UFC: Unleashed

[Lei Tong 0]

I'm not disagreeing with the gripping, just wanted to calrify about the forearm across the neck part of the technique.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

American pro wrestling has guys that supposedly "hate" each other one minute and then are cracking jokes together and complimenting each other at media events and in interviews the next.

 

That *same thing* happens in MMA. Trigg will talk insane trash on Matt Hughes before the fight, then after it they'll be smiling with each other and hugging.

 

This discussion has gotten derailed - the initial point was that UFC's presentation of its product is better than the WWE's. The WWE could easily present theirs in the same way as the UFC's and manage to sell PPV's based on it. The WWE doesn't have to run shows the way they are running shows - and a pro wrestling event can be put under an MMA (or boxing) format and be successful, even if the content isn't "real". There can be comparisons between MMA and Pro Wrestling because what is ultimately being sold -the matches- are the same. UFC chooses to take the serious, toned down route (though those Superbrawl informercials certainly aren't) while Pro Wrestling likes to go over-the-top with theatrics. PRIDE, meanwhile, is in between the two.

 

I know you want to distance pro wrestling and MMA, because you're protective of MMA from being associated with "works", which is why there is some hate for PW from MMA fans. But, dude, lighten up. No one here believes the UFC works their matches, so if pro wrestling terminology gets attached to it that's just wrestling fans applying wrestling terms to other things.

 

And a sleeper hold in professional wrestling isn't a choke in terms arm-across-throat. Chokes like that are illegal in professional wrestling. A sleeper is when you push your opponents head and chin down to their throat and putting pressure to the sides of the neck thus cutting off the blood and 02 to their brain and making them go to sleep - hmm... sounds familiar

[starvenger 0]

I know you want to distance pro wrestling and MMA, because you're protective of MMA from being associated with "works", which is why there is some hate for PW from MMA fans.  But, dude, lighten up.  No one here believes the UFC works their matches, so if pro wrestling terminology gets attached to it that's just wrestling fans applying wrestling terms to other things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true. MMA enhancement talent JTTS "tomato cans" have a much better shot of winning a match than PW enhancement talent do...

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

So what matt Hughes ended up doing to Trigg and the way Fedor did it to Fujita are not technically RNC's? They are more like sleeper holds? Because Fedor gripped his hands like that as well. How can you break the person's arm that does it in that way?

 

I just thought that they were different grips accomplishing the same thing. The normal way I guess is to just grab your bicep with the choking arm than wrap the other arm around the person's head, which is how I do it and how I've seen it done.

[cameron chaos 0]

Fedor/Fujita... Fedor was PISSED Fujita got him to to the fish dance and choked the shit out of him in the most damaging way possible, which is a tracheal choke. Blood chokes put people unconscious and need to be applied for an extended amount of time to kill (2-3 minutes), tracheal chokes if applied with enough force can crush the wind pipe or cause the trache to swell to the point the person can't breathe. The nearest wrestling comparison I can think of is RVD swelling up HH's windpipe with a botched 5* frog splash during an Elimination Chamber. If you look at the footage you'll actually see Fedor express *gasp* emotion by gritting his teeth in determination and anger during the choke and then kicking Fujita off of him before his one handed "victory" stroll around the ring. Blood chokes are closer to "sleeper holds" (Jim Ross will often lie about "blood flow being slowed via the carotid artery), tracheal chokes are vicious and extremely damaging. I did a modified "baseball bat" choke from knee ride to a fellow club member and a week later he was still having trouble eating which actually made me feel really shitty.

 

To break the person applying the choke's arm, you have to grab their wrist before they put it to their opposite shoulder, put your hand on the back of your head, bring your elbow towards your chin and then just yank their wrist down while their is over your ball shoulder joint. You will invert and effectively destroy their elbow if you do it with enough force. It's a very dangerous, damaging but effective counter to the RNC although you have to time it right. I teach it but do not advise using it in sparring unless you are cautious and controlled because it can be extremely destructive and lead to reconstructive surgery, putting a guy on the bench for 3-8 months depending on the severity of the injury. It can even leave people lame and unable to use their lower arm so it's pretty hostile.

