Wwe confidential

[Guest]

Oh I respect your opinion... this topic will always be debated. That's normal. It's like the JFK assassination. You have your conspiracy theorists, and you have your lone-nut theorists. I want to make it clear once again that I am not the usual "anti Bret fan" just like I'm not the usual "anti-Vince" fan. I have sort of a contemporary view of things, just like my contemporary views on politics and religion. I like to look at both sides very closely and most of the time I settle in the middle. I don't like how Vince screwed Bret, and something inside me tells me there was a better solution. But I understand why Vince was so desperate. Either way, I actually enjoy debating this even after all these years, because it's cool seeing so many of the various opinions whether I agree with them or not.

[Guest]

What's with all this return job bullshit? Wrestling isnt an eye for an eye kind of deal, Vinnie's paying you and you do what he says - end of story.

 

Uh, no that's not really how it works, haven't you heard of the return jobs concept in wrestling. You job for me on (insert date) and I'll return the job on (insert later date).Like I said wrestling not a job wher you blindly follow the boss's whim, you have to take initiative if you don't you forever end up in the midcard, lower card or worse, a jobber, that's just how history has shown it to be. You can't beleive that Shawn bought into that theory either do you, beacause it's pretty obvious he didn't.

 

If a wrestler listened to the boss no questions asked then Austin would be the ringmaster or Chilly McFreeze, Bret would be the cowboy Bret Hart and Foley would've been Mason the Mutilator. As for jobbing that's all determined in the wrestler's contract, I'm sure if it was in Bret's contract that he had to job when he was asked he would've had to do it whether he liked it or not.

 

thebigjig:

 

Like I said I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of what was meant and not meant. maybe you're right all along and maybe I'm right I don't yhink anybody is really going to know because there are still a lot of unanswered questions the facts have become distorted after all these yaers especially on the WWF's side of the story. Anyways it's been nice debating with you and I hope we can continue doing so either more on this topic or something else.

[Guest]

Also the WWF, Vince McMahon, and Hickenbottom have changed their stories numerous times, Bret's has remained the same, gee I wonder who's lying. It was also revealed from Bret Hart's reply to Jack Brisco's Slam interview that Bret didn't have a problem jobbing in Canada, this is from Bret Hart's mouth

Please, if this is true then Bret has changed his story as well. I've heard the words come straight from his mouth about him not wanting to job for Michaels in Canada. I don't know about you, but to me that constitutes "jobbing in Canada."

[Guest]

Also the WWF, Vince McMahon, and Hickenbottom have changed their stories numerous times, Bret's has remained the same, gee I wonder who's lying. It was also revealed from Bret Hart's reply to Jack Brisco's Slam interview that Bret didn't have a problem jobbing in Canada, this is from Bret Hart's mouth

Please, if this is true then Bret has changed his story as well. I've heard the words come straight from his mouth about him not wanting to job for Michaels in Canada. I don't know about you, but to me that constitutes "jobbing in Canada."

If that's your interpretation then fine, I think if you listened to his interview on the observer last night then he clarified his position in the whole not wanting to job in Canada. Basically he said while he was working for Vince, he also had to protect his image in Canada also because WCW was trying to run more shows in Canada and Bret would be their #1 guy there to attract Canadian fans to their product and if Bret jobbed to Shawn there after all the shit Shawn pulled it would damage his character in Canada.

 

The bottom line is Bret had no problem jobbing in Canada to anybody else, read Foley's book he'll say the same thing, but after the way HBK conducted himself by telling Bret he would never job to him, I can understand why he refused to lose to Shawn in Canada. You can pull out "his boss told him to do it so he should do it" but Bret's explanation of protecting his image in Canada so his character could be effectively used in WCW in what was for them the new Canadian market made sense to me, he couldn't commit "character suicide", he had to protect his interests also.

 

I'm sure Vince and the WWF could've cared less about Bret's future after he left he company therefore Bret had to make sure they didn't damage it. My opinion is that Vince as a boss just made a lot of bad moves on his part telling the champ that he has to let him go, I mean get the belt off of him and then let him go or the reasonable clause.

 

My personal feelings (and these are mine only) is that Vince fucked up and handled the entire situation immaturely to cover his fuck-ups. That's my opinion on the whole thing.

