Who will have the better 30 Min. Iron Man Match?

[Guest *KNK*]

Wait, were you putting HBK on a list with Kenta FN Kobashi? It's not hard to get Styles and Daniels stuff. It's readily available.

 

Also, Styles isn't near the top 15 in the world but he's still ahead of Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle was only there for 2 years and he is even further away then Michaels is right now.

[Fro 0]

Styles/Daniels just because they won't have to work around a bunch of commerical breaks. They also aren't crippled and can do big highspots (and won't have to worry about upstaging HHH).

 

If Michaels/Angle was on PPV also, it'd be awfully close.

[Guest *KNK*]

Styles/Daniels just because they won't have to work around a bunch of commerical breaks.

 

If Angle/Michaels was on PPV, I'd say it would be better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Justify how Shawn/Angle, whom already had two PPV matches that went 25+ minutes (not quite 30) that were marginally good strokefests would be better with an additional 5 minutes and a pre-determined conclusion to the match (i.e the time)?

[Guest wildpegasus]

Wait, were you putting HBK on a list with Kenta FN Kobashi? It's not hard to get Styles and Daniels stuff. It's readily available.

 

Also, Styles isn't near the top 15 in the world but he's still ahead of Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle was only there for 2 years and he is even further away then Michaels is right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That was a different list than HBK and Angle. HBK vs Kobashi is something to discuss at a different time.

 

You must at least admit that the charisma of Angle and Michaels is top notch.

 

Hard for me to get Styles and Daniels stuff. I can't download right now.

 

 

I didn't watch the 2nd Angle vs Michaels match but I must say you're off on the assesment of the first match. You may not like it as much as others but you can't deny it did a lot of things right. They sucked the crowd in, paced the match well (built a ton of drama and anticipation, gave a contest that had an epic feeling to it and had the crowd guessing until the very end. The superkick to Angle's face while he was badmouthing Michaels was worth the price of admission alone.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I don't think there was much wrong with the WM match, but now when those guys wrestle each other, they're going to be obsessed with topping their previous matches. That will lead them to force things out for the sake of having a classic match, which leads to ridiculously contrived and idiotic wrestling. *points to their rematch*

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I don't think there was anything wrong with the WM match, but now when those guys wrestle each other, they're going to be obsessed with topping their previous matches. That will lead them to force things out for the sake of having a classic match, which leads to ridiculously contrived and idiotic wrestling. *points to their rematch*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That finish was so badly contrived it was ridiculous. You knew exactly what was going to happen the second that Kurt went to the apron, and when you add in that Kurt never goes to the top rope for anything other than to miss a moonsault, it told you right away that the finish was about to happen.

[Guest *KNK*]

Wait, were you putting HBK on a list with Kenta FN Kobashi? It's not hard to get Styles and Daniels stuff. It's readily available.

 

Also, Styles isn't near the top 15 in the world but he's still ahead of Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle was only there for 2 years and he is even further away then Michaels is right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That was a different list than HBK and Angle. HBK vs Kobashi is something to discuss at a different time.

 

You must at least admit that the charisma of Angle and Michaels is top notch.

 

Hard for me to get Styles and Daniels stuff. I can't download right now.

 

 

I didn't watch the 2nd Angle vs Michaels match but I must say you're off on the assesment of the first match. You may not like it as much as others but you can't deny it did a lot of things right. They sucked the crowd in, paced the match well (built a ton of drama and anticipation, gave a contest that had an epic feeling to it and had the crowd guessing until the very end. The superkick to Angle's face while he was badmouthing Michaels was worth the price of admission alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Charisma doesn't make a match "better".

 

Which is the question being asked, "Which match will be better".

 

Sid Vicious had all the charisma in the world and sticking him in the ring with Kevin Nash, also a man of charisma doesn't make a good match.

 

There's no arguement between Kobashi and HBK. HBK is 20,000 leagues below Kobashi.

 

For what they did right, "drawing the crowd in" (which, is one of Shawn's strong points that you can't deny him), they did a few things wrong that completely damaged the "epic" match it supposedly was. It was well booked and a perfect WWE formula match but It's hardly anything special.

