Anybody else growing weary...

[Silence 0]

With the news about Stephanie most likely wanting WWE to move away from its "roots", the chance of seeing good matches and MOTYC's may decrease before the end of this year. Also, there could be an increased amount of horrible angles, characters, etc. due to Steph's current direction, and if that becomes the norm, I may not be watching too much of Raw and Smackdown like I still am. Hell, on Velocity, I refused to watch any Orlando Jordan US title matches against Jindrak and Holly earlier this year because I knew those matches would have sucked because neither of those 3 are/were interesting in the ring or have any redeeming qualities about them.

 

I could watch to see CM Punk, Gibson/Noble, Spanky, Benoit, Eddie, Benjamin, London, etc. unless they're being really misused on the shows, but aside from that, Stephanie moving WWE away from its "roots" still has me thinking that the shit angles and characters will continue, while good matches become even more scarce because of that and the WWE style.

 

Seriously, the rice krispies/M & M's (no pun intended) tumor on Jillian Hall's face being with MNM, Animal & Heidenreich as WWE Tag Team Champions, Benjamin jobbing out to Chris Masters, JBL still main-eventing, OJ still being the US Champion, John Cena still being his annoying self as a face? Ugh.

[jester 0]

I missed the Raw the night Hogan came back, and I haven't watched it since. I am tired of senior citizens I lost interest in back in 1984 being given so much effort.

 

I was into Batista, but I like how the winner of the Batista/HHH feud got banished to Smackdown.

 

I can't believe they went through with the mole character. It ceased being funny about 0.0003 seconds into the Goldmember trailers (never mind when the movie actually got released), so the last thing I want to see is it resurface on wrestling.

 

It used to be I could ignore the crap and focus on the bright spots. Those are getting harder to spot. And we have HHH's glorious return to look forward too, which as we all know needs to be at least a three part special.

[Guest NateRizzle]

People who started watching wrestling in 1998 or so aren't real wrestling fans in my view.  Those are the bandwagon types who just enjoyed the shock sports entertainment stuff, like seeing the McMahons on TV, etc. 

 

Wanna be a real wrestling fan?  Try watching Mabel get a main event push sometime and come back for more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's a tad ridiculous to make that stereotype, don't ya think? I started watching the WWF in 1998, and yeah at the time I thought the off the wall storylines and shock TV was great. After watching for about six months I wanted more, so I started buying some old tapes from the NWA and WWF. Eventually, I got to the point where I enjoyed watching The Midnight Express, Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, Vader and Bret Hart wrestle a good match rather than watching a two hour program featuring more promos than wrestling matches.

 

Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero impressed me, so I bought a couple of Super J Cups which opened the gate for me into puro. I got into All Japan, and enjoyed guys like Jumbo, Hansen, Kawada and Misawa.

 

So, yeah... not all of us are marks for shock TV.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

The markout city of ONS was, for me, a depressing reminder of how stale and uninteresting the modern WWE has become. I've barely made it through a complete Raw or Smackdown since then, and WWE's lack of direction has been distressingly obvious lately. Just a combination of lacklustre world title programs, ridiculous new gimmicks, the misuse of so much talent and Hogan on top again is just too frustrating right now. Nonetheless, I can't see myself quitting watching WWE entirely, particularly given that I made it through the dark days of 2002.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't see how anyone can say 2002 was actually worse than 2003, 2004 or 2005, at least it had the SmackDown Six going on...

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I became a fan of wrestling because of the in-ring aspect. I loved Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Chris Benoit, Dynamite Kid and a lot others who could actually wrestle. I could do without the "entertainment" but every match needs a reason for it to exist, so the ideal way for me to enjoy the product are simplified storylines leading to great matches. WCW fans agrees, apparently according to Matt Williams and his survey that Vince Russo disagreed with and threw out the survey so he could continue his crap.

[Si82 0]

I became a fan of wrestling because of the in-ring aspect. I loved Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Chris Benoit, Dynamite Kid and a lot others who could actually wrestle. I could do without the "entertainment" but every match needs a reason for it to exist, so the ideal way for me to enjoy the product are simplified storylines leading to great matches. WCW fans agrees, apparently according to Matt Williams and his survey that Vince Russo disagreed with and threw out the survey so he could continue his crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's Russo for you and yet another reason why WCW went down the tubes.