[Guest]

Jobbing once isnt career suicide, bro. And yes, he should've jobbed since vince told him too. Watch 'Wrestling With Shadows,' and besides Bret's fucked up mind probably doesnt remember past breakfast this mourning.

[Guest dreamer420]

I lay the blame exactly where I have been since this whole things started 5 years ago.  With Vince, HBK, and Earl Hebner.  Those three douchebags are the reasons for the demise of Bret's career and Confidential just confirmed what I have been suspecting for years.

[Guest Anglesault]

I lay the blame exactly where I have been since this whole things started 5 years ago.  With Vince, HBK, and Earl Hebner.  Those three douchebags are the reasons for the demise of Bret's career and Confidential just confirmed what I have been suspecting for years.

And Bret is a perfectly innocent angel, right? The man should have listened the boss, and DONE HIS JOB, regardless of how he felt about HBK. He refused, and, well, shit happens.

[Guest Human Fly]

The territory system has been over for a long time now. Maybe then Bret's argument would've been legit. There is no way that losing a match (and they could've had HHH come down and pedigree him on a steel chair or something like that) in your home country will hurt your draw everywhere else in the country. Especially if you go to another company.

[Guest Anglesault]

Now, I don't know Canada, so i don't know how far Calgary is from Montreal. Is it like New York to New Jersy or is it like New York to Chicago?

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

New York to Denver, roughly (and that's a very rough guess). Calgary is just east of the Rocky Mountains, while Montreal is on the East coast of Canada, if you go roughly dead south of Montreal you will reach the New York-Washington-Baltimore area of the USA.

[Guest]

I lay the blame exactly where I have been since this whole things started 5 years ago.  With Vince, HBK, and Earl Hebner.  Those three douchebags are the reasons for the demise of Bret's career and Confidential just confirmed what I have been suspecting for years.

And Bret is a perfectly innocent angel, right? The man should have listened the boss, and DONE HIS JOB, regardless of how he felt about HBK. He refused, and, well, shit happens.

How many times did HBK refuse to do the job? Not just to Bret, To EVERYBODY!

[Guest Anglesault]

Okay, so Bret had abosolutely NO "hometown territory" claim.

[Guest Anglesault]

I lay the blame exactly where I have been since this whole things started 5 years ago.  With Vince, HBK, and Earl Hebner.  Those three douchebags are the reasons for the demise of Bret's career and Confidential just confirmed what I have been suspecting for years.

And Bret is a perfectly innocent angel, right? The man should have listened the boss, and DONE HIS JOB, regardless of how he felt about HBK. He refused, and, well, shit happens.

How many times did HBK refuse to do the job? Not just to Bret, To EVERYBODY!

How many times was HBK on his way out of the company

[Guest]

Jobbing once isnt career suicide, bro. And yes, he should've jobbed since vince told him too. Watch 'Wrestling With Shadows,' and besides Bret's fucked up mind probably doesnt remember past breakfast this mourning.

Bret and Shawn are huge rivals, they have been for many years, the fans recognize that. When people think of The Rock's biggest rival signs will point to HHH, maybe Austin and when peole think of a huge rival for Bret, it's HBK, especially in that time period where both were vying for the #1 heel spot in the company. These two have gotten very personal with each other on air, the heat is big and people know it. The last match is in Canada and a big reason WCW wanted to sign Bret was because of his drwing potential in Canada which is still a big WWF market, WCW is new to Canada. Shawn beating Bret IMO after all this makes Bret lok bad, as if he lost the feud. Now if he was retiring after this last match and it was some sort of "passing the torch" deal then I understand but it's not.

 

You got to understand the WWF could care less what happens to Hart after he leaves and signs with WCW, most likely they'd love to hurt Hart's image so that any momentum he has going in to WCW doesn't make an impact therefore it is Hart's responsibility to protect himself even while he drops the belt. Maybe you don't see it that way but I think most wrestlers who want to successful care about who they job to and when they job, that why wrestlers will job in one town and get a return for it in another town, that's why if you're in a wrestlers hometown the general rule is not to beat the guy in his hometown with your finisher if that wrestler is going to job he gets beat with a fluke rollup. It hurts their image and character otherwise.

 

But if you can't understand that, you're entitled to your opinion.