 

Adding 5 more minutes and an contrived gimmick like the Iron-Man match especially with Shawn and Kurt's tendency to throw psychology and work-rate out of the window doesn't bode well for the match's success.

 

It'll be an entertaining match because that's what they going for but Shawn and Kurt will be set on making the "perfect" match and that's where the flaws will shine.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Wait, were you putting HBK on a list with Kenta FN Kobashi? It's not hard to get Styles and Daniels stuff. It's readily available.

 

Also, Styles isn't near the top 15 in the world but he's still ahead of Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle was only there for 2 years and he is even further away then Michaels is right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That was a different list than HBK and Angle. HBK vs Kobashi is something to discuss at a different time.

 

You must at least admit that the charisma of Angle and Michaels is top notch.

 

Hard for me to get Styles and Daniels stuff. I can't download right now.

 

 

I didn't watch the 2nd Angle vs Michaels match but I must say you're off on the assesment of the first match. You may not like it as much as others but you can't deny it did a lot of things right. They sucked the crowd in, paced the match well (built a ton of drama and anticipation, gave a contest that had an epic feeling to it and had the crowd guessing until the very end. The superkick to Angle's face while he was badmouthing Michaels was worth the price of admission alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Charisma doesn't make a match "better".

 

Which is the question being asked, "Which match will be better".

 

Sid Vicious had all the charisma in the world and sticking him in the ring with Kevin Nash, also a man of charisma doesn't make a good match.

 

There's no arguement between Kobashi and HBK. HBK is 20,000 leagues below Kobashi.

 

For what they did right, "drawing the crowd in" (which, is one of Shawn's strong points that you can't deny him), they did a few things wrong that completely damaged the "epic" match it supposedly was. It was well booked and a perfect WWE formula match but It's hardly anything special.

 

Adding 5 more minutes and an contrived gimmick like the Iron-Man match especially with Shawn and Kurt's tendency to throw psychology and work-rate out of the window doesn't bode well for the match's success.

 

It'll be an entertaining match because that's what they going for but Shawn and Kurt will be set on making the "perfect" match and that's where the flaws will shine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Kobashi is better than HBK but 20,000 leagues is an exaggeration.

 

Well, I didn't say charisma makes a better match but since we're going in that direction. Yup, you better believe charisma makes a better match. Without a shadow of a doubt. Even in the Sid vs Nash example.

 

Since I love talking about Benoit we'll start off with him as an example. Benoit's got a different type of charisma than most wrestlers. It's the same charisma Arn Anderson had and is somewhat similar to Jake Robert's charisma. Benoit's charisma is largelyy is his kick BUTT, take no prisoners intense as all get out persona. That's what sucks many a person into a Benoit match.

 

So Benoit's charisma is derived from that intensity. Now for a clear example let's take a look at the well know Benoit vs Austin match from Edmonton, Alberta. At the end of it after Austin humiliates Benoit time and time again Benoit retaliates with one of the greatest comebacks of all time. Something that had never been done before. 10 german suplexes. You know someone else could've done the exact same thing and yet the match wouldn't be as good. It wouldn't fit their charactor and we couldn't relate to it as well. This however fit Benoit's charactor to a tee. A charactor that had been with Benoit for years. The ultimate act of intensity in Benoit's greatest time of desperation -- his charactor had been tested and he responded with flying colours. His charisma had never been stronger -- how the fans truly related to him. Hence the pop and emotional satisfaction from everyone watching this match. A lot of that comes from his charisma.

 

Now let's look at Mayumi Ozaki who's undeniably one of the most charasmatic wrestlers ever. That comes from her personality traits which at times make us cheer for her and at times boo her. By manipulating our emotions she allows us to get into a match more. Cheer, boo -- whatever else. Holds mean more, suplexes mean more. An example of how her charisma makes a match better is the 11/92 interpromtional tag where she plays the mother role to her teamate Fukuoka. She makes everything seem more important by doing so thus placing a greater emphasis on everyting that happens in the bout thus making the match better.