 

Personally, WWE has been a chore for me to sit through for the past year. After Backlash last year I just haven't really found anything that's really gripped and made me thought I've gotta watch to see what happens next. That's not to say it's been all doom and gloom. They've been bright spots in between like Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle, Carlito, Shelton, ECW but nothing to carry the whole show.

 

I'd love to see WWE go with a more in-ring orientated product like Porter said. Less of the "entertainment" aspect of the show by dumping crap like the diva search, battles of bands, and endless, pointless backstage vingettes. In fact the fact that cameras seem to be everywhere really need to be done away with. Sure, have a camera guy catch a moment every now and then but don't have them, seemingly invisibly, in locker rooms. Hell, if I had my way it be more like 80's NWA, which I'm loving as I thanks to DVD as I didn't get to see the stuff back then.

 

And what's this about Steph talking WWE away from it's roots? What does this mean exactly?

[Angle-plex 0]

I don't see how anyone can say 2002 was actually worse than 2003, 2004 or 2005, at least it had the SmackDown Six going on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

RAW was the worst wrestling show I've ever seen, and was so bad that Smackdown couldn't do anything to make wrestling as a whole worthwhile in 2002. Especially post-WrestleMania X8 with the horrible Bradshaw/Bubba Ray Dudley pushes, Triple H/Undertaker feud from hell, and Katie Vick (although the episode with the Triple H corpse fucking, Kane's threat of rape, and the hhhonk is legendary).

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

And what's this about Steph talking WWE away from it's roots? What does this mean exactly?

 

Apparently she loved last week's Raw. She wants more shows like it.

[Si82 0]

 

And what's this about Steph talking WWE away from it's roots? What does this mean exactly?

 

Apparently she loved last week's Raw. She wants more shows like it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christ, the girl really does have shit for brains. Looks like I'll be avoiding Raw for a while.

[The Mandarin 0]

The day Raw too gets canned heat (the repetitive kind that is very, VERY, annoying on SmackDown, Velocity and Heat) is the day I stop watching WWE television.

 

It's the same noises, over and over. "Booo...*some kind of bird caw, pause, bird caw again*" for heels and "Ya-ayyyyyy!" for faces. It drives me insane.

[Guest Jack Potts]

I've sat through too many awful angles since 1997 to be labeled a "bandwagon" fan. However, in the past, there have been enough moments of brilliance to make one remember why they became a fan in the first place. Now, every storyline is so tepid and/or insulting that even their brightest, most capable stars, like Shelton Benjamin, Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero seem unmotivated and listless. I loved Shawn Michaels' promo on Hogan last week, but that sort of fire and storytelling is missing from the other 238 minutes of Raw and Smackdown!

 

There was a moment of passion, excitement, and danger when Matt Hardy showed up on Raw, but they subsequently botched his reemergence with the continuing, unexplained run-ins. Sure, WE know why he would be back, but don't ruin our suspension of disbelief by not explaining it in a believable storyline context.

[humongous2002 0]

Thank God for Tivo, all I do is just watch the segments with Eddie, Rey, Jericho, London and RVD (when he returns), everything else I just Fast Forward. Back in the days I used to watch 5 to 6 hours of wrestling per week and now it has gone down to 30/45 minutes of sports entertainment.

[cabbageboy 0]

When I referred to the "Bandwagon 1998" type fans I refer mostly to people who watched in 1998/99 when wrestling was the cool thing but were really gone by 2002 or so. Of course not everyone who started watching was a bandwagon fan...those who are truly interested in wrestling will seek out all sorts of old tapes (like NateRizzle).

 

It's funny but I remember when Raw came to Louisville in 1999 it was hell trying to get tix for it. There had to be 10,000 people waiting, lined up all around the block hours before the box office opened. I thought "Gee, I wish the WWF would start sucking again so these bandwagon fans would go away and I could get tickets." I meant that in jest of course, but by 2001 I went to a Smackdown that had about half the arena filled. I think the Austin heel turn at WM really killed their live attendance.

 

Anyway, as far as the "moving away from its roots" stuff goes...I dunno. The WWF's roots are really many things. If you mean the Sammartino era stuff, they moved away from that years and years ago. Frankly, it's time to declare the whole "Sports Entertainment" bullshit dead and buried. I have always hated that term (sports entertainment can be many things besides pro wrestling). The Sports Entertainment bandwagon fans are GONE now, what is left are the die hard wrestling fans. People who want serious wrestling action, not bullshit with Divas or lousy Russo lite angles.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Wanna be a real wrestling fan? Try watching Mabel get a main event push sometime and come back for more.