 

And Bret is a perfectly innocent angel, right? The man should have listened the boss, and DONE HIS JOB, regardless of how he felt about HBK. He refused, and, well, shit happens.

 

Maybe Bret should've conveniantly "lost his smile" or told Shawn in his face that he would never job to him, no but of course HBK's a perfect angel right, after all he was courageous for doing what he did in Montreal....(rolls eyes)

[Guest]

Okay, so Bret had abosolutely NO "hometown territory" claim.

hey Sault, read my latest thread "Proof that Bret is losing it... or lying"

 

I have all you need to know right there

[Guest alfdogg]

This is how I remember it:

 

Shawn refused to job to ANYONE in the US.

 

Bret refused to job to Shawn in Canada, I know that much.  I'm not sure if it was just Shawn, or everyone.  And the guy offered to job the thing TO THE BROOKLYN FREAKIN' BRAWLER after the show, rather than Shawn.

 

And I just don't see Shawn making that offer.

[Guest]

I lay the blame exactly where I have been since this whole things started 5 years ago.  With Vince, HBK, and Earl Hebner.  Those three douchebags are the reasons for the demise of Bret's career and Confidential just confirmed what I have been suspecting for years.

And Bret is a perfectly innocent angel, right? The man should have listened the boss, and DONE HIS JOB, regardless of how he felt about HBK. He refused, and, well, shit happens.

How many times did HBK refuse to do the job? Not just to Bret, To EVERYBODY!

How many times was HBK on his way out of the company

How many times did Shawn try to get fired so he could go to WcW?

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

What's even funnier about Bret not wanting to job in Montreal is that in Western Canada, and particularly his real hometown Calgary, Quebec (the province of which Montreal is a member) is highly disliked. Now, I'm not saying Bret shares that particular view, but it is a very popular opinion out here (I consider it redneck bigotry myself).

[Guest alfdogg]

How many times did Shawn try to get fired so he could go to WcW?

I thought that was just in storyline?  Wow.  Shawn tries intentionally to get fired and doesn't, but Michael Hayes apparently has no right to be upset about getting his mullet cut off.

[Guest]

On an added note to the guys who say Bret should've have listened to his boss no matter what, how many times did the boss lie to Bret, I read in Meltzer's report that after the screwjob when Vince was in Bret's locker room that Bret rattled off a list of lies Vince had told Bret while everybody sort of stared in shock especially since Vince had no comeback.

 

So it's okay that the boss lies to Bret but Bret should be an innocent angel and perform the boss's every whim whether or not it hurts Bret's character. Yes Bret really shouldn't care about himself at all, because as long as Vince is pleased that's all that matters.

[Guest]

Of course Vince lied to Bret. I think in the end, Bret has more dignity and honor because he has always been the one who has for the MOST part stuck by his side of the story and even turned down a potentially lucrative offer from the WWE on the matter of pinciples. At least he has some.

 

BUT, doing business on the way out has always been a time honored tradition, and Vince had his legitimate reasons for not wanting Bret to walk out of Canada with the title. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Guest Anglesault]

On an added note to the guys who say Bret should've have listened to his boss no matter what, how many times did the boss lie to Bret, I read in Meltzer's report that after the screwjob when Vince was in Bret's locker room that Bret rattled off a list of lies Vince had told Bret while everybody sort of stared in shock especially since Vince had no comeback.

 

So it's okay that the boss lies to Bret but Bret should be an innocent angel and perform the boss's every whim whether or not it hurts Bret's character. Yes Bret really shouldn't care about himself at all, because as long as Vince is pleased that's all that matters.

Bret WAS LEAVING THE COMPANY. Everyone seems to forget that he could NOT leave the WWF as the WWF champion

[Guest]

Let's not forget as well, that Bret wanted to come out the next night on RAW and freakin' FORFEIT the title. In my opinion, wanting to leave an undefeated champion is kind of selfish if you ask me

[Guest]

Let's not forget as well, that Bret wanted to come out the next night on RAW and freakin' FORFEIT the title. In my opinion, wanting to leave an undefeated champion is kind of selfish if you ask me

 

Are you sure that he never said that he was willing to drop the title on Raw by jobbing it? I recall him saying that and the other scenario was the one you mentioned.

