Don't believe the hype

[World's Worst Man 0]

In general, I wouldn't say AJ's matches are contrived anymore. He certainly uses a couple of contrived spots but it's not like contrived spots are necessarily the only way for a match to look contrived. If an otherwise fine spot isn't setup well, the whole sequence comes off as very contrived. For example, a wrestler walking up to his unhurt opponent, grabbing him and suplexing him is completely laughable. Even if the suplex itself isn't "fake looking", that someone would let his opponent walk right up and suplex him is certainly ridiculous.

[Bruce Blank 0]

one last observation and then I'm done with this thread forever

 

Man don't ever DARE say that you just don't "get" one of your favorites huh? cause boy do you go on and on like a broken record - an annoying one by like Hanson or something.

 

I still don't see "Mega talent" in Samoa Joe and your rantings haven't really changed that, just made me remember to skip your posts in the future.

 

So your argument is: I don't like Joe....because I don't?

No what I said was that MisawaGQ's condecending browbeating of anything and anyone that doesn't subscribe to his view of the world hasn't helped me change my views on Samoa Joe one bit.

 

I just don't see him as a "Mega talent" that he's been hailed as by so many people. I like him alright but I don't get all moist over him or his matches. It's such a shame that it's apparently such a black and white picture with Samoa Joe: Either he's NUMBAH ONE!! and if you don't say that then apparantly you say he's nothing but shit and should job nightly to Billy Gunn.

 

I can be "Not pro-Joe" without being "Anti-Joe" but that doesn't seem to be something that registers with Joe fans.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

That's because you are a complete mark for Angle. You are willing to fall for the belief that that spank-off was dramatic. You know why it was for you? They did the right spots but there was no story. Yet, you incorporated the spots to indicate that there was some resemblence to an actual story.

 

I knew you would try to make the argument that WM21 was better then JvP II or III. No one ever said anything about JvP I, which no claims it to be a perfect match.

 

Joe/Danielson, is accessible. You'll probably enjoy but you'll rather keep with the pretense that Angle > Joe. You'll try to make an arguement that Benoit/Angle RR03 was better, even if it wasn't.

 

Angle doesn't have those great matches that keeps you on the edge of your seat. That's your fan-dom coming into play and that's his purpose but to use his ability to mainipulate contrived spots into convincing you that he is better the Samoa Joe, who completely shuts Angle down in every department inside that ring.

 

Angle is a great performer but he isn't at Joe's level as a worker.

 

Fucking seriously, how has no one called you on this bullshit?

 

"You're willing to fall for the belief that that spank-off was dramatic"

 

Willing to fall for the belief? First, what does that even mean? That you are willing to suspend your disbelief? The whole point of wrestling is making the audience believe. Lambasting someone for a willingness to believe is absolutely fucking ridiculous. I'm not an Angle mark, I think his character for the most part sucks and I think he uses his amateur wrestling pretty poorly, he does have his qualities though and those qualities have me enjoying a fair amount of his matches, despite certain things detracting from them. I am in no way an Angle-mark, so how can I enjoy Angles matches? I used to write off Angles matches in similar ways that you do, but that's counter-productive. Angles matches work. They do. Accept that. They may not work for you, but they work for the vast majority of those watching. Why do they work?

 

"They did the rights spots but there was no story"

 

The right spots, which pop the crowd. Which is what wrestling is about. There is nothing in the book of professional wrestling that says there has to be a story. When the first person who said "hey, lets fake this stuff" had professional wrestling in mind, it wasn't to tell a story. Wrestling has always been about making money off those in the audience. There are no Oscars or critical acclaim like there is for film and theatre, there are no pulitzers as there are for literature, and critical success is not tied into the financial wellbeing of a company or wrestlers or anything like that. The goal of the wrestlers in a match isn't to tell a story. A story is something that can exist, it's nice to have it, but it is not necessary for a match to work and effect the crowd. Generally speaking, a very basic story will make the fans happy, and you can find a basic story in every match, even Michaels/Angle. Fans will try to pseudo-intellectualize a very simple thing like professional wrestling and try to elevate it as an artistic piece, but that's really just perverting it. There's nothing wrong with it, but don't fool yourself into thinking this is what wrestling IS, and certainly, don't chastise others for looking at it in a way it's supposed to be looked at.

