Wwe confidential

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I anticipate the dirtsheets will be working overtime to discredit the show and the interview, because it contradicts a lot of the stuff they have published over the years, as well as previous shoots such as RF video's (it wouldn't surprise me to see Bob Ryder defend his "business associate" RF's "integrity" or something).

[Guest Human Fly]

When HHH came racing down to the ring right after the match was over that's why I wondered if he knew. The part about Brisco stepping on Vince's ankle is classic. Brisco lives his gimmick! That is vintage Stooges tomfoolery!

[Guest]

Bret was willing to drop the belt the next night on Raw (I think it was in Ottawa), either by giving up the title or by jobbing it to Shawn/Austin/whoever.

Yes but Vince didn't want Bischoff to go on Nitro the next night and announce to the world that he had signed the current WWF champion (which he did, but of course he didn't say "current WWF champion.) Vince felt that that would be a major embarrassment for his current champion to be portrayed that way in WCW.

 

And about Briscoe breaking Vince's ankle... that's nothing new. I heard about that when I began studying the subject in '98. I did laugh my ass off when Vince said that he was told that Bret was going to kick his ass and he responded with "well that's not going to happen" really arrogantly. Bret could've kicked his ass easily believe me. And of course the classic line of the month "I let Bret hit me... I owed him that much"

 

Suuuure Vince

[Guest Steve J. Rogers]

I was pretty surprised to hear that Shawn was in on it. He deserves on Oscar for his performance right after the bell rang. I was really surprised to hear him admit that he knew about it the night before. I wonder if HHH and Chyna knew. This show was really good. Trish's house is awesome.

I wonder if HHH and Chyna knew

I'd doubt it.  

 

1.  Plausible deniablity.  HHH wasn't in on the original run-in plan, though I'm sure someone would have sent him out there after Owen and Davey ran out (in fact, HHH wasn't even SCHEDULED to be on the show's card, hmmmm...)

 

2.  Granted Shawn is the type that would brag, that kind of situation you need a tight circle of a handfull of people on the need-to-know-basis.  If Owen and Davey were the only ones that were told to be part of a run in, no need to tell HHH "Hey don't bother running in, this is ending early..." And the more people start to know, the risk of a cat coming out of the bag grows

 

Steve

[Guest wolverine]

According to the Observer issue on this subject, Bret wasn't willing to lose to Shawn Michaels in Canada.  He would've done it anywhere else though, like at a house show, MSG, Raw two weeks later in North Carolina or whatever, just not in Canada.

[Guest Anglesault]

According to the Observer issue on this subject, Bret wasn't willing to lose to Shawn Michaels in Canada.  He would've done it anywhere else though, like at a house show, MSG, Raw two weeks later in North Carolina or whatever, just not in Canada.

That's nice, but one problem: That PPV was in Canada, and that's when Vince wanted him to lose it, not before the show, not after the show, AT the show.

[Guest]

I like Bret. I always have. But in the end, he was just an employee of Vince McMahon and we all know that if you don't do what your boss says... you accept the consequences. I do respect Bret though. He stood by what he believed in and he didn't sell out at WM when they offered him a spot. Whatever problems he may have, at least he's honest with himself... unlike Shawn who has changed his side of the story numerous times lying for years about whether he knew the outcome of the match or not.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

I'd be pissed too. Especially with Shawn weaseling out of returning the job and claiming he wouldn't lay down for Bret, ever. I would've ripped his head off.

[Guest art_vandelay]

That's nice, but one problem: That PPV was in Canada, and that's when Vince wanted him to lose it, not before the show, not after the show, AT the show.

You'd have a point if Bret didn't have that agreement with Vince stating he would have reasonable authority over the booking of his departure.  Agreeing to one thing and then getting fucked up the ass is not what they decided.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

lol

[Guest]

You'd have a point if Bret didn't have that agreement with Vince stating that he would have reasonable authority over his the booking of his departure.  Agreeing to one thing and getting fucked up the ass is not what they decided.

Refusing to drop the title on the grounds that he didn't like the person he was dropping the title to and for the fact that he was a Candian wrestling in Canada, is NOT reasonable. It makes no sense... it's like me saying that I won't lose the title in Florida because I'm an American.

