Vern Gagne Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang couldn't even crack the Twins rotation.
The Czech Republic Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Thank goodness Dusty Baker isn't on the list. What an oversight. Dusty Baker would be a great choice for the Dodgers. I'd love to see him with the Dodgers, he could do great things for that team. What a shame that Frank McCourt doesn't want to get Dusty Baker.
Brett Favre Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang couldn't even crack the Twins rotation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes he would; lets not kid ourselves.
USC Wuz Robbed! Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang couldn't even crack the Twins rotation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes he would; lets not kid ourselves. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes we all know the pitching prowess of Scott Baker and Francisco Liriano...
Guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Santana, Radke, Lohse, Silva, Mays; provided they all come back.
USC Wuz Robbed! Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Lohse is crap. Mays is slated as a reliever/bullpen guy. Their slated starters are: Santana, Radke, Silva, Baker, Liriano and Lohse.
Guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 I don't really know why we are talking about this, because Torii Hunter would not be traded for Wang.
Vern Gagne Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang couldn't even crack the Twins rotation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes he would; lets not kid ourselves. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes we all know the pitching prowess of Scott Baker and Francisco Liriano... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll guarantee right know both will better than Wang by the end of the 2006 season if not sooner. Wang is nothing but smoke and mirrors.
USC Wuz Robbed! Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 While that may be true, it doesnt change the fact Twins would definitely pencil Wang in as a starter. Like Kingofthe909 says though, I dont really see it happening anyways.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 If I were Brian Cashman and I could trade Chien-Ming Wang for Torii Hunter, the only question is whether I could contain my laughter long enough to accept the deal. The Twins have Radke, Santana and Silva locked in. Francisco Liriano made 14 AAA starts, went 9-2, struck out 112 and walked 24 in 91 innings. He's in the rotation. Baker made 22 starts at AAA, struck out 107, and walked 26 in 134.7 innings. He'll likely make the rotation as well. I would take any of those five over Wang. What the Yankees really should do is take a look at Jacque Jones, a free agent. Jones is good enough to play center field well, and only played right because of Torii Hunter. He could come cheap, play the defense the Yankees need, and pop 20-25 home runs as a bonus. His low OBP wouldn't be such a problem in a lineup that does not usually struggle to score runs.
the max Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Al, if Jones doesn't sign with the Yanks, do you see them making a run at Juan Pierre? He had a down year by his standards, but he's always seemed like a pretty good leadoff guy. His arm isn't good in center, but he's damn fast getting to the ball.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Al, if Jones doesn't sign with the Yanks, do you see them making a run at Juan Pierre? He had a down year by his standards, but he's always seemed like a pretty good leadoff guy. His arm isn't good in center, but he's damn fast getting to the ball. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Absolutely. The Yankees need to concentrate on defense and getting someone to flag down the ball, and Pierre can provide that. His stats this season were almost exactly the same as last season, except for the hits column. As a bonus, Pierre hasn't missed a game since 2002.
Vern Gagne Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 I would take any of those five over Wang. Refresh my memory did we have have guess where the free agents are headed contest last off season? Any rumored trades or possibilities of where free agents could end up.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Does Jones play CF? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He played 82 games there in 1999 and 63 games in 2000. Recently, he played 10 games there this season.
USC Wuz Robbed! Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 I don't agree Al. Minnesota will probably look at Wang, "Oh wait this is the guy who went to the postseason and did well..." and probably will give him a shot at the starting rotation before Liriano or Baker.
Brett Favre Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 If I were Brian Cashman and I could trade Chien-Ming Wang for Torii Hunter, the only question is whether I could contain my laughter long enough to accept the deal. The Twins have Radke, Santana and Silva locked in. Francisco Liriano made 14 AAA starts, went 9-2, struck out 112 and walked 24 in 91 innings. He's in the rotation. Baker made 22 starts at AAA, struck out 107, and walked 26 in 134.7 innings. He'll likely make the rotation as well. I would take any of those five over Wang.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't agree with the K/BB ratio to decide whether a pitcher is a good one or not. Wang gets outs period. He had a game where he had 10 assists or so. Just because it's not a K, doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It's not like Wang's ERA is over 4.50, it's in the low 4s, and he pitched very well in the ALDS. It's not like he walks batters either. So yes he's better than either of them, considering he's already pitched well in the major leagues.
The Czech Republic Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang couldn't even crack the Twins rotation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He might be able to poke in there. His K rate is low, but if he can get it up, I think he'd be more than just solid. At any rate, he deserves some kind of job.
Brett Favre Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Carlos Silva's K rate is just as bad. It doesn't make sense.
