This week in the NBA

[the pinjockey 0]

And who are you? Curry's trainer? How do you know he's not committed to conditioning? Give me the centers that average more than 6.5 rebounds, per 26 minutes a game.

 

I think it is damning in and of itself that he is only averaging 26 mpg. That is less than Shaq, whose conditioning has been an acknowledged issue all season.

 

Centers that average at least as many minutes as Curry and their Rebounds per 48 minutes

Marcus Camby, DEN 18.4

Ben Wallace, DET 16.3

S. Dalembert, PHI 16.0

Tim Duncan, SAS 15.6

S. O'Neal, MIA 15.5

J. Magloire, MIL 15.1

Emeka Okafor, CHA 14.3

Chris Kaman, LAC 14.0

Kurt Thomas, PHO 13.9

Yao Ming, HOU 13.4

J. O'Neal, IND 13.2

Andrew Bogut, MIL 12.8

Mehmet Okur, UTH 12.7

Zaza Pachulia, ATL 12.7

Z. Ilgauskas, CLE 12.1

Chris Mihm, LAL 12.0

Eddy Curry 11.5

 

Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, Steven Hunter was traded to NOK for 2nd round picks in 06 and 07.

 

Looking around on Sixers boards, I see them ripping Billy King for this one. Did it turn out to be a dud signing? Sure. But when he signed, everyone thought he would be fine as an athletic big to spell Sammy for 15-20 minutes a game. No one could have seen him falling behind Michael Bradley and Shavlik Randolph (Randolph is doing what Hunter should have been). To be able to get something for the terrible signing, IMO is the sign of being a decent GM. Not that King is a great GM, but ripping him over this move is using way too much hindsight.

[Precious Roy 0]

Something I've gotta ask, how much money does the MSG management have? They're paying a huge payroll and luxury tax every year.

 

Something in the range of "buttload" or possibly "mega-assload"

 

It's MSG/Cablevision, a billion dollar telecommunications empire, and it really sucks having your favorite team run by a giant corporation. At least with someone like Steinbrenner his giant corporation is a result of the Yankees, the Yankees are the centerpiece, the Knicks are more of an investment for Cablevision, a dalliance. Part of the reason Houston got that contract, and wasn't cut with the amnesty thing, is because he was Dolan's favorite player and they were golf buddies.

 

There's also been a lot of shit where Cablevision has screwed over their customers, most notibly when they refused to carry the YES network over a petty dispute with Steinbrenner, leaving millions of people without coverage of the Yankees for an entire season.

 

Also, it was James Dolan way of doing business that's most likely responsible for (the hopefully temporary) end of the WWE/MSG relationship, which is a great tragedy to the tradition of both entitys.

 

So really, I have no sympathy for the Dolans, and I could care less about how much money they have to spend on the Knicks. Crying about how they have to pay Rose $17 million next season rather than be less over the cap, when they'll STILL be insanely over the cap, makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. $17 million is a drop in the bucket for them.

 

Name a dominant center who didn't dominate from his first 2 years in the league.

 

BEN WALLACE and Robert Parish off the top of my head. I wouldn't call Vlade Divac dominant necessarily, not from a purely physical sense, but it took him several years to fully blossom as a player. Ditto for Brad Miller, Rik Smits and Yao Ming, none of whom are "domiant" but are/were all-star caliber centers.

 

But again, guys coming straight from High School is a recent trend, and Eddy Curry isn't Moses Malone. Greg's analysis is flawed. Historically most centers came into the league with at least 3 years of college experience. Jermaine O'Neal is a C/PF, and he did jack shit his first 4 years. Andrew Bynum has the potential to be dominant, will he do much in his first couple years? Probably not. Not going through college before hitting the pro-game is a major alteration on the development of a player, and in Curry's case was probably detrimental to the speed of his development, definitely detrimental to his maturity. But, he's still 23, his game has lots of time to deveop. I was crazy immature when I was 23, and I didn't have millions of dollars to spend on entertaining myself.