 

Yes, he got screwed... and yes I'm sad that it happened because I've always like Bret. But Vince was very paranoid at the time. He was LOSING to WCW. He was desperate and he didn't want Bischoff coming out on Nitro the next night saying "Ladies and Gentleman, I have an announcement to make... it is with great pride that I annouce that we here at WCW have signed the current WWF champion Bret Hart!" In the end, I can't see any other way for Vince to have gotten the title off of Bret. It had to be done because both men weren't budging. It's sad... but true

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

"it's like me saying that I won't lose the title in Florida because I'm an American."

 

Isn't that , according to Meltzer, what Shawn said. About not laying down in the states? I could've sworn I read that somewhere.

[Guest]

Yeah I've read it somewhere too. I'm not sure if Shawn said it or not, it just popped in my head while I was writing so I used it.

[Guest TheDames7]

You know...if Bret said that he didn't want to job to HBK in Canada, they still had options.  I know this wouldn't be a popular choice by far, but they could have done a WM9 thing where after the run in by Bulldog & Anvil to cause a DQ, someone (maybe Shamrock, or for added effect, Owen) comes in and turns on Bret.  He issues a challenge and Bret jobs to that person right then and there and we can have HBK vs that person at the next PPV.  Seeing as how Shammy faced HBK the next PPV anyway, it would have made sense to me, especially since Shamrock had made both HBK & Bret tap in the events leading up to SS'97.

 

Dames

[Guest art_vandelay]

Refusing to drop the title on the grounds that he didn't like the person he was dropping the title to and for the fact that he was a Candian wrestling in Canada, is NOT reasonable. It makes no sense... it's like me saying that I won't lose the title in Florida because I'm an American.

 

Yes, he got screwed... and yes I'm sad that it happened because I've always like Bret. But Vince was very paranoid at the time. He was LOSING to WCW. He was desperate and he didn't want Bischoff coming out on Nitro the next night saying "Ladies and Gentleman, I have an announcement to make... it is with great pride that I annouce that we here at WCW have signed the current WWF champion Bret Hart!" In the end, I can't see any other way for Vince to have gotten the title off of Bret. It had to be done because both men weren't budging. It's sad... but true

That's a great point and I do tend to agree somewhat, but you can't overlook how they arrived at the situation.  Vince begged Bret to stay.  Bret agreed, turning down millions in the process.  In the months later, Vince fucks up the Hitman character and then later decides to back out of the contract.  All this while Bret was being the model employee, doing everything Vince asked him to, jobbing, turning heel, etc.  If Vince was good businessman, he would have never gotten himself into this situation and on top of that, would have never given the title to Bret knowing he would still hold it on the day before his contract expires!  Seeing that he made a mistake and had no other choice, he screws Bret.  Now tell me, who is at fault in this situation?  The model employee who, up until that night in November, had no requests... or the man who got them there and then took the easy way out and took no responsibility for those mistakes?

[Guest]

You've got a point... but the only reason I dissagree with it is simply because Vince was the boss and dropping the title is a time honored tradition... not to steal a quote from Vince or anything. Either way, it was a dark time for the WWF before and afterwards and Vince was a desperate man. Very paranoid... I read reports all the time about how the booking team manipulated him. Vince really got to the point where he trusted no one and was so afraid that Bret would just walk out with the WWF title, accept a few hundred grand to take the belt on Nitro and throw it in the trash can. Of course Bret was a man of his word, and I have no doubt that he wouldn't have done that... but Vince like I said was paranoid (especially considering Madusa threw the WWF womens title in the trash on Nitro)

[Guest Dangerous A]

"That's a great point and I do tend to agree somewhat, but you can't overlook how they arrived at the situation.  Vince begged Bret to stay.  Bret agreed, turning down millions in the process.  In the months later, Vince fucks up the Hitman character and then later decides to back out of the contract.  All this while Bret was being the model employee, doing everything Vince asked him to, jobbing, turning heel, etc. "

 

This is good stuff except what if Vince turning Bret had been in the works for months. What if Vince knew Bret couldn't and wouldn't fit his new "attitude" adjustment for the company and the turn fit into the big picture of getting Bret's big contract out of the way and at the same time ruining him for the competition by making him an anti-american heel, which even for the most over and charismatic superstar, wouldn've been hard to recover from. Plus with Turner running almost exclusively in the US (and a lot of the south no less) it would be hard for the US fans to forget the Mr. anti-US character.