 

Trigg is much like Baronu in his methods of hype although the difference is Baroni buys his hype while Trigg is a smart marketing minded guy. You just have to look at him shamelessly appearing on that Jerry Hall reality show to pimp his clothing line as proof that he believes no publicity is the only bad publicity. He was actually extremely complimentary towards Matt on MMA Weekly radio about Penn, Before the GSP fight and even before their second clash.

 

Rudo, I can name many works off the top of my head in MMA (Coleman/Takada, Kimo/Sakuraba, Hume/Shamrock) and accept they have happened and accept pro wrestling does have connections to MMA however in my mind comparing MMA to wrestling is like comparing boxing to the Sopranos. Both feature violence, characters and rash talk, however one is real and one is entertainment. For every "behind the scenes clash" there is a "work" but the majority of the time they are far from being on the same level of entertainment in my estimation. I think WWE would be better trying to go back to more catch style roots but using fast counter grappling like Newton/Sakuraba over crap like cornflake tumour girl, CM Punk the deaf guy and Matt M-M-Morgan but it seems disabilities are the new "in" WWE thing. I have liked how in the past they have put over Angle's abilities in pure wrestling but they've went and pissed on that using him as a stalker even though his own wife is hotter than Sharmell could hope to be. They seemed confused themselves in their booking (shoot style HBK/Hogan segments, Matt Hardy/Edge etc) while at the same time running asinine storylines on Smackdown (Rey shot blanks but managed to have two kids beforehand... and he's not even close to 45? Angle has a smoking wife and baby daughter but stalks a loud mouth street talking annoying woman who is already married? Eddie Guerrero went from being Rey's "familia" to attempting to destroy his family out of jealousy and anger from losing repeatedly (shouldn'y he be angry and disappointed in himself much like when he lost to the Big Show instead based on his character history?) so it's impossible to figure out what they want to be taken seriously anymore, if anything at all. UFC generally just presented 5 minute videos running interview portions in reply to one another ("I learned the first time how he fights... he's got to prove in his mind it wasn't a fluke" "It wasn't a fluke, I choked him out and he tapped and I'll do the same tonight") while WWE usually devote video packages to each wrestler individually to put them over. I personally would prefer them adopting UFC's video package style but I don't see that happening given McMahon and Dunn's collective ego.

 

Cans win out of nowhere now and then. Minowa/Kimo and Randleman/Cro Cop I spring to mind more recently. Further back you could argue Sakuraba was positioned as one before he defied the odds against BJJ black belts.

 

If anyone has any questions for big Nog or Sperry, PM before August the 27th and I'll do my best to ask them when I'm over at BTT Barcelona for the week.

 

Update: Shannon got back to me and apparently "constriction of the body by the legs is strictly prohibited" in amateur wrestling however Matt Lindland said "you'd have to be stupid to go for a body triangle in amateur wrestling anyway, you'd get pinned as soon as the guy rolled to the side and bridged back". No body triangle or "figure four" in amateur wrestling according to Lindland. She said she'd try ask Randy as well for me but she's going to be very busy over the weekend due to the show so she'll get back to me in full Monday or Tuesday.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Ask Nog how it felt when he armbarred Crocop. That must've felt awesome after the shit-kicking he took.

[AmericanDragon 0]

So what matt Hughes ended up doing to Trigg and the way  Fedor did it to Fujita are not technically RNC's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't really remember what position Hughes had his hands in but Fedor used his wrist to submit Fujita. Just put yourself in Fedor's position and then imagine him putting a rod around Fujita's throat and then pulling back. You can put a wrist choke on really fast but rear naked chokes are harder to get out of.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

So what matt Hughes ended up doing to Trigg and the way  Fedor did it to Fujita are not technically RNC's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't really remember what position Hughes had his hands in but Fedor used his wrist to submit Fujita. Just put yourself in Fedor's position and then imagine him putting a rod around Fujita's throat and then pulling back. You can put a wrist choke on really fast but rear naked chokes are harder to get out of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yeah that was essentially my question. Those are the windpipe chokes the guy was talking about. When you grab your wrist like that the gripping is different and on a different spot, I just needed clarification.