[naiwf 0]

Ben Wallace

 

Year Ag Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS

+---------------+----+-----+----+----+---+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+

1997 22 WSB NBA 34 197 3.2 9.3 0.0 0.0 1.2 4.1 5.1 6.7 11.8 0.4 1.6 2.2 3.7 5.5 7.7

1998 23 WAS NBA 67 1124 3.0 5.8 0.0 0.0 1.2 3.5 4.0 7.5 11.5 0.6 2.2 2.6 1.0 4.1 7.3

1999 24 WAS NBA 46 1231 3.7 6.5 0.0 0.0 1.5 4.3 4.5 8.0 12.5 0.6 1.6 2.9 1.2 3.6 9.0

2000 25 ORL NBA 81 1951 3.4 6.8 0.0 0.0 1.2 2.4 4.3 9.0 13.3 1.4 1.5 2.7 1.4 3.4 8.0

2001 26 DET NBA 80 2760 3.1 6.4 0.0 0.1 1.2 3.4 4.4 10.9 15.2 1.8 1.6 2.7 1.7 2.8 7.4

2002 27 DET NBA 80 2921 3.5 6.6 0.0 0.0 1.4 3.2 4.4 9.9 14.2 1.6 1.9 3.8 1.0 2.4 8.3

2003 28 DET NBA 73 2872 2.9 6.1 0.0 0.1 1.2 2.6 4.1 11.6 15.7 1.7 1.4 3.2 1.2 2.5 7.0

2004 29 DET NBA 81 3050 4.1 9.8 0.0 0.1 1.9 3.8 4.2 8.9 13.2 1.8 1.9 3.2 1.6 2.1 10.1

2005 30 DET NBA 74 2671 4.4 9.7 0.0 0.1 1.9 4.6 4.4 9.1 13.5 1.8 1.6 2.6 1.2 2.4 10.8

 

Wallace's numbers increased as he got more playing time when he went to Detroit, but his numbers per 40 are about the same as they were in the beginning. He just needed more PT to become a bigger factor.

 

Robert Parish

 

Year Ag Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS

+---------------+----+-----+----+----+---+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+