[Guest alfdogg]

There was a link on here somewhere that had a Meltzer article where he talked to Brian Adams, who said that Shawn and Hunter were both in on it.

[Guest Beingz0wningj00]

I can't believe not one person has neglected to mention that Bret Hart had Creative Control over his character for the last 30 days.

 

 

Vince screwing Bret was a breach of contract. Bret was willing to do business... How screwy would it be to have Bret job the title to Shawn a week beforehand, then fail to win it back at Survivor's, sending him to WCW? Not so bad.

 

It's not like Vince's decision was a desperate move. Granted Bischoff could have offered Bret an assload of cash, but nothing compared to what Vince would have offered to keep it alive.

[Guest art_vandelay]

"That's a great point and I do tend to agree somewhat, but you can't overlook how they arrived at the situation.  Vince begged Bret to stay.  Bret agreed, turning down millions in the process.  In the months later, Vince fucks up the Hitman character and then later decides to back out of the contract.  All this while Bret was being the model employee, doing everything Vince asked him to, jobbing, turning heel, etc. "

 

This is good stuff except what if Vince turning Bret had been in the works for months. What if Vince knew Bret couldn't and wouldn't fit his new "attitude" adjustment for the company and the turn fit into the big picture of getting Bret's big contract out of the way and at the same time ruining him for the competition by making him an anti-american heel, which even for the most over and charismatic superstar, wouldn've been hard to recover from. Plus with Turner running almost exclusively in the US (and a lot of the south no less) it would be hard for the US fans to forget the Mr. anti-US character.

Impossible.  For that to be true, Vince McMahon would have to be the smartest man on Earth.

[Guest art_vandelay]

I can't believe not one person has neglected to mention that Bret Hart had Creative Control over his character for the last 30 days.

To quote myself:

 

You'd have a point if Bret didn't have that agreement with Vince stating he would have reasonable authority over the booking of his departure.  Agreeing to one thing and then getting fucked up the ass is not what they decided.

 

I'm confused about the breach of contract thing.  If it was, why didn't Bret ever sue Vince?

[Guest graph9]

All of you make some really good points..and it's still a dayum shame how they stabbed Bret in the back but i was always wondering about something..since this incident has happened we have heard Vince yak..i had to do what was best 4 the company..HHH, said the same thing also..he had to do what was best..etc...and many others..

 

 

Why did Vince agree to this senerio in the first place..with Bret having creative control during his last days..since he is a genius and supposedly knows everything..what works..what dosen't.. he could have simply told Bret, that it wouldn't be a good idea. Instead he made him think that he wasn't going to drop the belt, but at the last minute probably realized what a bad idea it was..Vince was scared what Bret was gonna do afterwards..he was probably thinking bret was gonna trash the title..which i don't think he was going 2 do..i don't think he is that slimy..maybe HBK...plus Vince was probably pissed he was going to the enemy..

 

And Vince has shown he isn't the most honest guy either..so he decided to make BRET a pawn to put on on great show..because Vince does have a great sense of showmanship ..while humilating him.

 

 

I don't know... maybe in the end Bret was kind of blinded in thinking Vince would be honest in honoring the contract..because i think he did say Vince was kind of a father figure to him..and he thought he knew him well...goes to show you never know someone that well. And Vince was probably wrong in agreeing in the first place..but the direct result of these events did lead to a rebirth in wrestling popularity...but now with declining ratings..it's coming full circle again..

 

 

You can tell from wrestling with shadows..that both HHH and HBK knew..watch Hunters body language when Bret's wife confronts him..very nervous..and HBK playing it cool..with a no it's wasn't me..type of thing because he knew if he didn't he was gonna get rolled on by Bret. I bet they all laughed their asses off when when the incident was over because they actually pulled it off..and HBK knew it was benfiting him the most and it did, right along with HHH.