 

Heh, one time in sparring I had that Fedor match in mind and the other guy was in turtle position, whom was just giving me fits right before. Just like Fedor I gritted my teeth, went behind the guy and yanked his head backwards into what I tried to make a rnc, but I only got back control as he defended the choke well, or I didn't apply it well. I couldn't get it before time expired

 

Trigg is a classy guy, while he talks a lot of trash on interviews for PPV's, he generally is just very open and speaks his mind about most things. He actually has a lot of respect for Matt Hughes, and same for BJ Penn. I just wish the guy would beat Matt, it seems like Zuffa wants him out since they don't feel he will ever be champ.

[starvenger 0]

So what matt Hughes ended up doing to Trigg and the way  Fedor did it to Fujita are not technically RNC's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't really remember what position Hughes had his hands in but Fedor used his wrist to submit Fujita. Just put yourself in Fedor's position and then imagine him putting a rod around Fujita's throat and then pulling back. You can put a wrist choke on really fast but rear naked chokes are harder to get out of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hughes-Trigg I finished with a RNC that looked suspiciously like a sleeper hold from a piggyback - a "Japanese sleeper", to use an old 80s PW term. Hughes-Trigg II is coming up on Unleashed soon, so we'll see.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Just wanted to say I'm surprised they're showing Rizzo-couture I since the majority opinion is that Couture had a controversial win (never saw it) so you'd think they would show the second bout, where he won decisively. They should show both anyway.

 

My cable box says that there is a UFC unleashed at 8, anyone know what that is?

[Guest AndrewisyourHero]

Same one as aired on Monday after RAW

[cameron chaos 0]

Ask Nog how it felt when he armbarred Crocop. That must've felt awesome after the shit-kicking he took.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Will do.

[AmericanDragon 0]

Some prelim results are out at http://forums.mmaweekly.com/Toast.asp?sub=...fid=2&tid=91607

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Randy Couture please wash the taste of UFN out of my mouth.

[Guest Askewniverse]

Liddell just lit up Ortiz.

[Guest Brian]

Who else caught Rizzo-Couture?

[Guest]

I saw it, but I'm not too inclined to comment. I'm trying to get in to MMA as best as I can, and that was a pretty nice match that got me more interested in looking to find older tapes.

[DMann2003 0]

Hey I got a question, how does one apply a ***** scale to a MMA contest like UFC? I mean, the rules have to change a bit right, workrate doesn't exactly fit because in a real contest without prethought out spots or finishes, and while restholds may still mean the same, in prowrestling it's usually considered a negative because the wrestlers are blown up and trying to plan out there next sequence of moves. Plus, move variety wouldn't be as important right, so I take it number and effectiveness of strikes and takedowns is given higher presedence.]

 

Or am I just plain nutty asking this?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I give MMA fights a star rating. Story and Drama are two things I highly value - take Smith/Coleman. It's one of my favourite matches because the story is fantastic - Coleman is thought to be unbeatable, but through some fantastic guard work and blocking, the underdog Smith is able to weather the storm and Coleman gets tired. Smith then takes over for the duration of the match. The crowd chants "Coleman" in the first few minutes and then "Smith" in the last few.

 

Exchanges, both striking and grappling are important as well. They don't have to be mutual - you can have an all striking match like Griffin/Bonnar was for the most part, or you can have a primarily grappling match like Sakuraba/Newton. It's hard to find a match that has a great amount of exchanges in both, but the ones that do are amazing. Diaz/Parisyan was sorta like that, and it was my 04 MOTY.

 

Pacing is very important - stalling for an extended period of time is a big negative. Even if you're working for position, it's a helluva lot better than laying in someones guard or running away.