1977 23 GSW NBA 77 1384 8.3 16.6 3.5 4.9 5.8 9.9 15.7 2.1 1.6 2.7 6.5 20.1

1978 24 GSW NBA 82 1969 8.7 18.5 3.4 5.4 4.3 9.5 13.8 1.9 1.6 2.5 4.1 5.9 20.8

1979 25 GSW NBA 76 2411 9.2 18.4 3.3 4.7 4.4 10.8 15.2 1.9 1.7 3.6 3.9 5.0 21.6

1980 26 GSW NBA 72 2119 9.6 19.0 0.0 0.0 3.8 5.4 4.7 10.1 14.8 2.3 1.1 2.2 4.2 4.7 23.1

1981 27 BOS NBA 82 2298 11.1 20.3 0.0 0.0 4.9 6.9 4.3 9.3 13.5 2.5 1.4 3.7 3.3 5.4 27.0

1982 28 BOS NBA 80 2534 10.6 19.5 0.0 0.0 4.0 5.6 4.5 9.1 13.7 2.2 1.1 3.0 3.5 4.2 25.1

1983 29 BOS NBA 78 2459 10.1 18.3 0.0 0.0 4.4 6.3 4.2 9.2 13.5 2.3 1.3 2.4 3.0 3.6 24.5

1984 30 BOS NBA 80 2867 8.7 15.9 0.0 0.0 3.8 5.1 3.4 8.6 12.0 1.9 0.8 1.6 2.6 3.7 21.2

1985 31 BOS NBA 79 2850 7.7 14.3 0.0 0.0 4.1 5.5 3.7 8.1 11.8 1.8 0.8 1.4 2.6 3.1 19.6

1986 32 BOS NBA 81 2567 8.3 15.1 0.0 0.0 3.8 5.2 3.8 8.2 12.0 2.3 1.0 1.8 2.9 3.4 20.3

1987 33 BOS NBA 80 2995 7.9 14.1 0.0 0.0 3.0 4.1 3.4 8.0 11.4 2.3 0.9 1.9 2.6 3.6 18.7

1988 34 BOS NBA 74 2312 7.6 13.0 0.0 0.0 3.1 4.2 3.0 7.9 10.9 2.0 1.0 1.5 2.7 3.4 18.4

1989 35 BOS NBA 80 2840 8.4 14.7 0.0 0.0 4.1 5.8 4.8 9.2 14.0 2.5 1.1 1.6 2.8 2.9 20.9

1990 36 BOS NBA 79 2396 8.4 14.5 0.0 0.0 3.9 5.2 4.3 9.0 13.3 1.7 0.6 1.2 2.8 3.2 20.8

1991 37 BOS NBA 81 2441 7.9 13.3 0.0 0.0 3.9 5.1 4.4 9.6 14.0 1.1 1.1 1.7 2.5 3.2 19.8

1992 38 BOS NBA 79 2285 8.2 15.3 0.0 0.0 3.1 4.1 3.8 8.5 12.3 1.2 1.2 1.7 2.3 3.0 19.5

1993 39 BOS NBA 79 2146 7.8 14.5 0.0 0.0 3.0 4.4 4.6 9.2 13.8 1.1 1.1 1.9 2.2 3.7 18.5

1994 40 BOS NBA 74 1987 7.2 14.6 0.0 0.0 3.1 4.2 2.8 8.1 10.9 1.7 0.8 1.9 2.2 3.8 17.4

1995 41 CHH NBA 81 1352 4.7 11.0 0.0 0.0 2.1 3.0 2.8 7.6 10.4 1.3 0.8 1.1 2.0 3.9 11.5

1996 42 CHH NBA 74 1086 4.4 8.9 0.0 0.0 1.8 2.6 3.3 7.9 11.2 1.1 0.8 2.0 1.8 2.9 10.7

1997 43 CHI NBA 43 406 6.9 14.1 0.0 0.0 2.1 3.1 4.1 4.6 8.8 2.2 0.6 1.9 2.8 3.9 15.9

 

Same thing for the Chief.

 

While The Chief was a good center he was never dominant as he never scored 20+ PPG in any season and only had more than 11 RPG twice in his career. He has the worst PPG average (14.5) of anyone who scored 20,000 in their career. Ben Wallace is a dominant player on the defensive side of the ball. His offense is still mostly tip ins and dunks and that's not gonna change as he's 30 or 31 by now. Your list has guys that have definite growth over time, but they were never the best center or most feared player on their team in the league. If Eddy Curry doesn't became a franchise player the Knicks won't even hit 40 wins until next decade.Again, a dominant center dominates from the get go.

[Brett Favre 0]

Eddy has improved in points each year he's been in the league. He's also the first true center to come out of High School. Just like Ben, when Eddy gets sufficient time, he'll put up the numbers. The reason he plays 26 minutes is usually because of foul trouble. Recently though, he's played 29.9 minutes a game (In the month of January). His numbers were 16 points, 6.8 rebounds, and .542% from the field. He leads the entire league in points per shot. That means he needs to get the ball more, because he truly can be dominating. You give us all these centers, but they all went to school like 4 years or so. Curry is different, so his results should be different than what Anthony has said.

[Precious Roy 0]

The question was name a dominant center who didn't dominate in his first two years, and that's the question I answered. You didn't ask about per 48 averages, which while it can be a usefull stat is oftentimes misleading.

 

Why didn't Ben Wallace play much his first couple years? He was still developing and was very raw on the offensive end. Basically he was a liability, he turned the ball over, he didn't know how to make himself usefull in an offensive scheme. Also, his personal fouls per 48 (here's where the stat is best applied to Wallace) have decreased pretty much every year, his first couple years he couldn't stay on the court because he was so overly agressive. These may sound like simple things, but they're the signs of a player who came into the league with weaknesses and improved with experience.

 

Robert Parish was most certainly a dominant center in his peak years with Boston, and there was close to a decade where he could be considered among the best centers in the game. He never averaged over 20 because he played alongside two great scorers, he had the skills to score more. The reason his career average is only 14.9 is because he played for 20 years and had averages of 4.8, 3.9 and 3.7 his last 3 seasons, when he was clearly over the hill.