 

"Angle doesn't have those great matches that keeps you on the edge of your seat"

 

So all those matches where I see the audience going nuts for near falls and the like don't actually exist. What Angle matches have you been watching?

 

I haven't seen anything from Joe that is as brilliant as Benoit/Angle is, though the TNA 3 way would have come pretty close had they not ended it later than they should have. That match is a masterpiece and should be studied by every single fucking wrestler who wants to know how to work an audience. Is Joe worse than Angle? At some things, yes. At other things, no. Joe is a very good wrestler, and while I have certain issues with him (his non-stiff matches are suckish, where Angle does shitty Amateur wrestling moves, Joe does shitty MMA moves), I won't deny that several of his matches made me go crazygonuts, just as some of Angles matches have done. I won't disagree with anyone who says Joe is better than Angle or that Angle is better than Joe, because a strong case could be made for both, I will disagree with those who say there is a great divide between the two when it comes to being workers, cause I don't think there is.

[King Cucaracha 0]

See, that's how you present an impartial viewpoint (Rudo, that is). And he's pretty much dead right.

[pochorenella 0]

The last thing I want to do is add more fuel to this "Joe is god/no he's not" discussion, but anyway:

 

I like Samoa Joe, maybe not as much as possibly the majority here (I do not think he's the second coming or anything like that), but I've watched that Kobashi vs Joe match from ROH several times and honestly I cannot find that guranteed ***** match. Personally, the best stuff I've seen from Joe are his match with CM Punk (the second one) and his match vs Styles and Daniels (the first one). Then again, maybe I haven't seen enough Samoa Joe, but how much is actually enough? I've seen several of his ROH matches, including tag teams, four-ways, and his 3 famed matches with Punk, and I've seen virtually all of his TNA PPV stuff. Is that enough to make an educated opinion or do I need to also watch his UPW stuff? Anyhow, I find myself enjoying the majority of his work, but not as much as I enjoy and mark for the work of others, like Kurt Angle, Benoit, etc.

 

This thread was really going downhill but the last few posts I think put it back on track. Hopefully it stays that way and people can accept that you can like some wrestlers more than others.

[Guest Arnold_OldSchool]

Giant Baba

 

I get him sort of, as in he was the "freak" of the Japan 70's scene, but what I've seen of him has been poor. I've seen matches vs mascaras, Hansen and others and he looks very unnatural in the ring.

 

I liken this I suppose to someone who doesn't get Andre. I grew up watching Andre so I buy him being in the spot he was in, but I can see "attitude" era fans crapping on him

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

The last thing I want to do is add more fuel to this "Joe is god/no he's not" discussion, but anyway:

 

I like Samoa Joe, maybe not as much as possibly the majority here (I do not think he's the second coming or anything like that), but I've watched that Kobashi vs Joe match from ROH several times and honestly I cannot find that guranteed ***** match. Personally, the best stuff I've seen from Joe are his match with CM Punk (the second one) and his match vs Styles and Daniels (the first one). Then again, maybe I haven't seen enough Samoa Joe, but how much is actually enough? I've seen several of his ROH matches, including tag teams, four-ways, and his 3 famed matches with Punk, and I've seen virtually all of his TNA PPV stuff. Is that enough to make an educated opinion or do I need to also watch his UPW stuff? Anyhow, I find myself enjoying the majority of his work, but not as much as I enjoy and mark for the work of others, like Kurt Angle, Benoit, etc.

 

This thread was really going downhill but the last few posts I think put it back on track. Hopefully it stays that way and people can accept that you can like some wrestlers more than others.

Based on what I saw on the Road to Glory DVD, Samoa Joe sucked in UPW.

