"He needs to spend more time in OVW...."

[King Cucaracha 0]

"BTW, Fishyswa trying to prove that Masters is "over" without needing help getting over is sad."

 

That seems silly considering my whole point is he's NOT over.

 

 

And I don't see the problem with the full nelson. It's a submission, it really does hurt, and as long as both people make it look good what's the problem? Anyone complaining about a Hansen lariat ending a match despite how standard a move it is?

 

OVERNESS IS NOT JUST FOR FACES!!!!!

 

Man, this is a train-wreck. HTQ has the right idea with this Ignore Button treatment.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

"BTW, Fishyswa trying to prove that Masters is "over" without needing help getting over is sad."

 

That seems silly considering my whole point is he's NOT over.

 

Thank you for admitting it. Now that wasn't so hard, was it?

[Guest Fishyswa]

"So, in other words, "I don't agree with you so you are wrong". He gets no worthwhile heat,"

 

What the hell is worthwhile heat? The man get's booed, a heel's job is to get booed. Tell me what I'm missing here, PLEASE.

 

""certainly not compared to his position on the card. It's not like I'm the only one who thinks so."

 

And what position is that? He's held no titles, he's beaten no major players, all he's done is work a few Raw main's and have a built up fued with a name. That's what ALL characters should be doing. It happens in one instance to a guy someone particularly doesn't like and all of the sudden he's in some "position" he hasn't earned? Get real.

 

" Do you find it odd that there's at least four people who've argued against Masters' heat in this thread and you're the only one who thinks he's over. Maybe that should tell you something?"

 

Yeah that's a great mentality, abandon what I believe, logic and reason, in favor of the current general concencus. I hope you teach your kids the same thing.

 

""X-Pac sucks". "Bossman sucks". If you think those are POSITIVE and if you even think of comparing them to "Angle sucks", you're obviously a lost cause. Well, even more than currently."

 

Not liking a heel is not liking a heel. Did either man have an impact on business? NO. So what suggests it's a different kind of heat? What evidence is there?

 

"Okay...Raw two weeks ago, your starter for 10. Please point out an occassion where the crowd WAS hot for his entrance, like the heat machine you believe him to be."

 

When he came out and posed. That's not hard. There's when he comes down the aisle too. He got booed, which is heat, which means hot. That should be as easy as it gets.

 

"Yes. I honestly don't remember any more than 5% of the audience booing him against Stevie."

 

I remember at least 20%, and that's pretty good for a new character considering on average 10% of the crowd can be doing nothing all night. Now you get him to screw a national hero in the home-country and the guy will be pushing 95%. That kind of stuff takes time to fester though.

 

"THEY DON'T!!! There's literally zero reaction to his posedown entrance. NONE!"

 

Good to see you proving things rather than just wildly claiming it's truth.

 

"It's changed to TV experience now? Right, sorry, hard to keep up with you at times."

 

Was there a difference?

 

"And came through too soon."

 

That's a failure in booking. You run minimal programs somewhere and put him right into one it's gonna be tough to properly convey that intensity that makes great fueds. It also leads to segment fuck ups and the like. Heat and Velocity should of been mini-raw/sd's, as opposed to exhibitions and recapping, but that's a different problem entirely.

 

"Uhm...what? Overness is people REACTING to you. Heel or face. Angle is over. Edge is over. The Heart-Throbs are not. Chris Masters is not. Not only faces can be over. If you're going to use technical terms, at least study and figure out what they actually mean, please."

 

No overness is people liking you. "I'm over with her parents", "He's so over with the girls". It's a horribly misused term really, so I can't blame you, but it doesn't mean anything relating to a heel's heat. So many people use it it's ridiculous.

 

"So, I'm wrong without proof...but you need no proof whatsoever? Pretty lame, Fishyswa."

 

I'm not the one making out-there claims like "the crowd DIDN'T REACT AT ALL!!!!" am I? I've maintained nothing other than the guy gets booed, he's a heel, so he's doing his job. If your gonna say he doesn't deserve the spot, tell me the criteria and how he doesn't match it, prove that the crickets I haven't been hearing on Raw every week are really there, do something other than say you are right 3043 times, repeating the same points I got out of the way about 10 posts ago on the way.