 

At least he was a wrestler. He might have been the worst wrestler in history to main event a WWE PPV, but it was still better than crap like the Diva Search which serve no purpose whatsoever. On Smackdown this past week we had an opening match and a Taker/JBL main event, and absolutely nothing in between. That is the problem with the show these days, and it was shockingly reminiscent of WCW Thunder from 1999 onward. There are so many dead spots in their programs now that weren't even there two months ago, let alone in 2000. The only way they are ever going to turn this around is by focusing on the in-ring product again. At this point I'm not ever sure whether I care who they push, as long as we get actual wrestling. It is as bad as RAW 2002 now.

[Da Maintenance Man 0]

People who started watching wrestling in 1998 or so aren't real wrestling fans in my view.  Those are the bandwagon types who just enjoyed the shock sports entertainment stuff, like seeing the McMahons on TV, etc. 

 

Wanna be a real wrestling fan?  Try watching Mabel get a main event push sometime and come back for more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't like that assumption. I was real young back in 96-97 & grew up not having my own room nor my own TV & due to that I just couldn't watch wrestling (no way my mom would sit through it). Once I moved around 98'-99' I finally got my own room & my own TV & could finally watch wrestling. I'll admit that I didn't really know much about wrestling then (hell, I was a mark back then). As time went on, things like the internet came along for me & it started to open my eyes about the business.

 

I don't think it would be too fair to label someone like me as a "bandwagon jumper" just because I started to watch in 98 considering I really had no means to watch before then.

 

I also believe that the reason why so many people are complaining about the current WWE product is a mixture of the typical smark overanalayzing & the laziness of the WWE creative team. Hardcore fans are just way too difficult to please. I'm not saying that the current product couldn't be any better & it can & should be. Me personally, I don't think we'll ever see another boom period like in 98 again.

 

But it's things like the lack of overanalyzing which have kept my tolerance in check in regards to watching WWE. I'm not a mark but then again I'm not a smark. I guess you can call me a "casuasmark" or something because I don't watch each match & start complaining about how "he didn't apply the armbar" or "he isn't selling enough" or whatever. I don't care about workrate all that much. If I find something remotely entertaining about something then I watch. Simple as that. If I wanted straight wrestling then there's always TNA.

[cabbageboy 0]

You know what's sad? I used to WATCH Thunder and to be honest I can't even remember enough about any of the shows to recall how much dead time was there. Though the fact that I can't recall speaks volumes for the quality of the show.

 

Raw in 2002 had some decent stretches. The post split shows with Austin/Bradshaw vs. the NWO were truly hideous and of course the Katie Vick angle later in the year alienated nearly anyone who saw it. But once they got the NWO nonsense out of their system there were a few solid months until both Eddie and Benoit defected to Smackdown. That hurt Raw a lot.

 

I don't care if they do some follies like the Diva Search as long as it is kept short and inoffensive. First off, they HAVE to get the titles on people who are actually over and credible. The secondary champs are both total jokes, the tag division is dead on both shows. If you look at quality times in the WWF from the past, there were excellent IC and tag divisions.

 

It's not like the NWA is a real promotion or anything...hell just pull a Bischoff and raid some of this talent.

[Guest jumpingbombangel]

People who started watching wrestling in 1998 or so aren't real wrestling fans in my view.  Those are the bandwagon types who just enjoyed the shock sports entertainment stuff, like seeing the McMahons on TV, etc. 

 

Wanna be a real wrestling fan?  Try watching Mabel get a main event push sometime and come back for more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The older adults in my family told me I wasn't a true fan back in 1990 when I bragged that I've been watching since Hulk Hogan made it big back in 84...just because they happened to be from Atlanta and fans all their lives, going to live events weekly, and I was just a fan of "cartoon WWF." Whether they were right or not is up for debate, but I have been full of disdain for elitist fans of anything ever since then. They're all full of shit.

 

I wouldn't peg newcomer fans if I were you, because some of those people with a true love of what they're watching will go back and watch those old tapes to catch themselves up, much like I had to do with AWA and NWA tapes.

 

With that said, I grew weary back in 2003 when I slowly came to realize that after 2 years, nothing, nothing, not a damn thing would ever become of the invasion, the "wrestling story of the millenium." ECW was dead, WCW was dead, and WWF died when it became the WWE. Ever since then they've had their head up their asses trying to reconcile wrestling with the entertainment industry without realizing that it's oil and water.