 

Finally we take a look at Johnny Smith who in Stampede was loaded with charisma as a heel. On the mic and the ring he was the wrestler to despise. His charisma came from his heel charactor. Smith's dastardly actions and presence were so good or maybe I should say bad that it forced the viewer of said match to always get more behind the face once he managed to comeback. The moves than meant more. Someone could do the same moves in the match that Smith did but even that it still wouldn't be the same since since they wouldn't have the same charisma as a heel that Smith did. Smith's charisma makes the match better. A fine example of this is the end of the 6/23/88 match he had against Benoit which I reviewed on this forum before.

 

Than we can dip into Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kid from 4/83. This'd take forever to talk about but the charisma in that bout is a signifigant part on what makes it so terrific.

 

Wrestling is so much about charisma. If a wrestler is smart enough to do something even as simple a "whoo" and make the audience care than it's a plus. When the audience cares a headlock becomes more exciting as even as something as simple as that has more meaning. Everything means more. Charisma is your body language and what it says about you. Making the people invest their emotions in you is what makes a wrestler truly great and a match better.

 

I gather you often get emotionally invested by your perception of what great selling, transistions and moveset are. Otherwise you wouldn't care about wrestling at all. That's the charisma wrestlers hold for you. So essentially charisma is vital for you too.

 

If Angle and Michaels display better charisma in their Ironman match than that's a plus for them against Daniels and Stlyes. And of course vice versa as well. Charisma will be a factor in deciding what is the best match.

 

 

 

Angle vs Michaels may not have been special to you but look around. I gurantee you a ton of people would call that special. Special is an individual word but if we want to start arguing about wether most people thought that match was special I guarantee you if you took a poll of people who watched that bout the majority of them would call it special. Therefore, the match was special. It doesn't even matter if you or I don't like it.

 

I wouldn't say Michaels and Angle through physcology and workrate out the window at Mania. First off I see that you define physcology and workrate different than me. Physcology to me is the why you do something. Workrate is the rate of work ie how hard someone is physically working inside the ring.

 

That being said the physcology on Michaels vs Angle at Mania was a definite thumbs up overall. You may not have liked it but it drew the crowd in.

[Guest *KNK*]

I believe I simply interpreted your usage of the term "Charisma" to justify that it would naturally make the match better automatically.

 

We both appear to have different defintions of "Charisma" and that's why I believe me and you have this difference of opinion in the "value" of "Charisma".

 

Thanks for at least explaining your side of "arguement" and coherantly at that...We could use more of that here.

[World's Worst Man 0]

When people say charisma, I'd wager to say that most think of it as charisma on the mic and charisma with non-wrestling mannerisms. Taking that definition, it has nothing to do with good in-ring wrestling. Taking a broader definition, which would include the ability to play a role, sell damage, etc, then yes, it does factor into good in-ring wrestling. I'd tend to not want to use the word charisma to define those aspects though. It's easier to just say roleplaying (which is what was being discussed above), then there's no confusion.

[pochorenella 0]

Wildpegasus, that was an excellent argument you wrote there. Congrats.

 

I feel "in-ring charisma" is definitely a big part of the many intangibles that I think can either make or brake a wrestling match. Crowd participation/heat - and I hope I don't offend anybody, but I'm not talking about those well-trained smarts conditioned to chant "this is awesome" or "match of the year" every 2 minutes - is no doubt preferable, same is a compelling storyline and/or buildup, characters you care about. Possibly even the actual setting, that being if it's a high-profile match on a big PPV or not.

 

Take Rock vs Hogan from WMX-8. Without a doubt it is not regarded as a workrate or cientific masterpiece, but on that night, on that arena, with that crowd, on a WrestleMania card, it went beyond that and became something really special. Personally, I think that match in any other circumstance wouldn't be as highly regarded.