 

To be fair to Eddy Curry, I don't expect him to ever be a dominant defensive player. He can be a good one, but I don't have the expectation of him ever changing the game like a Wallace or Mourning. Where he has the chance to be a dominant player is on offense, where everything points to him being a nearly unstopable force. He has great moves in the post, great touch on his shots, tenacious around the rim, can hit his free throws, he's got every skill you need to be a dominant low post scorer. The guy led the league in FG% when he was 21 years old! All I ask is that he become dominant on one end of the court. Why does the guy have to be Wilt Chamberlain for the Knicks to break 40 games in the next decade? That's just silly.

[Ripper 0]

I disagree with one thing here. Per 48 minutes is never ever a useful stat.

[alfdogg 0]

Pacers 93, Pistons 85.

 

I can't fucking believe it.

[naiwf 0]

Why does the guy have to be Wilt Chamberlain for the Knicks to break 40 games in the next decade? That's just silly.

 

The Knicks haven't won more than 40 games in the last 4 years. This year's team looks like it'll be lucky to hit 32. The 'B' team isn't going to improve us by 8 games a year. Marbury's not gonna do it. Crawford isn't either. So the Knicks only hope to jump up about 10-12 wins is Curry turning into a stud. Right now he's a bigger version of Kurt Thomas with a few more points and a few less rebounds.

[Precious Roy 0]

Except he's absolutely nothing like Kurt Thomas

 

you need to stop basing all your analysis on #'s

[naiwf 0]

What should I base it on especially when they're not WINNING?

[Damaramu 0]

Hornets 106 Lakers 90

Believe that.

[Guest Princess Leena]

Dama, stop hating all SoCal teams.

 

And be friends with Cena's Writer. He's like the Knicks' version of you.

[Guest]

Hornets 106 Lakers 90

Believe that.

Chris Mihm and Lamar Odom didn't play. Believe that. Guess what the problem was with those 2 out of the lineup? Rebounding. That's the only reason the Hornets scored so much. I've given up on Kwame Brown.

[naiwf 0]

Give Kwame time to develop. Just kidding.

[Damaramu 0]

It's the OKC crowd. They energize the Hornets to victory. That'd be awesome if they made the playoffs.

[Guest]

Did the crowd energize Lamar Odom and Chris Mihm to not play? That's the only reason the Lakers didn't win, considering who goes in the starting lineup after them. I don't ever want to see Brian Cook get so much PT ever again.

 

Regarding Kwame, he's had his chance. Fuck him.

[Damaramu 0]

No but you're trying to downplay the Hornets and the crowd by making excuses.

If you can use that as an excuse then I can definitely use Jason White's injuries as an excuse for why OU lost the Sugar Bowl in 2003.

[Guest]

No. 2 of your top 4 scorers out of the lineup and your 2 best rebounders out equates to a loss for almost any team in the league.

 

You should just be glad that your shit squad in Norman even got there in the first place, they couldn't do anything better with a better team the next year, a year that they didn't belong there again. USC beat Auburn the year before, so it wouldn't have bothered me to see the Trojans play them, I was just glad to see them face OU and their shit QB. I'll leave the college football talk at that. I'll even remove it altogether if this really derails the thread. You'll get 1 more response regarding football from me, that's probably it.

[Damaramu 0]

Just saying. That if you're going to use injuries as the excuse rather than giving the other team credit then I'll do the same thing. Go ahead and find an injury to blame the Lakers loss to the Pistons two years ago. Because we know they can do no wrong and they never lose fairly.

[Guest]

There's no way I'll claim that the Lakers could have beaten the Pistons, and that they should have beaten the Spurs, even if all the players were healthy. I'm not a homer. Realistically, you can look for excuses, there's a difference between ones that are valid and invalid. As another example, if you want to use Jason White's knees as the reason that they lost to SC last year, go right ahead. Doesn't make it right.

 

Plus, you are a Celtic fan, so we shouldn't even be discussing this.

[Damaramu 0]

There's no way I'll claim that the Lakers could have beaten the Pistons, and that they should have beaten the Spurs, even if all the players were healthy. I'm not a homer. Realistically, you can look for excuses, there's a difference between ones that are valid and invalid. As another example, if you want to use Jason White's knees as the reason that they lost to SC last year, go right ahead. Doesn't make it right.

 

Plus, you are a Celtic fan, so we shouldn't even be discussing this.

 

No they just got plain beat last year. But the knees and the broken hand could be an excuse for 2003.

