"Traditonal Fans"

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

I don't get something. Bear with me but if 2/3 or more of the audience, doesn't that make you heel? I mean Cena is doing heelish things like winning cleanly and upseting the audience. A lot of you are looking for that defining moment where he tells the audience to go to hell. Cena is getiing booed, therefore he is a heel.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I don't buy that different cities are more biased for or against face wrestlers, etc. I think it has more to do with how often WWE runs in that particular city. I think the reason the Long Island crowds suck is because WWE used to run there like, once a month at least. They get bored, so they sit on their hands or turn against certain wrestlers.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Someone explain why Cena was getting female cheers followed by male boos.

 

Michaels' most over period was when he came back in 2002, where he was very much not Sexyboy Shawn Michaels. There is a reason why he was for most of his singles WWE career a heel, and it's not because he was a glorified cruiserweight. HBK disproves nothing in regards to Cena.

[cabbageboy 0]

Invader3k, I do think some wrestlers get better reactions in certain parts of the country. As noted, Cena has been getting trashed lately in the northeast and places like Chicago. However if you note most of the Edge feud seemed to take place in the south, the Carolinas in particular. Cena was still over with those crowds, though it's tough to say how much of that was him leeching off of Flair's heat.

 

Rob Van Dam for instance is popular most everywhere, but I do notice he gets a much larger reception in old ECW towns that are familiar with his past work. He got a big reaction at WM since Chicago was a town where ECW had its largest crowd (as Tazz noted), and I also believe he beat Christian for the IC title in a ladder match there.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I guess I can agree with that. Clearly, certain wrestlers are going to be more appealing in different parts of the US than others. And of course, Canadian wrestlers are always way over north of the border, for obvious reasons. I don't think that means certain cities are more "pro-heel" than others, as has been stated elsewhere.

 

I also think it's evident that WWE really hasn't kept up with the times as much as they say they have. They claim that the fans decide who gets cheered and booed, and the whole "shades of grey" thing, but sometimes they still book feuds and angles like this is 1985.

[Promoter 0]

Great thread and it has a lot of valid points. I'll jump in with another version of what is happening here. This John Cena stuff may actually be deliberate now imo, but then again it is wwe creative we are talking about here. I think after Cena won the strap again at The Royal Rumble the wwe changed gears in how they are presenting him. It is now in synergy with the crowd. His promo last night and the night after the Royal Rumble proves this. He has acknowledged the "haters", yet he is "riding" for his chain gang. As been said, Vince is having his cake and eating it too and I remember someone in the forums admitting that Cena should continue doing exactly what he is doing a few weeks back because the man has the most heat in all of the wwe.

 

At WrestleMania, JR started calling Cena an unorthodox champion and not a traditional wrestling champion. Cena is not doing all the wigger stuff as before and the wwe is now admitting he is not a great wrestler holding the strap like past champions. The wwe has re-molded Cena's character somewhat and it is working exactly how they are expecting it at the moment with the traditional fans booing the hell out of the guy and younger kids and females squealing for him. This is just a very odd situation.

 

I'm also wondering why they didn't turn him heel or even do the Austin/Bret scenario from WM 13. Then I thought about Austin's heel turn tanking with turning Austin fans away and maybe the wwe is thinking that will happen with the newer fans and female fans.

 

I'm just thinking about WM XX and the promo about "Where it all begins...again". At 21 the wwe had Cena and Batista win the titles to start off the 3rd generation of the event. If we look at the big picutre and history I think this might be happening here.

 

In 1984, Hulk Hogan was massively popular and Vince jumped right on it by having him win the title quickly upon his return to the fed. It worked in a tremondous angle, but it may have truly worked because of kayfabe and fans not being that "smart" as today. Hogan was not a "traditional" champion compared to someone like Ric Flair in the NWA or even Bob Backlund, but he was loved by the younger generation and females for his morality.

 

Then in 1990, a year after breaking kayfabe the wwe wanted to start another big boom era with Ultimate Warrior dethroning Hulk Hogan. Ulitmate Warrior did actually rival Hogan in terms of popularity in 1989 and 1990. However, Warrior won the strap and got boos in some arenas across the country. Instead of sticking with Ultimate Warrior and allowing him to prove he should be champion he lost the title to an older Sgt. Slaughter and Hogan regained the belt. Warrior's chances of being the heir apparent were over before it really began. It's a little more complex, but that's the bottom line with that one. Suppose the wwe had stuck with Warrior and got the same kind of vibe today with Cena? Warrior would probably not be seen as a flash in the pan wwe champion. Who knows? The thing some forget is that Hogan was given time to grow into the top babyface champion. He did not come out gangbusters at the gate in 1984 as revisionist history prcolaims, but it did usher in a new era.

 

The wwe just hit rock bottom after giving up on Warrior and brought in Sid. We know what happened there. The wwf tried the "new generation" campaign with Diesel, but had him copy Hogan in terms of the babyface character and even "dieseled" up from time to time and he got boos as well. However, eventually Diesel did get over and by the time he went to wcw with his character down pat the guy was a huge draw and mainstay in the nWo. By the time Diesel left the company the wwe had created Diesel to a level where the fans would have respected and accepted him as WWE Champion.

 

The wwf jumped to HBK with the strap as the leader of the new generation and he also got mixed reactions, but look at how he is viewed now. It took HBK two years to really find his character as WWE Champion when he passed the torch to Austin the rightful owner of the crown at WM 14. The problem was the wwe gave up on HBK in 1996 when it was kind of obvious he was the "showstopper" for that generation. It was Bret Hart fans and fans of that nature that didn't like his style that booed him as champion. He didn't fit the traditional champion with the more flashy Mexican style, but he did get to the main event by his popularity before the fans had turned on him.

