Booker T

[Guest Brian]

That match was going to be shitted on from the start. I was there live.

[Si82 0]

That match was going to be shitted on from the start. I was there live.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It did seem that people didn't want to care about it.

 

As for Booker, I feel the same way as others in this thread. That he has been somewhat treated badly by WWE and his conforming to the WWE style of wrestling.

 

Booker was good in WCW it's just a shame he hasn't been treated as well be WWE. So I do not feel that Booker T is overated at all. In fact I would say he is highly underated by having to work WWE style.

[iggymcfly 0]

I can see if people are complaining about someone like RVD having to "work WWE style" seeing as he did so many innovative things in ECW. But honestly, where do people get the idea that 2000 WCW style was better than what was going on in the WWF?

 

Granted, I stopped watching on any kind of regular basis in 1998, but whenever I'd turn on a WCW match, all I'd ever see was resthold, stall, stall, stall, punch, stall, stall, wrestling move, stall, stall, blown spot, stall, stall, resthold. I mean, honestly, WCW put on some terrible matches, and when JR would talk about the "near half-speed used in WCW" in the Ross Report, he was telling the truth.

 

This myth that WCW was better than the WWF in terms of in-ring quality is something that I will never understand.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The whole Invasion was just really, really, badly booked. We have to remember that. I think the fault as far as the horrible match between Bagwell and Booker T rests with Bagwell though...I mean, if I recall, Bagwell was just blowing stuff left and right in that match. I think Booker was at least _trying_ to pull off a good match. I don't think Bagwell understood the concept of working a good match.

[Guest Brian]

Let's see where to start. Well, WCW just always had the superior roster, up until Jericho and later the Radicalz. Benoit, Jericho, Ultimo Dragon, Rey Mysterio, Dean Malenko, and Juventud were all part of their roster, and all were world class workers at one point. And they were all often going against each other. Not to mention they had a supporting cast of guys who were willing to go like Booker T (best of seven with Benoit), DDP (his matches with Goldberg, Guerrero, and Benoit were all good), and assorted cruiserweights (though the division bottomed out starting in 1997) Maybe you could make an argument that overall, the main events dragged down, but the WWF hardly had anything at the time to match up with these guys (not to say that Bret and Austin were slouches, or didn't put up some simply awesome matches). And plus these guys were going 150% on house shows, which if you can find, there were some amazing showings (Dragon/Psicosis from LA, por ejemplo). Not to mention they brough in a guy like Nagata to have a super match with Ultimo Dragon.

 

And that doesn't even start with the early 90s, when the WWF was still cartoonish and Pillman, Steamboat, Flair, Austin, Cactus Jack, Rude, Windham, and Vader were working while WCW was bringing in guys like Liger, Benoit (93), and Scorpio and testing the waters for an early light-heavy divisiona few times. And I didn't even mention that they still had a very, very good tag division (Steiners, Midnight Express, Southern Boys, Rock and Roll Express).

 

Yeah, WWF put up some great matches, but WCW just has a greater body of work.

 

And I think, Iggy, that you missed the boat on the point. The WWE style hinder some people by forcing them to work in a certain mindset, establishing and focusing in on a few select moves and really holding back what they can bust out. Plus, there's the emphasis on out of the ring brawling (which has faded over the years but so has Booker's youth) and the emphasis on punch-kick and their style of transitions. For some workers, it is an improvement, like RVD, who's sloppiness is reeled in. But it hurts Booker.

[cabbageboy 0]

If anything, RVD was initially helped by not stalling and playing to the crowd ad nauseum the way he did in ECW.

 

Iggy, let me explain the difference. WCW used to have better actual wrestling up until about 1999 (aside from the fossil main events). I was just watching Rey/Eddie from Havoc 97 earlier today and was astounded at the wide array of moves. But the problem overall with WCW was that it was hard to give a shit about any of it, always was. Technically sound, but duller than shit. For instance, some of the early 90s stuff I've seen lately like Pillman vs. Zenk from WrestleWar 92. Technically sound....but it was boring as shit.

 

WCW at its peak offered a wide variety of styles that the WWF simply didn't have. Frenetic lucha libre, Japanese cruiser stuff, violent hardcore brawling, technical wrestling, etc. By 2000 (the time you mentioned) no one really gave a shit anymore so guys were half assing it on TV...it also didn't help many of the better guys they had left for the WWF by that point.

 

Anyway I like Booker fairly well but in some ways he is overrated. He's not all that crisp in the ring, some spots he simply cannot do well (the scissors sunset flip in the corner for instance....watch Booker clumsily do it then watch Jerry Lynn do it). Booker is mostly remembered for his TV title run in 1997-98 and the Best of 7 (actually 8) against Benoit. None of those matches was really all that memorable I didn't think. Think about it for a minute...how sad is it that the man's greatest work was a series of matches to get a shot at FIT FINLAY???

[Guest Rrrsh]

I refuse to watch Booker T now as he is just toooooo slow now. He moves far too slow for me to get into the match.

 

I relativly enjoyed him, despite his crappy moveset, in WCW. Now, I just cant watch him.