 

"He hasn't won anyone over. Yes, heels are supposed to make people hate them. But they're supposed to do it by being a dick and making people buy tickets to see them get beaten within an inch of their life."

 

Damn right.

 

"See Copeland, Adam."

 

A guy with a legit asshole story exploited in his favor who's been established with big matches and a solid face run. Kiiiiiiiiiind of hard to compare.

 

"Masters doesn't do that."

 

No he's not that lucky.

 

"The most basic concept in all of wrestling is...MAKE MONEY."

 

Very good, and do you understand the basic concept of how to do that?

 

"Masters doesn't do that."

 

Proof, give me numbers, show how a certain buyrate trend proves no one was interested in his first PPV match, fan surveys, anything.

 

"Please learn to tell the difference."

 

The difference is irrelevant. The point is him doing the job, he's a heel, he gets booed, tell me what he's missing. If his reactions go a little lame and he gets a title, than I see your point, but this guy's done nothing yet and people are acting like he's being made into the next Goldberg. Let's remember he LOST his first big match.

 

" He's done nothing to make people hate him in the way that matters...financially."

 

PROVE IT. If your gonna say something that has to be backed by numbers, BRING THE NUMBERS. This is just getting silly.

 

"Masters getting a death threat? Are you that dillusional that you think people care that much about him?"

 

Ok, please tell me how that went over your head? Are the words you're reading just jumping around to form some crazy arguement about how awesome Masters is and how he's as hot as HBK in Canada? Talk about dellusional...

 

"Christ almighty. Christian sells t-shirts, he's a good heel. Flair didn't sell t-shirts and was still a good heel."

 

Once they make Masters t-shirts I'm sure they'll sell, but a heel isn't really supposed to merchandise, unless there's a sarcastic edge to it or something. Just kills the 'fabe. But of course that's another problem that's pretty irrelevant.

 

"Pot...kettle...black?"

 

All three can hold water?

 

"Well, unless I spend my time digging up a bunch of numbers you'll only ignore, I'm wrong."

 

Why would I ignore the numbers I've been begging for? I'd LOVE to see these numbers, it would change my outlook on the entire thing. The problem is these numbers don't exist.

 

"And when I do, I'll still be wrong. Where's the proof this magnificent heat magnet DRAWS ratings?"

 

Heels don't draw ratings, matches or segments where you can see a heel get beat up draws ratings.

 

"And I'm the one without clever insults?"

 

And the one who has trouble reading apparently. But I'm not here to make fun....

[Guest Fishyswa]

"OVERNESS IS NOT JUST FOR FACES!!!!!"

 

Yeah it is. Faces get over, heels get disliked. It's why when you say a heel get's over, you have to have the qualifier that doesn't even qualify, "as a heel". You don't "get over as a heel". It's basically an oxymoron.

 

"Man, this is a train-wreck. HTQ has the right idea with this Ignore Button treatment."

 

The guy who randomly posted irrelevant shit just to egg people on gave you an idea of ignoring someone? That's what I call a train wreck.

[bob_barron 0]

Reading Fishyswa's post with "" instead of the quote button and the two posts on Page 2 that screwed up the quotes makes this an impossible thread to read.

 

Although I do think it's pointless for someone like Porter to come in and just be like: Your wrong, without adding anything to the discussion.

[Guest Fishyswa]

^It's easier than typing the tags in fastreply, and it prevents the horrible quote box overlapping that happens in long threads.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Reading Fishyswa's post with "" instead of the quote button and the two posts on Page 2 that screwed up the quotes makes this an impossible thread to read.

 

Although I do think it's pointless for someone like Porter to come in and just be like: Your wrong, without adding anything to the discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which is why I decided to break down Fishyswa's post. The quote tags weren't working for some reason. Anyways I'm sick of this debate. Have fun Fishyswa and whoever has the misfortune of trying to debate him.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Considering I've had in-ring training with Joey Matthews (Mercury) and Mike Mondo, who are/were OVW stars, I think it's safe for me to say that it isn't OVW. They are being trained by Dean Malenko, Lance Storm (or was, I don't remember if he is still there), and William Regal.