[Guest *KNK*]

When people say charisma, I'd wager to say that most think of it as charisma on the mic and charisma with non-wrestling mannerisms. Taking that definition, it has nothing to do with good in-ring wrestling. Taking a broader definition, which would include the ability to play a role, sell damage, etc, then yes, it does factor into good in-ring wrestling. I'd tend to not want to use the word charisma to define those aspects though. It's easier to just say roleplaying (which is what was being discussed above), then there's no confusion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's basically my opinion right there, to me charisma isn't defined as that ability to carry a crowd through a match.

 

But rather by the traditional by the book definition of "charisma", which is why Me and Pegasus had that disagreement there. What he said, in his own definition of "charisma" was completely spot on and I whole-heartedly agree.

 

I just don't think that's "charisma".

[WrestlingFan4Ever 0]

I do also feel that Angle-Michaels was a special match in my eyes and so was their rematch at Vengeance. Their Iron Man match may not have as many highspots as Styles-Daniels will have in their sequel but I still think it will be special and on the same level of drawing the crowd in, maybe even more so, than Styles-Daniels will.

[Ripper 0]

Christopher daniels is near HBK/Angle levels of charisma now. Yeah, I said it.

 

AJ has the RVD charisma, that makes the crowd go nuts off his ring work alone. Daniels can piss the crowd off with his mic work and in ring work yet still have them respect how good he is in the ring.

 

Workrate wise, HBK isn't near the level of the other 3 competitors out of the four, and Styles doesn't have the pacing that Angle does, but he can put on a great match when paired with a great wrestler, which he is.

 

Angles and Michaels will put on a great WWE style match, while Styles and Daniels will put on a great match. This is why I think that Styles and Daniels will walk away with this one.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Depends what you're looking for in a wrestling match I guess.

 

Daniels/AJ will have the better 'workrate' factor.

 

HBK/Angle will have the better 'entertainment' factor.

 

The difference is, Daniels and AJ are capable of doing the other better than Angle and HBK right now. They can add more drama than Angle and HBK will workrate.

 

That doesn't automatically mean Angle/HBK will be a bad match like some people make out though. HBK's never been a workrate's favourite and unfortunately, most workrate junkies can't see past that and admit he's great at what he actually does, instead of simply criticising him for what he doesn't do. There's a reason he doesn't work 'ROH style'. There's also reason why that doesn't matter.

[benoit4hor 0]

It's too bad I can't see any of their rescent work but from everything I've seen I must say Angle and Michaels are better than Daniels and Styles. That is of course going by Daniels and Styles work from 3 years ago.

 

As stated before you can watch their previous iron-man match from this year for free at tnawrestling.com

[Copper Feel 0]

All four of those wrestlers can do good stuff ( well maybe not Styles but that would be beating a dead horse) but i think they all need to be reigned in to a certain extent. I dont really expect much from either of the matches, but i think Angle .vs. Michaels will be better.

[Dangerous A 0]

Another factor in this duel of Iron Man Matches is the finish.

 

WWE has Taboo Tuesday coming up, where fans decide things by voting. Most are assuming that Angle will end up with a title match against Cena and the fans will be deciding on a stip.

 

However, Shawn Michaels is involved here and the one thing he isn't trying to have is someone going over him. I can see them booking the Iron man to a draw and then booking team giving fans the chance to vote for either Angle, HBK, or whoever ,perhaps Edge to keep up the story that he keeps getting out voted at TT for title shots and lines him up perfectly as a challenger around Survivor Series time. He could say he's using his MITB shot at the winner of TT at Survivor Series. (hey, I should be on creative

 

Daniels and AJ will probrably have a decisive winner because both men don't mind losing to the other. Angle/Michaels could become effected if they do even-steven booking of their Iron Man match and it's not out of the relm of possibility either.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I am actually expecting a Cena run in to cost Angle the match, ignoring the fact that Angle HAS to win if he's to be seen as a credible threat at Taboo Tuesday.

[Silence 0]

Personally, I think the opposite is true. Benoit vs. HHH was the worst of all of those you mention, with HHH vs Rock being the best one. I would even go as far as to say it was one of the best matches of 2000. HBK vs Hart always spurs some neverending debate, as it is panned by the IWC but highly regarded by its participants and other wrestlers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I really couldn't get into Rock/HHH, to be honest with you. The finish in particular sucked, with The Undertaker interfering as the lame American Badass character, costing The Rock the match by Tombstoning HHH, and then HHH won.