[Cuban Linx 0]

Booker would be far better off in a tag team at the present time. Let him get the hot tag and clean house which Booker's offence is suited for, and have a parter do the majority of the work playing underdog or whatever. Booker's still pretty over, so in a team he should get his partner over by association as well. That's preferable to more crummy singles matches with Christian or Orlando Jordan or whoever.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Watching Booker in his matches against Rock during the Invasion is pretty nuts. He was badass back then, and could have totally been made into a co-top threat with Austin (or ignored that altogether), but nooooooooo.

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

Would be cool for Orlando Jordan to turn on JBL and start a tag team with Booker T. Jordan is a decent worker and he can learn even more from Booker T. Jordan does most of the work until he hot tags Booker T who cleans house etc...and wins the match. He's a mentor to Jordan and he has a last decent run

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

WCW atually did have some entertaining matches before they closed, it's just that nobody was around to see them. Most of the good matches came from the cruiserweights though and once in a while, Lance Storm put on some good ones too. It was just the writing and the lack of the stars who were around to build the populartiy WCW had that made people apathetic.

 

 

Booker T should have gone over in his feud with the Rock when he ame to the WWF. They really blew that one because he really showed charisma and interacted great with the Rock. I think that's where his downfall negan.

[cabbageboy 0]

Yeah there were some good cruiser matches in late era WCW. I remember Chavo and Shane Helms having some good ones. Rey/Kidman vs. Elix Skipper/Kid Romeo was also a good match. Thing is, none of it meant anything.

 

As far as the Invasion goes, I actually think it is somewhat underrated. The impossible nature of it killed the angle from the get go. You had WCW, a promotion that just went under and had nobody, going against the WWF juggernaut. People think of an Invasion angle circa 1998 when both promotions were fairly equal. A WWF/WCW feud at that time wouldn't ever work, just imagine trying to get Goldberg to lay down for Austin or vice versa (the dreaded time limit draw?). It would have been just as big of a mess.

 

They probably should have brought in Bischoff for the Invasion instead of having Shane run WCW. But in the end there was no good way to do it. Everyone knew WCW sucked by that point, that the WWF had bought the company, and that they were really no serious threat.

 

Take a look at the PPVs and matches during the Invasion (aside from the Invasion PPV itself which had RVD/Jeff and little else). The shows were actually pretty good, certainly better than the horrible crap being churned out the next year.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Sadly, his best WWE work was his tags with Goldust.

[Angle-plex 0]

Booker, from his tag days, overrated best of seven with Benoit, and WCW Championship run to current day WWE has never impressed me. The guy is the definition of average, and if WCW had ANY viable faces he shouldn't have been champion. The tag days with Goldust were "funny" but mostly because of Goldust.

 

The only WWE Booker T match I would ever consider "good" would be against Austin on Smackdown in January 2002. Definetly Booker's best WWE match, and one of the only two overall Booker T matches that I'd rate highly.

[zyn081 0]

Would be cool for Orlando Jordan to turn on JBL and start a tag team with Booker T. Jordan is a decent worker and he can learn even more from Booker T. Jordan does most of the work until he hot tags Booker T who cleans house etc...and wins the match. He's a mentor to Jordan and he has a last decent run

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But Orlando doesnt work as good as you think IMHO, at least none of his work on SD has impressed me.

[The C Man 0]

Booker and Angle had some good matches for the WCW title during the inVasion angle.

[Guest Hass of Pain]

Booker peaked for around a year in WCW and has been overrated ever since in my opinion. He doesn't nearly have the spring in his step that he used to, and has been carried ever since he entered WWE. The Rock had to carry him during their initial feud, Goldust carried him for way too long and set Booker up in the ring and on the mic and so on. Booker has actually gotten to the point for me where he is actually capable of making good wrestlers look bad. His series with Christian was ugly as all hell, his series with John Cena where he should have been the veteran carrying Cena was brutal and made Cena look worse, not better, and Booker even managed to make Kurt Angle boring in the ring. He just doesn't have a well rounded moveset, and wrestlers the same match using largely kicks and chops way too much.

[The Niggardly King 0]

The problem with Booker T is that his speed has diminished greatly, and he's never really adjusted to it. His moveset would be alright if he were even able to keep up the pace that he had during the Invasion.

[Silence 0]

Booker has actually gotten to the point for me where he is actually capable of making good wrestlers look bad. His series with Christian was ugly as all hell

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesn't help that Christian has actually been boring in the ring for quite sometime now, so that automatically disqualifies him as a "good wrestler", but a resthold wrestler combined with a kick-and-chop wrestler definitely makes for one "ugly" match, like you said.

[cabbageboy 0]

Well, the Best of 7 series with Benoit has taken on a sort of lore that it really doesn't deserve. At its core it was two guys fighting 7 or actually 8 times on Thunder and shit just to get to....Fit Finlay. The irony is that Booker finally won there and beat Finlay, though I think Benoit/Finlay would have been the more logical matchup. The matches were all a blur to me really, I don't recall any one match being a classic. I think it was popular mainly because it did NOT involve the NWO and lord knows WCW viewers were looking for something decent that didn't involve the NWO at that point.