 

But I was around in 1993-1994 with the Lex Express, Doink, and red-mohawked yipping Tatanka, patiently waiting for the next big boom. It always happens, because wrestling is cyclical. I give it 3 years before Stephanie realizes (or someone comes to the realization for her) that she's fucking retarded and puts the creative power in more capable hands.

[Fro 0]

This is the kind of thing people have been talking about for at least a couple years as far as the WWE product goes.

 

I really doubt Raw is going to completely tank and become pure Sports Entertainment since HHH is there and he's a huge Flair/NWA golden era mark.

 

There's enough good stuff going on, plus Cornette has made me a mark for a lot of the misused OVW alumni that I'll keep watching.

 

WWE long ago lost me from the B-Shows and I'm definitely not afraid to miss the crappy parts of Smackdown. I roll my eyes at the parts that make me embarassed to tell anyone I watch this stuff.

 

This last week was bad and there's a glut of bad angles at the moment, but there's fortunately some pretty good ones.

 

Not saying it's great TV right now but things have been a lot worse.

 

As long as they keep rolling up a decent/good match or two on all the shows, it'll be hard for them to lose me, although I'm definitely more of a fan of TNA and OVW than WWE at the moment.

 

About the "new fans", if people started watching in 1998 and stuck around this long, they're there for the wrestling and not for the storylines. The only pet peeve I have with them is people who were literally kids back then (who are now 15-16) trying to act like they know everything and lecturing me on how some of those angles went.

 

But hey, I did the same thing on RSPW back in 96 or 97, so I guess that's part of being an Internet Smark In Training.

[Guest DeathBecomesYou]

I've been a fan of WWF/E for about 12 years now and right now, i've just about lost all interest in the company. I've gone from religiously watching anything and everything WWE puts out to watching maybe 20 minutes of the main shows and the odd Velocity/Heat match. Especially after the ECW show, which was such a refreshing change, to go back to crappy angles and trashy diva shit was a bit too much.

[Danville_Wrestling 0]

Yea, my interest is starting to get away from the WWE right now too, which I hate to admit. I got into the WWE around 1995 and I think that here, ten years later, we are in worse shape. I know 1995 had the terrible KOTR tournament, the Diesel push as champion, Jeff Jarrett doing a HTM job as the IC Champion, etc. BUT compared to what we see today I'd still take it. At least back then we had HBK and Bret Hart busting out some decent matches on the undercard, Owen Hart & Yokozuna doing a decent job as tag team champions, and a good Survivor Series pay-per-view that year (well at least I think so).

 

Plus, back in 1995 we didn't have any of this "sports entertainment" garbage with long interviews on RAW or the stupid Diva Search. I just felt back then, even though I was more of a mark than a smark, that the product as better compared to today.

 

A perfect example of my wanning interest occurred towards the beginning of 2003 when I stopped my subscription to the WWE Magazine. I figured that when they decided to give each brand it's own magazine that that would be all for me and didn't renew the subscription as a financial form of protest. Besides, I felt that WWE Magazine went TOTALLY downhill when Vince Russo stopped writing for it, but that's just me. Think about it: the old WWE Magazine in 1995 had the KOTR special (which while silly was a fun read), the Scoop cartoons (which I thought were funny too), the 'Informer' bit, and great play-by-play results by Keith Elliot Greenberg for the pay-per-view events. By 1999, though, those play-by-play things got pushed to the side to make way for "better pictures." Whatever.

 

Sorry for the mini-rant, but all in all my interest is wanning. Three terrible Raws and a bad house show I saw in Lexington have me questioning why I still watch. However, I'm a hardcore fan and I'm going to stick through the product even though the WWE is sorely in need of competition. I was happier than anyone when WWE beat WCW b/c all my friends were big WCW people, but after it died I realized how much I missed flipping to it if the WWE product got bad.

[Guest Jack Potts]

To me, it seems as if Vince and Co. use the whole "wrestling is cyclical" argument to engage in lazy, uncreative booking. True, the business can't be red-hot all the time, but that's no excuse not to continually come up with new innovative ways to freshen up the product and build new stars. It's like they just keep reaching into their same worn-out bag of tricks and throw the same tired gimmicks (stutterers, narcissists, LoD, Hogan, evil foreigners) at the audience, hoping they will work. If nothing works, they just shrug their shoulders and say, "Ah, it's the cyclical nature of the business. It'll come around soon enough."

