argue?!?

 

(sigh)

 

If you'd read the first report, you'd see that the members of the inspection team included house Democrats who used to be highly critical of Gitmo and changed their minds after seeing firsthand what the place was actually like.

 

 

The differences between the Democrats and the Republicans are so minor that most outside the US don't even consider them different parties. If the UN or Amnesty are allowed to survey the facilities and report the same thing, then there will be nothing to worry about.

 

In response, Vice President Dick Cheney told CNN on Thursday that the detainees are well treated, well fed and ''living in the tropics.''

 

Oh man, sounds like paradise to me.

 

 

It's not supposed to be paradise. It's supposed to be a prison for enemy soldiers and terrorists who tried to kill us.

 

Sarcasm.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Well considering most politiks actions on immigration most americans can't see the difference between the partys either. So very sad.

[cbacon 0]

Also, here's an excerpt from the article Justice failed to bold:

 

""Bush declared the detainees ''enemy combatants,'' affording them fewer rights than prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. Some detainees have been held for three years without being charged with any crimes."

[Jingus 0]

But do you think they have innocent men down there? Do you think they just randomly grabbed people off the street, threw 'em in the back of a truck, and said "Ciao!"? Most of these guys are there because they were captured on the battlefield or caught red-handed in some sort of terrorist action. Most of the people imprisoned at Gitmo are there because they quite literally want to kill you, C-Bacon. And me. And everyone else who isn't a Muslim.

 

I do think it's fucked up that they're not allowed legal counsel or contact with the outside world. Maybe there's a good reason for that, I dunno. I don't think that the US government would be keeping them there at such a high cost (Gitmo is expensive as hell) if there wasn't some reason to believe that those guys were trying to kill all of us.

[Prime Time Andrew Doyle 0]

But do you think they have innocent men down there?  Do you think they just randomly grabbed people off the street, threw 'em in the back of a truck, and said "Ciao!"?  Most of these guys are there because they were captured on the battlefield or caught red-handed in some sort of terrorist action.  Most of the people imprisoned at Gitmo are there because they quite literally want to kill you, C-Bacon.  And me.  And everyone else who isn't a Muslim. 

 

I do think it's fucked up that they're not allowed legal counsel or contact with the outside world.  Maybe there's a good reason for that, I dunno.  I don't think that the US government would be keeping them there at such a high cost (Gitmo is expensive as hell) if there wasn't some reason to believe that those guys were trying to kill all of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is a mighty good point that is often overlooked.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

But do you think they have innocent men down there?  Do you think they just randomly grabbed people off the street, threw 'em in the back of a truck, and said "Ciao!"?  Most of these guys are there because they were captured on the battlefield or caught red-handed in some sort of terrorist action.  Most of the people imprisoned at Gitmo are there because they quite literally want to kill you, C-Bacon.  And me.  And everyone else who isn't a Muslim. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then for pete's sake let's start putting them on trial already.

[Justice 0]

^^^ Exactly. Trials, like military tribunals would legitimize the holdings greatly. Plus, why keep someone there you don't honestly believe to be a risk? It doesn't make sense why someone would just choose to hold someone there for no particular reason.

 

Of course, if they lose their trial, I doubt many people against Gitmo will be that pleased.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

^^^ Exactly. Trials, like military tribunals would legitimize the holdings greatly. Plus, why keep someone there you don't honestly believe to be a risk? It doesn't make sense why someone would just choose to hold someone there for no particular reason.

 

Of course, if they lose their trial, I doubt many people against Gitmo will be that pleased.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Actually, I will be very pleased if some sort of trial takes place for the detainees. I have my doubts about it happening. Maybe we an hope for at least some for the ones charged with "lesser crimes" for lack of a better wording. I would doubt anyone directly in with Osama will get a trial or even a chnace.

[Jingus 0]

Um, all of the detainees HAVE had military tribunals. That's how they decided who got sent to Gitmo in the first place; they decided whether or not the person in question constituted a viable risk if allowed to go free. They just haven't had civil trials which decided the question of their guilt and ultimate punishment.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

See, the problem is that they're holding people in limbo, possibly intentionally (and I'm being generous and moderate when I say "possibly") in order to just keep them hanging around.

 

If they were handing down sentences, I wouldn't have a problem. But it seems in my eyes that they won't progress to that point because they're building some kind of a human zoo.