[World's Worst Man 0]

The last thing I want to do is add more fuel to this "Joe is god/no he's not" discussion, but anyway:

 

I like Samoa Joe, maybe not as much as possibly the majority here (I do not think he's the second coming or anything like that), but I've watched that Kobashi vs Joe match from ROH several times and honestly I cannot find that guranteed ***** match. Personally, the best stuff I've seen from Joe are his match with CM Punk (the second one) and his match vs Styles and Daniels (the first one). Then again, maybe I haven't seen enough Samoa Joe, but how much is actually enough? I've seen several of his ROH matches, including tag teams, four-ways, and his 3 famed matches with Punk, and I've seen virtually all of his TNA PPV stuff. Is that enough to make an educated opinion or do I need to also watch his UPW stuff? Anyhow, I find myself enjoying the majority of his work, but not as much as I enjoy and mark for the work of others, like Kurt Angle, Benoit, etc.

 

This thread was really going downhill but the last few posts I think put it back on track. Hopefully it stays that way and people can accept that you can like some wrestlers more than others.

 

There's really no need to be sarcastic, as there was never any mention of someone needing to see an overwhelming quantity of a guy's work to judge him. Surely you would concede that there's a rather large difference between someone who runs their mouth off after having seen 10-15 matches of a given wrestler (and none of his very best stuff), compared to someone who's seen many more matches, including his very best stuff. It's really just about having a relevant sample to judge a guy by (quantity + quality) rather than simply having to see 95-100% of the guy's work.

 

Based on what I saw on the Road to Glory DVD, Samoa Joe sucked in UPW.

 

I would argue Joe wasn't all that good until 2004 or so. In 2002 he was kind of just there, in 2003 he was getting better and in 2004 he really came into his own.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

One guy I can think of, and not sure if he's been mentioned already is "Scrap Iron" Adam Pearce. I used to see him in the local indys here in Wisconsin (NAWF, etc). He got hyped a lot online by various "experts". I understand he's in ROH now...he has a great look, but is _extremely_ vanilla in the ring, at least from every match I've seen him in. Decent mic worker though, IIRC.

[benoit4hor 0]

I was hoping someone would tell me why I'm supposed to like Chris Sabin, but I guess nobody has any reasons.

 

So how the hell did "Hail Sabin" come about?

[Guest Coffey]

Someone made a sign after coming to the realization that "Sabin" sounded like "Satan." So, instead of "Hail Satan" he made a "Hail Sabin" sign.

 

I can't remember where I read that but I remember reading it.

[Guest Rrrsh]

AJ Styles is whats wrong with Indy wrestling today. He is the equivalent to HHH (for obvious different reasons)

Could you please clarify that a tad?

 

He is a fucking Gymnist with no sense of storytelling, phycology or long term selling. His matches look like choreographed dance, not wrestling. And since he is a major player in the Indys, he heavy influences peopel who follow him. The biggest problem with the Indyz are lack of storytelling and too much no-selling. And that because of AJ Styles influence

 

Whats wrong with the WWE is that the Mian Event is stale and boring. And that cuz of HHH's ego.

Maybe I'm just an ignorant fool, but unless you mean by storytelling something like "overcoming the odds" I have trouble seeing a story in a match. Most of his moves, though, do work on the head, which is part of what he wants to set up the Styles Clash. He isn't a technician, so he keeps a fast pace most of the time time on offense, which is good as far as I'm concerned. He wrestles a cruiserweight style, for God's sake. I've never noticed his spots looking contrived. He just has trademark moves like everyone, the Pele and the like. He strikes me as just as fluid and spontaneous as a Bret Hart or a Ric Flair in the ring. But maybe it's just me. If I could ask a question, do you like the high flying style at all, and if you do, give me an example or two of who you like. Maybe I can see your point then.

 

The Styles Clash has impact on the chest, #1. I always notice his spots looking contrived, so we differ there. Ditto with your bret Hart and Ric Flair comment. Rey mysterio matches look like they could happen in a sense is that it doesnt look like before hand they planned where guys stand and such. Try and watch a Stryles match and never say to yourself, "wow, great luck for AJ the guy just happened to be there" or "man, its like he knew he woudl end up there". I never watch a match of his and think its legitamite.