 

 

I learned more from Mondo and Matthews in a few days then I did in a whole month under Whipwreck (no offense to him). And they only taught me a little bit from what they knew.

 

 

So yeah, it's being called up too early that is the problem. Not OVW.

[Toxxic 0]

Well, I think it's fair to say that the OVW *system* isn't working that well, whether you count that as the type of person they have there, the training or Vince & co. ignoring Cornette on who's ready and who isn't. So sending people back to OVW *could* work if it was a case of early callup, but then again Nathan Jones went through twice and look what happened to him...

 

In other news, I agree about Masters. I don't remember hardly anyone reacting JUST TO HIM. When Triple H comes out people boo like fuck. When Angle comes out he gets the 'You Suck' chants. Masters, unless he's doing something heelish to a face, gets very little. People don't react to his PRESENCE and his presence alone, at least not as far as I can see on my TV.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Man, this is a train-wreck. HTQ has the right idea with this Ignore Button treatment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm glad someone is finally seeing the light.

 

Although I do think it's pointless for someone like Porter to come in and just be like: Your wrong, without adding anything to the discussion.

 

Normally, I would agree, but trying to debate with someone like Fishyswa is pointless. He's been proven wrong over and over again on the point he tried to make, and yet he still refuses to admit he was wrong. What else can you do with someone like that?

 

So yeah, it's being called up too early that is the problem. Not OVW.

 

One more for the good guys.

[Guest Fishyswa]

"Considering I've had in-ring training with Joey Matthews (Mercury) and Mike Mondo, who are/were OVW stars, I think it's safe for me to say that it isn't OVW. They are being trained by Dean Malenko, Lance Storm (or was, I don't remember if he is still there), and William Regal."

 

Still, they went through, came up and weren't prepared. No matter what talent's there, it's clear the system isn't working. I'm not saying Malenko, Storm and Regal can't train people or the environment is the problem, but when they go through OVW and don't come up ready, regardless of time spent, I don't see how them going back is more beneficial to their developement than staying on TV.

 

"I learned more from Mondo and Matthews in a few days then I did in a whole month under Whipwreck (no offense to him). And they only taught me a little bit from what they knew."

 

I'm not disputing the people there and what they know, more so something else that just isn't preparing these guys.

 

"So yeah, it's being called up too early that is the problem. Not OVW."

 

But there's no way Vince will just ignore someone telling him a guy won't work on TV, especially since he hired that guy for that reason. I just can't buy that, he's an asshole, but he's a smart business man more so.

 

"In other news, I agree about Masters. I don't remember hardly anyone reacting JUST TO HIM. When Triple H comes out people boo like fuck. When Angle comes out he gets the 'You Suck' chants. Masters, unless he's doing something heelish to a face, gets very little. People don't react to his PRESENCE and his presence alone, at least not as far as I can see on my TV."

 

He wasn't established at all so it's obvious people won't just react to him, Angle and especially Triple H are well established, and shouldn't be compared to someone like Masters.

 

And I disagree completely about presence. It takes presence to have people react to heelish things. If I went out there and beat my little brother up for 5 minutes, uninspired, I wouldn't have the crowd caring. If Masters did it, people would care more, they'd be more worried about my little brother, they'd hate him for being empowered and an asshole. Presence is something you establish and run with. How well it translates on TV in segments and doing mic work is a different's tory entirely.

 

"I'm glad someone is finally seeing the light."

 

Do you have any idea what ignore even means? I'll give you a hint, you're not doing it.

 

"Normally, I would agree, but trying to debate with someone like Fishyswa is pointless. He's been proven wrong over and over again"

 

Show one instance. Just one. Otherwise do us all a favor and really ignore this.

 

"on the point he tried to make, and yet he still refuses to admit he was wrong. What else can you do with someone like that?"