 

Here's a question, why didn't Vince line up another person for Bret to drop the title to, why did it have to be Shawn, Vince should've known there would be problems there. Speculation has it that Vince was a factor in fanning the flames between Bret and Shawn so don't you think he should've had the common sense to get Bret to drop the belt to someone else?

[Guest Human Fly]

"Are you sure that he never said that he was willing to drop the title on Raw by jobbing it? "

 

He wanted to come out on tv and forfeit the title and give a farewell speech.

[Guest]

No, he says it plain and simple that he wanted to come out and forfeit the title and "give his goodbye speech and leave with his head up." I know he didn't demand that but he did suggest it, and most likely really wanted to leave that way. I watched Wrestling with Shadows again today to brush up my knowledge of what happened, and it's there plain as day

[Guest]

No, he says it plain and simple that he wanted to come out and forfeit the title and "give his goodbye speech and leave with his head up." I know he didn't demand that but he did suggest it, and most likely really wanted to leave that way. I watched Wrestling with Shadows again today to brush up my knowledge of what happened, and it's there plain as day

He suggested it?

 

Well then it's a suggestion right, but if wasn't just a suggestion and that was the only way that Bret wanted to do it then I agree with you that Bret was being selfish, if it's only a suggestion then I disagree that Bret was being selfish.

[Guest]

Anyway, I'm sure I sound really confusing because I just noticed that in every other post I praise Bret, and then I seem to bash him... sometimes in the same post. Either way, my entire opinion of the thing is that, all parties were somewhat wrong due to a combination of Ego and Pride, which like I said earlier, are dangerous combinations when mixed. I believe that in the end, Bret looks better simply because he has always stood by his principels and like he said in the documentary "never sold out." He didn't sell out. And he definitley didn't sell out earlier this year when he got that WrestleMania offer.

 

I do think he was wrong for not willingly dropping the title in Canada, and I understand Vince's reasonings for doing what he did, because like I said, desperate times call for desperate measures. I also think that there could've been a better way to do it, but the screw job was obviously a last minute decision and wasn't planned a long time ahead.

 

The reason Vince chose Shawn ahead of everyone else is because, like even the documentary states, Shawn was Vince's new star for the early Attitude campaign.

 

Actually, if anyone is interested in the true fine print of this entire controvery, I recommend getting the Observer back issue that they released afterwards. It's quite interesting. You would be quite surprised to learn that Vince even offered Bret several different scenarios to KEEP him in the WWF including a plan that would end up having Bret job the title to Austin at WrestleMania. Bret turned all of these scenarios down sadly and the rest is history.

 

This is probably the most tragic wrestling story of all time. It reads like Shakespeare. It's so amazing watching Wrestling with Shadows now and seeing Bret in the beginning of the documentary one year earlier as the top star... the hero. Then right before your eyes you see the attitude transformation... but the eeriest part of all is in the end, Bret is talking about the "life of a Professional wrestler" about how so many of them end up a shell of their former selves... with broken down bodies and nothing to show for their sacrifices.

 

Shakespeare couldn't have written it any better

[Guest snowfan]

I can't believe not one person has neglected to mention that Bret Hart had Creative Control over his character for the last 30 days.

 

 

Vince screwing Bret was a breach of contract. Bret was willing to do business... How screwy would it be to have Bret job the title to Shawn a week beforehand, then fail to win it back at Survivor's, sending him to WCW? Not so bad.

 

It's not like Vince's decision was a desperate move. Granted Bischoff could have offered Bret an assload of cash, but nothing compared to what Vince would have offered to keep it alive.

Yep.  Notice how no one ever mentions that Bret based that request on the clause Ric Flair had in the 80s in the NWA?  Why is he a demon for having an option that Hogan had in WCW?

 

Vince screwed Bret...(and got a shiner in the process)

[Guest]

The reason Vince chose Shawn ahead of everyone else is because, like even the documentary states, Shawn was Vince's new star for the early Attitude campaign.

 

They could've used somebody to be a transitional champ I mean Vince had no problem using Bret as a transitional champ for Michaels, and wasn't Michaels Vince's star for the New Generation campaign I thought they were building Austin to be the star of the attitude campaign.

 

Oh well

 

As far as Bret turning down all scenarios even refusing to job to Austin, I guess I'll have to order that issue of the Observer because that sounds nothing like Bret and I'd have to read it to believe it.