I'd say face and chest on the Clash, but fair enough. I guess we just see it differantly, so I'm willing to agree to diagree. But I have to ask you about Bret there. You think his spots look contrived? I always see him as this consumate ring technician who goes in knowing what he wants to do to a guy, so he hits his 5 moves of doom to take them out, but maybe I'm seeing it wrong

 

What I menat was that Bret anf Fliar have great flow to their matches with it looking legit. Styles has far too many "waiting till teh next spot happnes" awkward moments.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Oh right, I forgot. Nigel.

[Si82 0]

Oh right, I forgot. Nigel.

You don't get the love for Mr. McGuinness?

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Nope. I like his heel work a bit, but he's just so boring.

[Si82 0]

Nope. I like his heel work a bit, but he's just so boring.

I can see your point with his "european" style that he wrestles but I find it a refreshing change. I mean, he's had some great bouts with Colt Cabana for instance.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

I like the European style. At least when it comes from Colt Cabana or Doug Williams. The two times I've seen Nigel live (Nigel vs. Colt from MM and Nigel vs. Lethal from Joe vs. Kobashi) I was just bored to tears from his work.

 

And using the "Best there is, Best there was, Best there ever will be" line is just a cheesy way to get heat.

[Guest burth179]

I like both wrestlers immensely, probably Angle a little more than Joe, but that aside there is one thing you should all take into consdieration..

 

I"m sure Joe wrestles injured all the time also, but...

 

Angle works his ass off with a neck that is barely being held together. He has that condition that Paul Orndornff has where one of his arms will be immensely weaker than the other eventually... They've told him many times to quit wrestling and he still does it..

 

Not only does he do it, the guy STILL puts on the best matches in the world (in my opinion, yes, it's very debatable). I don't know how you can knock Angle's work rate, that may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.

 

Take this into consideration before knocking his work rate (which is ridiculous to think that anyway). He won an Olympic medal with a broken neck, which he's broken many times over. There's no rhyme or reason why he still wrestles given his condition, but he still puts on damn good matches every time. The man may not be able to walk correctly in 10 years and it is because he's entertaining fans like us...

 

I would think that if you like Joe, you would like Angle. It just seems that way (maybe because I like both, I don't know).

 

I don't know why people are knocking one or the other, because let's face it, both are pretty much the best that is going right now...

[World's Worst Man 0]

Angle's injuries are quite irrelevant, as his shortcomings really have nothing to do with his physical shape. Poor selling, laughable spot setup and lack of logical build stems from him either not knowing or not wanting to work that way, and those kinds of things are the flaws people bring up. Going by the truest sense of the word, his "workrate" (number of spots used) has never been the question, although going just by "workrate" (which I don't really care much about, since random indy spot monkies technically have better "workrate" than many of the best workers ever), there's probably about 100 guys better.

[LucharesuFan619 0]

Ooh, another one.

 

Derek Frazier. Watchable, but I see no real standout qualities whatsoever in him.

 

I disagree with you but I guess I can see where you're coming from. He is very bland, but I love do watch him create really innovative spots.

 

Sexxy Eddy is another guy I can't stand. The gimmick doesn't do anything for me nor does his wrestling style.

 

I for one have found BJ Whitmer's run with Jacobs thoroughly enjoyable. I used to hate Whitmer but now he's somewhat enjoyable to me.

 

And Tim Cooke, please - if you read this - respond to some of my points about Roderick Strong. I consider him decent, but I don't see him as the superstar so many others see him as.

[Tim Cooke 0]

"1. He cuts some of the worst promos on the entire indy circuit."

 

I haven't seen many compelling Indy promos at all. Outside of Joe and Danielson, it is usually the guys like Cornette, etc. who come from a different era that cut the promos. If this was the WWE, I could see this being valid.

 

"2. Forget having good or bad facial expressions. His facial expressions NEVER change."