 

Where? Please bring some fucking content. Calling you on your bullshit is getting tedious.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I just realized that Fishyswa is Russo. The way he blatantly disregards facts and spew fantastical shit.

[Guest Fishyswa]

Anyways I'm sick of this debate. Have fun Fishyswa and whoever has the misfortune of trying to debate him.

 

Not sick of randomly coming in to add nothing but bullshit though? If you can't handle a simple debate than just do me a favor and shut the fuck up.

[Dangerous A 0]

But there's no way Vince will just ignore someone telling him a guy won't work on TV, especially since he hired that guy for that reason. I just can't buy that, he's an asshole, but he's a smart business man more so.

 

 

Explain the Boogeyman then.

 

He is not ready.

 

Vince has been told he isn't ready and has done less than 5 matches in front of people. Yet if it weren't for Boogeyman hyperextending both knees, he'd already be on TV. They ran the ads for him and everything.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

But there's no way Vince will just ignore someone telling him a guy won't work on TV, especially since he hired that guy for that reason. I just can't buy that, he's an asshole, but he's a smart business man more so.

 

 

Explain the Boogeyman then.

 

He is not ready.

 

Vince has been told he isn't ready and has done less than 5 matches in front of people. Yet if it weren't for Boogeyman hyperextending both knees, he'd already be on TV. They ran the ads for him and everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They ran those spots for Boogeyman before he'd even wrestled. At all. Yes, Vince McMahon, the 'smart businessmen', ran spots to hype up a guy before he had wrestled one match in his entire life. And yes, he was another guy Cornette didn't use at all untill WWE forced his hand.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Let's try to get back on topic, shall we?

 

When most of us say "He needs to spend more time in OVW...", it is in reference to someone who has potential, but was brought up before he was experienced enough to work properly, both in the ring or with the live crowd. TV experience is overrated, because they are still playing off the live crowd not the television audience. In many cases it is simply because they are too young. Randy Orton in particular wouldn't have experienced nearly the problems he has had trying to get over if he were five years older. As it is, he pretty much had to learn on the job and in a league with seasoned pros like Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero and even mediocre veterans like Bob Holly, that is a big obstacle in being viewed as a threat. Batista has ten years more life experience than Orton, so even though he's only been in the business for about as long, he didn't have nearly the problem getting over. Guys like Randy Orton & Renee Dupree could have really used a lot more time in the minors. They are both decent wrestlers, but it lacks polish (someone like Benoit is a lot more fluid in his movements) and they don't really know how to deal with people, either as far as acting with the other wrestlers or in how they handle the audience. They have potential, but they look green. Orton's been better lately just by having his father hang out with him. I really thought that Matt Morgan had a lot of potential, but bringing him up to soon and giving him a crappy gimmick likely cost him his job. The Rock was almost ruined by putting him on tv before he was ready.

 

Then we get to the other category. These are the guys who I really think don't have any hope, or that it would require so much time and work to make them into decent wrestlers that it isn't worth it. Talent is the problem with these guys, not experience. Chris Masters, Grenier, Jindrak, Carlito, Tomko, etc. fall into this slot. Some of these guys could be bodyguards or managers or interviewers and some have no value at all, but none of them have the ability to become good full-time wrestlers. They could have a miracle turn around, but in my 18 years of watching wrestling I can probably count the number of people that have done so on one hand, the most recent being JBL.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The first category are the kind who really benefit from going on the road with WWE, just doing house shows. Put them against top class workers for 15-minutes a night, and they'll learn a great deal, and will have improved by leaps and bounds after a year of this.

 

The second category almost all have one thing in common; 'the look'.

[cabbageboy 0]

JBL never really "turned it around" or anything. The guy was just flat out given the mega push out of the clear blue. He did nothing to deserve it, and there really aren't many decent matches (not to mention money drawn) that justify his agonizing push.

 

Yes, JBL has had a couple of good bloodbath brawls (The I Quit match, maybe the bloody brawl with Eddie) but I can't think of a decent Bradshaw match that was a standard match.