 

WCW never had a clue where to take these angles long term, even if they were good. I think Booker got hurt after that and don't recall much he did until about 2000. Jericho/Malenko is a well regarded feud but I don't recall Malenko ever beating the shit out of Jericho in a final blowoff. It was just sorta like "Malenko is a ref, costs Jericho the cruiser title, Jericho forgets it and moves on to the TV title." You're telling me Deano couldn't have beat the fuck out of Jericho for making fun of his dead dad, instead of Juventud beating Jericho in a nothing match?

 

Or the Eddie/Chavo feud....great stuff, did it go anywhere in particular? Not really. Chavo just goes nuts and rides Pepe for a while, but didn't do much. Eddie dicks around with the LWO and gets hurt in a car wreck.

 

I know some of these angles were aborted due to injury but I doubt they would have had any payoff anyway.

[Angle-plex 0]

Well, the Best of 7 series with Benoit has taken on a sort of lore that it really doesn't deserve.  At its core it was two guys fighting 7 or actually 8 times on Thunder and shit just to get to....Fit Finlay.  The irony is that Booker finally won there and beat Finlay, though I think Benoit/Finlay would have been the more logical matchup.  The matches were all a blur to me really, I don't recall any one match being a classic. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All of those matches were painfully average and totally forgettable, with the eighth match being the best as it told a story off the previous matches. Still don't know why people praise this series so highly.

 

Booker and Angle had some good matches for the WCW title during the inVasion angle.

 

Those matches weren't very good, especially the one with the ref bump and Stone Cold run in where Angle no-sold the stunner and beat Booker clean with an Ankle Lock. WAY too many run ins in those matches to consider them "good".

[goldengreek 0]

his best of 7 matches with benoit in wcw were great

[benoit4hor 0]

Booker T had a pretty descent cage match on RAW with the Big Show a few years back.

[cabbageboy 0]

I saw virtually all of the Benoit/Booker series, aside from the PPV matchup. I wasn't exactly so thrilled that I wanted the GAB 98 PPV. They were nice little TV matches, but nothing as good as even the chopped Benoit/Regal match from this past week. They were all about like what Benoit would do against most anyone that isn't inept.

[Art Sandusky 0]

The last time he showed any REAL potential with me was in July of 2002 in his match against the Big Show at Vengeance. I thought busting out the Harlem Hangover would add an extra spark to his matches (as well as a few other things that had him looking very impressive) and allow him to be a top guy on Raw. Even in March of the next year, I couldn't help but see him as the next victim of the "feed face challengers to heel champion that JUST WON'T LOSE" crap going on at the time with HHH and then with JBL last year.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Booker vs Benoit at the Great American Bash 98 is a damn fine match.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I've always liked Booker T, its too bad he always ends up getting shitted on whenever WWE actually decides to push him.

 

I guess I'm the only guy who liked the Booker / JBL match from SSeries last year.

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

I find it hilarious that people thought Booker T of all people should be put in the top spots with Austin, Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho, and Taker in 2001. That really is an insane statement. He just simply wasn't close to being in the same league as those guys on ANY LEVEL. He was a life long tag wrestler they turned singles because Kevin Sullivan thought eventually he could be a well-dressed killer black (Sullivan wanted to emphasize his skin color) top heel that would result in major heat. However, and thankfully, things never made it that far because he would have failed in the role. They were better off pushing RVD and Jericho in 2001 though RVD never became a tippety top player and the Cena program is Jericho's first major main event program since HHH.

 

Hell, just recently, they had Kurt Angle put him over big time. What a waste of jobbing out Kurt Angle that was. Is Booker T going to draw money even after beating Angle non-stop. No.

 

Certain guys are not top players. Booker T is one of those guys. He's fine in his role though if he has Sharmell with him, they should go heel and have her cut all of the promos. He could be a good upper-midcard heel and they could turn Christian babyface if that is still the direction they are going with him.

[BorneAgain 0]

Hell, just recently, they had Kurt Angle put him over big time. What a waste of jobbing out Kurt Angle that was. Is Booker T going to draw money even after beating Angle non-stop. No.

 

Certain guys are not top players. Booker T is one of those guys. He's fine in his role though if he has Sharmell with him, they should go heel and have her cut all of the promos. He could be a good upper-midcard heel and they could turn Christian babyface if that is still the direction they are going with him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Was Kurt Angle hurt by losing to Booker T? No.

 

And in regards to 2001, Booker should have been put on the same level as the WWF guys as he was one of the few people from WCW in the invasion who WWF fans were familar with, and thus should have been made a threat.

 

And I can't see Booker turning heel. He's retiring in two years, plus he turned face less than a year ago. Turning him now would be a bit pointless. Besides which, he's always been best as a face anyway.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

IMO, Booker T has not been "great" since late 97-early 98.

 

Once he came back from major knee surgery, he was slower and never the same.

 

Once WCW was purchased, he was always "decent" to "horrible" (depending on who he was working) in WWE.