 

Misawa, Taue, Baba. They must not be good either. I will agree *shocking* that during the Gen Next heel run, he wrestled as a face instead of a heel.

 

"3. His work is horribly contrived (the cartwheel out of the Boston Crab is the beginning of a long list)..."

 

Where to begin? I can write out a long response but then again, this is coming from someone who likes Derek Frazier, enjoys XPW, and likes crappy indy flyers.

 

"4. He has NO charisma."

 

Ask numerous people and they will say Bryan Danielson doesn't either, even though he is one of the more charismatic guys in wrestling right now. He doesn't glow like the Rock when he comes out but during the match, he brings plenty to his role in the match.

 

"He is the only guy I can think of to have a bad match with Azriel this year."

 

Azriel had some stinkers this year. His early 2005 tag work with Dixie opposite Deranged, Izzy, Cloudy, Cheech was good but almost every other singles or tag match I have seen him in has been fast forward material.

 

Tim

[LucharesuFan619 0]

"1. He cuts some of the worst promos on the entire indy circuit."

 

I haven't seen many compelling Indy promos at all. Outside of Joe and Danielson, it is usually the guys like Cornette, etc. who come from a different era that cut the promos.

 

That's a bullshit statement. Kingston, Colt,

 

I can write out a long response but then again, this is coming from someone who likes Derek Frazier, enjoys XPW, and likes crappy indy flyers.

 

This is a bullshit statement as well. We all have our "non-mainstream" wrestlers we enjoy watching. For some people its Mark Henry, others its Tiger Jeet Singh, and others its XPW.

 

"He is the only guy I can think of to have a bad match with Azriel this year."

 

He was also in what is - in my opinion - the best 4 Corner Survival Match of all of 2005 in ROH (DBD3).

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Anyone want to explain Chris Hero to me? I've seen plenty of his stuff in PWG and some CZW but so far I don't get it. I've read that he cuts a good promo but to me he is competant but nothing special.

[theintensifier 0]

Chris Hero is vastly overrated. He looks sloppy in the ring, is boring, looks like shit, etc.

[Silence 0]

Chris Hero is vastly overrated. He looks sloppy in the ring, is boring, looks like shit, etc.

 

I saw a clip of him constantly twisting Mike Quackenbush's arm from TPI '04 (I think) and I became bored of Hero immediately.

[theintensifier 0]

Yeah, he does nothing that makes me even remotely interested. I lied. There's one thing. When he gets his ass kicked by Necro Butcher.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Chris Hero is vastly overrated. He looks sloppy in the ring, is boring, looks like shit, etc.

 

I saw a clip of him constantly twisting Mike Quackenbush's arm from TPI '04 (I think) and I became bored of Hero immediately.

 

If you're basing your opinion of him on one clip of a glorified exhibition match, I suggest you watch some other matches of his. Hero/Quack from TPI wasn't really a good wrestling match so much as it was a live training session and it was build-up to the Hero/Quackenbush feud the next week.

 

Hero's a great heel and so long as you like the European/Luchapean style, a perfectly good wrestler. Most people who complain about him don't like the European style or haven't seen him as a heel.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Also, I like Roderick just fine, but he's certainly not ROH Champion material. He was pretty much 'the 4th guy' in GenNext and he works best as a tag wrestler, specifically Jack Evans. I don't see any superstar potential in him, but I've no problem with how they're using him right now.

[theintensifier 0]

Being RoH World Champion doesn't mean being a susperstar that's known around the world, it means being a proficent wrestler that can entertain, and get a reaction, and that can carry the title.

[Youth N Asia 0]

Chris Hero is vastly overrated. He looks sloppy in the ring, is boring, looks like shit, etc.

 

I saw a clip of him constantly twisting Mike Quackenbush's arm from TPI '04 (I think) and I became bored of Hero immediately.

 

 

I was there for that match. these dicksmacks in front of me were going on about how it was the greatest thing ever. OK, I love good technical wrestling and whatnot. But painfully slow chain wrestling just bores me