 

 

But Bret should have got a clue...there where to many egos in this situation with no one willing to compromise to solve anything but instead you had backstabbing and bad feelings still...alot of people mention alot over the net that Bret deserved what he got 4 not just laying down in canada..But HBK constanly got away with not laying down..lost his smile and won the title back in San Antionio..i believe, and he wanted to jump ship to WCW 2.

 

 

It's so obvious all of them knew what they did was wrong or else you wouldn't have had the reactions that u had after the incident and all of this lying that went on 4 all of these years..but all of this goes to show you the wrestling is a cuthroat buisness, where you have no friends and everyone wants to be number one and they don't care who they have to step on..

[Guest Anglesault]

I can't believe not one person has neglected to mention that Bret Hart had Creative Control over his character for the last 30 days.

 

 

Vince screwing Bret was a breach of contract. Bret was willing to do business... How screwy would it be to have Bret job the title to Shawn a week beforehand, then fail to win it back at Survivor's, sending him to WCW? Not so bad.

 

It's not like Vince's decision was a desperate move. Granted Bischoff could have offered Bret an assload of cash, but nothing compared to what Vince would have offered to keep it alive.

Let me get this straight. Vince McMahon is evil for what he did to Bret, But the only time ANYONE has liked Vince Russo is when he did pretty much the SAME EXACT THING to Hulk Hogan. Hm....

[Guest caboose]

People love to hate the best.

And Vince McMahon is the best in the business at running a wrestling company.

(Not to be judged by the current product).

[Guest]

I really hate getting into this AGAIN, after 5 years.

 

However, A lot of people think Vince did the "smart" Business move in Montreal. If Vince was so "smart" why the Hell would he tell his World Champion at the time he wanted out of the contract? Vince could have waited, had Bret drop the belt to someone and then laid out the news to him he wanted out of the contract. It's his own dumbass fault there.

 

Either way, no one is totally right in this situation. Like Shawn Said last night, people are gonna debate this thing forever.

 

Also, LoL @ Brisco needing to teach Shawn how to fight just in case "Bret Tried to hurt him."

 

A Big, LOL @ Vince for making excuses for being knocked out too.

[Guest Human Fly]

Vince HAD to get the title off of Bret. Bret gave his word, but who knows how good his word would've been when Bischoff waved a fat wad of cash at him to take the belt to WCW. Vince backed himself into a corner and while I don't think he did it the best way, I understand why he did it. I also blame Bret for being a mark for himself. When it comes down to it, if they were in Calgary Bret should've jobbed to Shawn if asked. He was more worried about being a "hero" and the fact that Shawn didn't return a job (which was dirty by HBK) he was leaving, he had a big contract, he should've jobbed and been done with it. As a result Bret has become bitter and jaded. I know other things contributed to this (Owen's death, etc.) but whenever he brings Montreal up you can tell he hasn't gotten over it.

[Guest Risk]

During the Monday Night Wars, Vince was crazy.  He let Russo have creative control for God's sake!  Basically, Vince did some idiotic things, Montreal was one of them.  Nothing the WWE Yes Men say will change that.

[Guest What?!]

"Yeah, I knew. And I'm not sorry about it"

 

I miss Shawn.

 

And Trish's house is sweet. Makes me wonder what the other WWE superstars making more money than her have for a home.

[Guest Anglesault]

I can't wait to see the tour of HHH's medicine cabinet.

 

 

HHH: And this-uh is where I keep the juice-uh! ::Poses, Spits water::

[Guest cabbageboy]

There is one thing that is obvious after watching Confidential:  Michaels is one of the biggest assholes in wrestling history.  He's a total scumbag.  One can argue about whether Vince is right or wrong, but there is no debate that Michaels was sleazy.  I mean, he was in on it and then lied about it for 5 YEARS.  If he had admitted it to begin with, maybe he wouldn't seem like such a creep.  Ironically if he had he might have been even more over as a heel.  People would have been lining up to kill him.