[Lord of The Curry 0]

London vs Nunzio from Velocity was fuckin hot.

 

Just sayin'.

[SuperJerk 0]

I have not been watching wrestling that long, but up until now I always understood what they were TRYING to do with the storylines. Even if it was stupid, I saw where they were coming from and why they thought it might work. The NWO return, Jericho's pussy title reign, HHH/Austin teaming up after WMX7, having DX go over the Radicals...I didn't always like it, but I knew WHY they thought it was a good idea.

 

Since the draft ended, I've got no clue anymore. Their rationale for pushing Heidenreich as a new Road Warrior, or burying Batista and Christian, having a chick with a mutant growth on her face as a regular character, putting Snitsky in main events...

 

...I'm really at a total loss. Raw's a better show on paper, but it seriously boring to watch since everyone knows Cena will retain, and the Hardy run-ins are already stale.

 

I'm giving them until Summerslam to keep me interested.

[tommytomlin 0]

Partly due to the scheduling of RAW and Smackdown on Australian cable TV (RAW screens 3:30pm the day after it airs in America, Smackdown at 3:30pm a few hours after it airs in America), I haven't watched a full episode of either program in ages. I catch the replays on the weekends, but by then I already know most of what happens.

 

Parts of both shows definitely interest me (Hogan/HBK, Rey/Eddie, Matt Hardy) and so do lots of the stars, but everything is so formulaic. I used to be able to watch three hours of Nitro and two hours of RAW every week, now the only things I watch in full are the PPVs. I don't think I've grown out of wrestling (considering I spend most of my time on the internet reading about it), it's just wrestling hasn't changed much since 2001.

 

Look at the massive differences between the WWF in 1999 and the WWF in 1995. Or WCW in 2000 and WCW in 1996. Huge changes in presentation, angles and characters. The difference between the WWE in 2005 and 2001, aside from some new faces?

 

Zip. The formula hasn't changed. There hasn't been a big angle since the Invasion, and that was a flop. Five or so years of the same stuff doesn't do much to perk your interest.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I give it 3 years before Stephanie realizes (or someone comes to the realization for her) that she's fucking retarded and puts the creative power in more capable hands.

 

It's been 5 years already, if the plug hasn't been pulled on the Stephanie Experiment, it will never be. You gotta realize that this is Vince's Grand Plan - Shane takes over the business side, Steph takes over the creative side. Much like Linda and Vince now. You think Vince is going to give up THAT?

 

In relation to the topic, the WWE's worst enemy right now is Time. Everyone has their breaking point - some people it's one month of bad shows, some people it's one year, and then there's people like us who are still watching after 5 years - but watching much less and the number of people here watching this time next year will be cut by 20%. In two years, half the people posting here won't be. Three years, I imagine the vast majority won't be.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The whole "wrestling is cyclical" argument is total BS. I recall Scott Keith summarizing it pretty well (and I know he's basically persona non grata around here), but he said something like: "No one has ever tried to chart or explain the cycle of the wrestling business. It's just an excuse for bad writing and booking." I think that is accurate. WWE could start a new "boom cycle" if they wanted to try breaking out of their current booking habits and try to get a hot angle started.

[Guest NateRizzle]

The only thing keeping me interested in professional wrestling at this point.

[cabbageboy 0]

I still think I was misunderstood in that original post...I was mainly ranting against the casual fans who watched wrestling in 1998/99 because it was cool.

 

It hasn't been mentioned but I think the move back to USA will pick things up a bit. I recall hearing that USA had network people who aided in Raw's overall product whereas I've never heard of anyone mentioning a TNN/Spike exec overseeing Raw. I honestly think this is needed again. TNN originally was just so glad to get the WWF on the network that they let them do whatever.

 

At the end of the day there simply needs to be an alternative. I'm hoping the NWA can get their shit together and bust it out on Spike, but they have several problems of their own.

[Guest Arnold_OldSchool]

I've been watching since 1985 and don't see myself stopping, but RAW and SD! have been mostly back ground noise as I play on the CPU

 

I think growing up on squash matches has lowered my expectations

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

London vs Nunzio from Velocity was fuckin hot.

 

Just sayin'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Velocity is the best show in the company and it got cancelled. Too bad because I make more of an effort to watch it than I do the other shows anymore.