[Fro 0]

If a guy is tall and/or on massive steroids, they get called up, ready or not. WWE cares about "the look" above all else, no matter if Danny Davis and Heyman (or Cornette in the past) say they need more time training or if they're a lost cause. They can't work miracles and make some roided hoss wrestle like Chris Benoit (hell, Snitsky was only in OVW for a month or so!)

 

There's a bias towards people with the look Vince wants and guys who are great wrestlers like a Nick Dinsmore or a Brent Albright get stuck in OVW for years. OVW has had the best wrestling it's had in its history and it's primarily from guys 6'2" and under which is why you don't see them. You won't see guys like Elijah Burke, Johnny Jeter, Matt Cappotelli, Chris Cage, Mike Mondo, Tank Toland, Chad Toland, Seth Skyfire on TV before every worthless hoss since they aren't roid monsters.

 

Heck, it took all the effort they had to lobby WWE to keep MNM together (who have been officially ruined since they think Nitro and Mercury are mutes, although they did a much better job with them than most OVW guys).

 

The problem is on WWE's end, when they call people up way too early, or when they give someone who's ready a dead-end gimmick. I won't go through the list, but I can count on one hand the number of people who haven't been terribly misused at least initially (and a good percentage of those people got transitioned into dead-end gimmicks).

 

Furthermore, since WWE hates tag teams with a passion apparently, they don't debut these hosses in Tag Teams where they can be protected. Notice how Heidenreich isn't unbearable to watch now that he's teaming with Animal. It's not because he's any better but because he doesn't have to wrestle a 10 minute match by himself!

 

WWE wants to fit every wrestler into a certain mold and has no interest in maximizing the strengths of its wrestlers.

[King Cucaracha 0]

WWE wants to fit every wrestler into a certain mold and has no interest in maximizing the strengths of its wrestlers.

 

That's the big problem. Heyman, if he did one thing over anything else in ECW, new how to hide people's big weaknesses. And it worked pretty well. Couldn't wrestle well...have them in garbage brawls. Couldn't talk...no problem, just make sure they worked well in the ring or gave them a gimmick that didn't need impressive mic work. 911 got over by doing one move over and over, not by wrestling 5 minute matches he wouldn't come out favourably from. Spike got over by getting tossed around a lot. It worked and he wasn't wrestling matches like in Cruiser Division when he was champ, which weren't great.

 

Masters, Grenier and the rest might be tolerable if they would put in the right situation. They almost got it right with Tomko, until they split him from Christian. They almost got Carlito right too once they gave him the talk-show segment. I guess The Masterlock Challenge could be considered hiding weaknesses too, but they ended that about 6 months too early and thought putting him with Shawn Michaels would be a quick fix.

 

Trouble is, with half of the guys mentioned above, is it really worth the effort in hiding their weaknesses? Surely they could give them the TV experience Fishyswa swears by AND keep them training part-time in OVW, if they're given limited roles of course.

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

In my opinion most wrestlers should be debuted in a tag team to learn. They are just not ready to wrestle 10 minute matches on there own so stick them in a tag team and watch them improve etc. The only wrestlers who can go out there on there own are people like Ken Kennedy and Burchill, they have many experience and are ready but Tomko, Carlito, Masters...they need to learn first and a tag team helps a lot.

[cabbageboy 0]

Well, put Masters and Carlito in a tag team and let them win the tag belts...we'd never hear from them again.

 

I actually wonder....does Vince or anyone else even WATCH OVW? Do they not see who is actually over down here, or who can wrestle, etc.?

[ChrisMWaters 0]

In my opinion most wrestlers should be debuted in a tag team to learn. They are just not ready to wrestle 10 minute matches on there own so stick them in a tag team and watch them improve etc. The only wrestlers who can go out there on there own are people like Ken Kennedy and Burchill, they have many experience and are ready but Tomko, Carlito, Masters...they need to learn first and a tag team helps a lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

Which is why, on a similar subject, I hope that Carlito/Kerwin's new caddy is just there to be a tag team partner and learn some stuff while teaming with Kerwin.