Vern Gagne Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang couldn't even crack the Twins rotation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He might be able to poke in there. His K rate is low, but if he can get it up, I think he'd be more than just solid. At any rate, he deserves some kind of job. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He has a job with the Yankees. My point was the least of the Twins concerns is starting pitching. So if they trade Hunter to the Yankees it would be for offensive players. Cano would likely be included. One problem with Cano is he's not a very patient hitter, and the Twins need to add players with plate discipline.
mike546 Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 I think Wang defintley has a chance to improve his K rate. He just needs to improve his slider.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 If I were Brian Cashman and I could trade Chien-Ming Wang for Torii Hunter, the only question is whether I could contain my laughter long enough to accept the deal. The Twins have Radke, Santana and Silva locked in. Francisco Liriano made 14 AAA starts, went 9-2, struck out 112 and walked 24 in 91 innings. He's in the rotation. Baker made 22 starts at AAA, struck out 107, and walked 26 in 134.7 innings. He'll likely make the rotation as well. I would take any of those five over Wang.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't agree with the K/BB ratio to decide whether a pitcher is a good one or not. Wang gets outs period. He had a game where he had 10 assists or so. Just because it's not a K, doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It's not like Wang's ERA is over 4.50, it's in the low 4s, and he pitched very well in the ALDS. It's not like he walks batters either. So yes he's better than either of them, considering he's already pitched well in the major leagues. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Carlos Silva's K rate is just as bad. It doesn't make sense. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Silva's a different beast because his walk rate is historically low. In fact, Silva's walk rate in 2005 was the BEST single-season figure in baseball's modern era. The only guys who rate above Silva did it when it took more than four balls to walk a batter. Silva walked a third of the batters Wang did, and did it in 72 less innings. As for strikeout rate, it is absolutely true that pitchers with higher strikeout rates are more likely to succeed in the majors. There is such a thing as "hit luck," that pitchers allow fewer hits than we might expect based on their peripherals. These pitchers almost ALWAYS fall back to earth given time. The ones that do succeed have fantastic control so their hits come with few men on base. For example, David Wells, Jon Lieber, Brad Radke. Wang's walk rate is decent, but if he qualified he'd rank outside the top 25. Control alone won't cut it at that point, and before long batters will figure out how to adjust their swings to get better contact. And if Wang can't adjust and fool them, he's toast.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang couldn't even crack the Twins rotation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He might be able to poke in there. His K rate is low, but if he can get it up, I think he'd be more than just solid. At any rate, he deserves some kind of job. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He has a job with the Yankees. My point was the least of the Twins concerns is starting pitching. So if they trade Hunter to the Yankees it would be for offensive players. Cano would likely be included. One problem with Cano is he's not a very patient hitter, and the Twins need to add players with plate discipline. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know you want Bellhorn.
Brett Favre Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang had 38 assists, in 18 games. Now, I haven't checked records, but neither Wells nor Lieber, nor Silva come close to this. Basically, Wang is a pitcher that not only forces contact, but forces contact right back at him. That has to count for something, and unlike Lieber, Silva, and Wells yet again, he doesn't allow more hits per inning. Silva allowed a shitload of hits these past 2 years, even if he has some walk record.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 Wang had 38 assists, in 18 games. Now, I haven't checked records, but neither Wells nor Lieber, nor Silva come close to this. Basically, Wang is a pitcher that not only forces contact, but forces contact right back at him. That has to count for something, and unlike Lieber, Silva, and Wells yet again, he doesn't allow more hits per inning. Silva allowed a shitload of hits these past 2 years, even if he has some walk record. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First off, Silva did allow more hits. He gets away with it because that is practically the only way to reach base on him. Hits are not the sole weapon an offense possesses. Second, Silva's one of the top ten groundball pitchers in the American League. Wang's groundball ratio is very, very high. If he qualified, it would be the second highest in the league, behind Jake Westbrook. The question is whether this is sustainable, and whether it was any predictive value. I don't have groundball ratios for Wang in the minors, but his home run rates have always been low. I will admit that yes, he's a better pitcher than his peripheral statistics indicate. I'm just not sure if he rates above Baker or Liriano. Certainly not above Liriano, who is just overwhelming, and is likely to turn heads next year. And he's essentially a lesser man's Carlos Silva, who has a track record. Wang's a nice pitcher admittedly. I just wouldn't go overboard on him.
Brett Favre Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 I'm not saying he's a future Cy Young Award winner, but to say he has no chance at the Twins' rotation is idiotic.
mike546 Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 I just hate it when everyone says he and Chacon are going to start sucking eventually. Maybe, there just freaking good.
EVIL~! alkeiper Posted October 22, 2005 Report Posted October 22, 2005 I'm not saying he's a future Cy Young Award winner, but to say he has no chance at the Twins' rotation is idiotic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Radke, Santana and Silva are set. Liriano was so out of this world good in AAA that it has to be seen to be believed. That makes it Scott Baker vs. Wang, and Baker is not a slouch in the prospect department at all. I just hate it when everyone says he and Chacon are going to start sucking eventually. Maybe, there just freaking good. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because there's very strong evidence that the peripheral statistics are more important, and if you read into it and study it, I think you will find it is true. Now Chacon I'm not going to criticize, because he was a Colorado pitcher and I said it was a great move at the time. You just have to understand the value of the strikeout rate. If the pitcher has a good strikeout rate, the batter is so fooled that he can not make contact. If the strikeout rate is poor, the batter is making contact, and thus has an idea where the pitch is going. If he knows where that pitch is going, he is going to adjust.
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