And yeah I'm a Celtics fan but I love my state more and so I want the Hornets to do well and stay so that my state will do better.

[Guest]

I think football's different. You do have 5 other players that can step up and make a play, or the defense can play better. I don't think that White's injuries caused the game to be a defensive game.

 

In basketball, guys are set to fill certain roles. When someone gets hurt, the bench players typically step up and fill the role of the guy that's gone. I hate Lamar Odom, but I realize that this team is totally different without him, as evidenced in Charlotte last night and in Oklahoma tonight. There is nobody else in the lineup that can do the things he does, he's the facilitator at this point. If Bynum got more playing time, he could probably fill Mihm's role, but he's too inexperienced for me to expect him to do that.

 

When the Lakers played Detroit, they could have had all of their guys healthy and still have lost by 10-15 points every game. That's how good I think that team was.

 

I just now noticed why Buss wouldn't trade Odom. I fully understand his viewpoint now.

[Precious Roy 0]

How can anyone hate Lamar Odom?!?

[Guest]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm going to go on a long rant which some of you may find interesting, and others won't find interesting.

 

I hated Lamar Odom for 1 main reason.

 

He doesn't try to assert himself in the offense enough.

 

These are the things I now understand. I've come to learn that not being so aggressive is a good thing for him. One thing that I've really noticed in these 2 games is that he is a HELL of a lot better option than anyone else that the Lakers could possibly bring off their bench, and I now believe he's doing the best that he possibly can in the offense. I've realized that when he's not in the lineup, the game turns into a huge clusterfuck. Without a ball handler and rebounder like Odom, I think that the other guys try to do way too much. In the Charlotte game, guys were running around, being way too aggressive with the ball in their hands, and trying to make big defensive plays. All of this stuff led to a hell of a lot of turnovers. I don't like that. Luke Walton suddenly gets this feeling that he's invincible and tries to carve apart the defense. That's fucking stupid. Without he and Chris Mihm in the lineup, there is no possible way that the triangle can work. None.

 

In the triangle, I've come to the realization that you have to have 3 capable ball handlers, and when you don't, it doesn't work. For an example, look at the Lakers-Pistons series in which they had Payton, Bryant, Shaq, Malone and George. There's only 2 capable ball handlers there, and if you take Malone out, you only have 2 guys that can realistically put the rock on the floor. I don't know if that's Jackson's fault that he's unable to adjust, that really isn't a position that I want to take. My point, is that without Odom in the lineup, the Lakers don't have that 3rd guy who is able to handle the ball.

 

In all my years as a fan of the respective teams that I am a fan of, I've never turned the TV off or changed the channel when they were getting blewout, or when they were in a down season. Friday was probably as close as I've came to ever doing so. The game against the Bobcats was probably the single worst basketball game I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen a good amount. It was a disgusting display of basketball, and you could see it in both coaches faces. I've seen the Kings get beat 10-1 by Buffalo, the Lakers suck a total cock in every game at the end of last season, Jacksonville get blown apart by New England this year, the Dodgers suck last season God knows how many times and SC get killed multiple times in the years before Carroll came to LA.

 

I will not turn my back on my team, no matter how poor they play, and I've seen my share of it. I've seen Kobe's 3 airballs against Utah his rookie year, and multiple failures in the conference finals. My point is that it's so gratifying to see your team finally succeed no matter how many times they fail. So to all you Leafs, Flyers, 76ers, Knicks, Mets, Cubs, Jazz, NY Giants, Eagles, Jets, Cavs, Bucks, Pacers, Blackhawks, Sabres, Phillies, Browns, Bengals, Sonics and Clippers fans; don't ever give up on your team. The feeling when they eventually win it all will be great. Don't ever give up Knicks fans, even if it takes 10 years for them to get back to the playoffs.

 

Rant over. I think I need to go to sleep.

 

I didn't forget about you Bills and Bruins fans either, I had you guys in the back of my mind.

[Precious Roy 0]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm going to go on a long rant which some of you may find interesting, and others won't find interesting.

 

I hated Lamar Odom for 1 main reason.

 

He doesn't try to assert himself in the offense enough.