 

Aside from that, Angle vs. Lesnar is still far worse.

 

Benoit vs. HHH I thought was good mostly because of Benoit. I'll never call it GREAT, though.

[Ripper 0]

Rock/HHH was pretty cool to me because they were busting out moves they didn't usually use to get wins. Thats always cool to me.

[Guest Brian]

It was nice in that it was really creative and pretty smart, but it wasn't great or anything.

[Ripper 0]

All four of those wrestlers can do good stuff ( well maybe not Styles but that would be beating a dead horse)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some of you people really make me laugh.

[Guest Rrrsh]

If Daniels controls the pace of the match, its a toss up. If Styles does, then HBK-Angle will win.

 

Daniels maybe the best NA wrestler going, but AJ is easy the most overrated wrestler going. So, its completly a coin flip.

[Silence 0]

If Daniels controls the pace of the match, its a toss up. If Styles does, then HBK-Angle will win.

 

Daniels maybe the best NA wrestler going, but AJ is easy the most overrated wrestler going. So, its completly a coin flip.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True. Unless AJ gets in so much more offense than Daniels does in the match for some reason, though, I wouldn't expect that to happen.

[Ripper 0]

People are starting to confuse "overrated" with "not very good".

 

AJ is very good. He is just constantly called the best. But at the end of the day, he is still very good.

 

Styles can control the pace of the match and it still could be better than HBK/Angle.

[Silence 0]

People are starting to confuse "overrated" with "not very good". 

 

AJ is very good.  He is just constantly called the best.  But at the end of the day, he is still very good. 

 

Styles can control the pace of the match and it still could be better than HBK/Angle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Styles is good, but TNA and the Styles fanatics all tout him as "the best", when they've obviously been overlooking his lack of long-term selling and his tendency to try to get all of his spots in a match, which keeps him from being as good as Christopher Daniels, Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, etc.

 

I read about Styles' second Pure title match with CM Punk in ROH last year, in which Styles didn't sell any of the work that Punk had done to him earlier in the match while going on offense.

[World's Worst Man 0]

People are starting to confuse "overrated" with "not very good". 

 

AJ is very good.  He is just constantly called the best.  But at the end of the day, he is still very good. 

 

Styles can control the pace of the match and it still could be better than HBK/Angle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Styles is good, but TNA and the Styles fanatics all tout him as "the best", when they've obviously been overlooking his lack of long-term selling and his tendency to try to get all of his spots in a match, which keeps him from being as good as Christopher Daniels, Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ironically, HBK and Angle have the same flaws. But at least the anti-HBK/Angle people don't go crazy and start calling them "awful" or what have you. I guess it's natural to get into the mindset that overrated wrestlers are awful, even though they're actually good. It happens with certain matches too. Some people can stay objective, but a lot of people can't.

[Copper Feel 0]

People are starting to confuse "overrated" with "not very good". 

 

AJ is very good.  He is just constantly called the best.  But at the end of the day, he is still very good. 

 

Styles can control the pace of the match and it still could be better than HBK/Angle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The A.J .vs. Daniels match that i saw (International Showdown) certainly didnt have good pacing, infact i remember that they were throwing highspots at each other a minute in.

[Ripper 0]

You also saw AJ Stlyes as having nothing to offer in a match, so I am going to just guess this was another case of seeing only what you wanted to see.

 

And yeah, AJ has the same problem as other guys whose entire offense consist of athletic moves. If they properly sell, there goes their ENTIRE offense. I mean each and every bit of it. All gone. So he has to shrug some stuff of to get the match to work. It is also why his matches against guys like London, Low-ki, Punk, Joe, Daniels and others are great because they recongnize this and don't focus on making him have to sell a leg. They usually concentrate on the upper body because they know that is the only way the match will look as good as they do.

 

AJ did a wonderful job in the Ultimate X match against Sabin and Williams selling the hand injury, but I guess that is kinda hard to screw up.