 

Finishes are good, but not a must-have. Some of my favourite fights have gone to decisions.

 

Amazing technique and strategy matter. Take Fedor/Nog - those are great matches to me, but they are totally one-sided and some people don't rank domination very high. I don't really care as long as the dominant fighter shows great technique and strategy.

[Lei Tong 0]

An example of what I found to be "5 stars:"

 

Hayato Sakurai vs. Frank Trigg: At the time, Sakurai was still undefeated, with the only blemish on his record being a draw with Marcelo Aguiar. Though he would avenge the loss with a decision victory, before the rematch Aguiar was stopped relatively easily by Trigg within 2 rounds. Trigg himself was undefeated, and had found succes in a few different organizations already, including Shooto, Evan Tanner's USWF, WEF and PRIDE. Trigg also offered a style not often seen in the Japanese organizations (especially Shooto) at the time: a strong wrestler who could throw leather as well.

 

For the 1st round of the fight, Trigg brutalized Sakurai. He outwrestled him and bloodied him with G&P, at one point even moving Sakurai under the ring ropes and continuing with strikes, reminiscent of how Sakurai had finished Haraldo Bunn just a year before. However, in the 2nd round, Sakurai turned the tide with a picture perfect left hook which sent Trigg crumpling to the mat. Trigg popped back up and proclaimed no need for Shooto's standing 8 count or for the referee to check his condition, but upon reengaging, it was obvious that he was still feeling the affects of the punches. Sakurai followed up with some of his trademark kneestrikes, sending Trigg back to the mat two more times for the come-from-behind victory.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

My version of a ***** match would have to be Minotauro-Cro Cop, though there's a lot of personal bias in that rating. There always wil lbe though, for a ***** match since it has to involve the person emotionally, in my opinion anyway.

[AmericanDragon 0]

Today's Unleashed has Liddell vs Horn.

 

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=armtri39

[Exslade ZX 0]

Well...UFC Knockouts is on right now, don't know if that deserved its' own thread or not..

 

But holy SHIT some of these things look nasty. That gash the guy just had on his head (didn't get names) was NASTY, and then they had the nerve to pull it back some, wow.

[AmericanDragon 0]

Well...UFC Knockouts is on right now, don't know if that deserved its' own thread or not..

 

But holy SHIT some of these things look nasty. That gash the guy just had on his head (didn't get names) was NASTY, and then they had the nerve to pull it back some, wow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah Belfort opened a vagina on Eastman's head.

 

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I'm going to be 100% honest with you guys.

 

That Liddell/Horn Unleashed fucking kicked my ass. AWESOME!!!

[AmericanDragon 0]

It's almost time for Florian vs Karalexis.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I am officially dubbing Kenny "The Lazy Samurai".

 

Good job at putting over his elbows, that shot was vicious. Awesome first round, Kenny was lacing Alex with the leg kicks to the side, I can't believe he didn't learn after the first 4 or so. Wish Kenny could've shown the ground skills but good defense by Karaleksis brought it to the feet.

 

Oh, and the victory pose was fucking righteous.

[Crimson Platypus 0]

Well...UFC Knockouts is on right now, don't know if that deserved its' own thread or not..

 

But holy SHIT some of these things look nasty. That gash the guy just had on his head (didn't get names) was NASTY, and then they had the nerve to pull it back some, wow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah Belfort opened a vagina on Eastman's head.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How the fuck do you do that to someone without a weapon???

[starvenger 0]

Well...UFC Knockouts is on right now, don't know if that deserved its' own thread or not..

 

But holy SHIT some of these things look nasty. That gash the guy just had on his head (didn't get names) was NASTY, and then they had the nerve to pull it back some, wow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kerri Kasem looked quite slutty. I think she looked hotter on Beg Borrow & Deal 2 though - of course, if noone but me watched that show, did it really happen?

 

How the fuck do you do that to someone without a weapon???

I think Florian did something similar to Fratboy on TUF...