 

These are the things I now understand. I've come to learn that not being so aggressive is a good thing for him. One thing that I've really noticed in these 2 games is that he is a HELL of a lot better option than anyone else that the Lakers could possibly bring off their bench, and I now believe he's doing the best that he possibly can in the offense. I've realized that when he's not in the lineup, the game turns into a huge clusterfuck. Without a ball handler and rebounder like Odom, I think that the other guys try to do way too much. In the Charlotte game, guys were running around, being way too aggressive with the ball in their hands, and trying to make big defensive plays. All of this stuff led to a hell of a lot of turnovers. I don't like that. Luke Walton suddenly gets this feeling that he's invincible and tries to carve apart the defense. That's fucking stupid. Without he and Chris Mihm in the lineup, there is no possible way that the triangle can work. None.

 

In the triangle, I've come to the realization that you have to have 3 capable ball handlers, and when you don't, it doesn't work. For an example, look at the Lakers-Pistons series in which they had Payton, Bryant, Shaq, Malone and George. There's only 2 capable ball handlers there, and if you take Malone out, you only have 2 guys that can realistically put the rock on the floor. I don't know if that's Jackson's fault that he's unable to adjust, that really isn't a position that I want to take. My point, is that without Odom in the lineup, the Lakers don't have that 3rd guy who is able to handle the ball.

 

Well, no offense, but I've been trying to tell you (or maybe it was Vitamin X, if it wasn't you my bad), but I've been trying to say this to the Laker fans round here since they traded for him, and all throughout last season.

 

The guy is a really talented, multi-dimensional player. He's hella valuable on the court. He can a perfect compliment to Kobe if Kobe will fully accept him in that role, and really, if he didn't have Kobe on the court he would be more assertive, and was last year when Kobe was out of the lineup, which was no surprise, when Caron Butler played his best.

 

I just have a ton of respect for the way Odom plays the game, he works hard at both ends, he's unselfish, he plays the right way. You shouldn't hate on the guy because he isn't some super agressive eye of the tiger killer on offense, that's just not his game, he's more comfortable playing his part, making the guys around him better, and taking advantage of the opportunitys that a proper offensive flow allows him.

 

I think a lot of the reason why Laker fans get down on him is because he was traded for Shaq. Hate the trade or not, that isn't Odom's fault.

[Guest]

It wasn't me.

 

I think the fact that Odom doesn't really try to assert himself helps more than it would if he did try. The problem with the Lakers right now is that too many role players are trying to take the game over. I just see the frustration in Jackson's and Kobe's faces after every bad play and turnover.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Wasn't me either, although I had been getting more and more frustrated with Odom on the offensive end of the court, but yeah these last couple games without having him in the lineup have been frustrating. Same thing happened last year too, having Kobe in the lineup and no Odom, and you can see the impact Odom has on the game, especially when it comes to rebounding. The problem with the Lakers since last year is that they don't dominate the boards as much as they should (which I think was a big reason for trading Butler for Kwame Brown, if not THE reason), and well, I called Chris Mihm improving into at least a solid player this year. Who do they have besides Bynum that could crash the boards? Definitely not Brian Cook, whose specialty seems to be more as a shooter inside of a big post presence.

 

I'm okay with Smush Parker at the point though, I just really think they need to upgrade at the PF position. But hey, maybe Kwame will eventually come around...

[Rendclaw 0]

I personally think that Michael Jordan FUBAR'ed Kwame's confidence big time. He was showing some things even though he was VERY green and raw, then Jordan getting in his face all of the time took that away. He might still develop into a decent player, but nowhere near what it could have been.

[Precious Roy 0]

Looking back at that draft, Kwame Brown has to be one of the biggest busts of all time, and Jordan must feel like a real ass for wasting that pick on him. Could have had Pau Gasol, Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson, Shane Battier, Richard Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Gerald Wallace, Sam Dalembert, Tony Parker or Gilbert Arenas. The two other highly touted HSers, Curry and Chandler, are both far superior players to Brown at this point.

 

Hell, Jordan was like the only one who had Kwame that high on the board, I remember a lot of people saying he should go with the safe pick of Battier since he was planning on coming back to play.

[Guest]

I think Kwame is the biggest bust in a long time unless he can develop an offensive game under Phil. I seriously doubt that will happen.