 

The wwf found naturals sort of like Hogan in Rock and Austin, so we'll skip that timeframe. The next guy who got the heat from fans was....HHH. Rick Scaia has archives ripping on the guy about being premature as champion in 1999. However, the wwf knew from the popularity he got in DX that he was a future main eventer and worker. However, the heat grew on HHH going over Austin at No Mercy I believe. The wwe hotshotted and hurt HHH's reigns early in his career. It's when HHH got balanced with the title and feuded with Foley did he start to find his groove as champion and we know how things went after that.

 

I just think the wwe MIGHT be learning from the past and that is why they are not turning Cena heel just YET or even taking the title REALLY off him(not that 3 week thing with Edge). Cena did prove himself to get over as US Champion. The wwe even built up a good angle for Cena to topple JBL as champion last year. Similar to the wwe creating a great angle for Diesel to "usher" in the new generation in 1995(although it started with Bret's run).

 

I just think the wwe knows sometimes the fans are fickle and eventually will settle on having Cena as a heel or face. Another thing is this. Hulk Hogan was getting boos in wcw in 1994, but it took wcw until 1996 to turn him heel and eventually that created a situation where fans BOUGHT the heel turn so much that it ushered in a new era.

 

I think the wwe is using this with Cena at the moment. They don't got to offically turn him heel yet, because he is already the top heel to wrestling fans wearing the strap. It's when his merchandise stops selling and movie bombs the trigger might be pulled and if he STILL wears the belt at that time the wwe will have a gold mine imo with all fans wanting the strap off Cena. Then in kayfabe terms Cena will have solidifed his championship status and also in the eyes of the younger generation and females have turned his back on them. This is Hulk Hogan 1996 formula at work here. I could be wrong, but I think the wwe is onto something here with Cena. Cena vs. RVD at an ECW event would really be off the radar. Cena also having faces and heels all going for him would be something completely new in wrestling and IT WOULD WORK because of the dynamics expressed already with him pleasing his fans and outraging real wrestling fans.

 

I mean in another thread it says Vince is determined to stick it to the defiant fans with Cena's reign by keeping him face for now and then really turning it up a notch by turning him heel in the summer. The wwe might have the powder keg to get the casuals back with this one just as I said a couple of months ago.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

No.

[Promoter 0]

So why is Vince using this "traditionalist fan" angle? Hogan had the same detractors in 1984 and 1985 where it led to the AWA and NWA holding supershows to stop the circus of the wwf and have "traditional wrestling". Why are there now rumours of John Cena defending the WWE title against Rob Van Damn at an ECW show of all places instead of Triple H? If Cena goes over RVD at an ECW show he would have gone over RVD and HHH this year and both guys are a great representative of the attitude and ecw era. We may not like it, but I can see Vince thinking along these lines by keeping the kids and girls screaming for Cena and then turn the guy officially heel at ECW's show or the RAW after. He'll be more hated then HHH has been legitimately by the casuals since 2002-2003.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

They use "traditional fans" as a way of spinning the response they tried to ignore for months - it's not Cenas fault that the fans are booing them, it's just a matter of taste and the fans which boo him prefer someone like HHH. It's nothing more than that. The WWE simply isn't smart enough to look at Cena as a heel.

[cabbageboy 0]

There's more to consider than just Cena with that RVD/ECW scenario. I just read today that One Night Stand is scheduled for next year. Thing is, if they dare job RVD out at that show here's the chain reaction for that action:

 

--Whatever ECW PPVs they plan won't draw a dime.

--They could forget about future ECW DVDs as well.

--It's liable to lead to a really huge blowup with Heyman the day of the show. I'm talking not even sending guys out to work, etc.

--Needless to say it would kill RVD's career to job at the ECW show, much like when Davey Boy Smith lost to Michaels in England.

--There would flat out be a riot. If Cena beat RVD at that show they better have a big amount of security, cause they would lynch him.

--It would flat out alienate a hell of a lot of die hard fans. Where are all these newbies going to come from to replace those who just stop watching wrestling if they did something like that?

 

Add to it, it's simply NOT BELIEVABLE for John Cena to beat Rob Van Dam in an ECW environment.

 

Other things to consider are people like HHH. Is HHH going to sit idly by and let Cena go over him continually? I'd personally send Cena back over to SD in the draft, since he never should have left. Keep a belt off him for a while, make fans want him to get back on top again.

[Promoter 0]

Very true about pissing off the ecw fans and even wwe fans. That is something they got to be careful about.

However, consider this as well............

 

--We don't know for sure future ecw ppv shows wouldn't draw a dime. This is like saying after WM 16, WM wouldn't draw a dime because the heel won. Obviously, that was not the case as they drew an even bigger buy-rate the following year. They don't have to put RVD/Cena in the last spot. They could put a more traditional ecw main event such as Cactus Jack against Terry Funk. Cena against an ecw alumni isn't really ecw and niether is RVD winning a WWE Title. The point of having the WWE Title at the show is to get wwe fans to purchase the event just like they did incorporating the wwe stars in last year's event. The RVD/Cena feud doesn't have to end at the ecw ppv as they will try to draw traditional ecw fans into the wwe feud of RVD/Cena.

 

--I don't think they have to worry about future ECW dvd products selling because they are actual real ecw events instead of the wwe endorsed events. That is the main selling point about those kind of DVDs.

 

--Vince really has the last say about ECW because he OWNS it and he would just sue the workers for not doing the show. Heyman also knows doing these ecw events are a way to preserve his baby that he created.

 

--RVD's career being killed is a potential hazard I completely agree. This would be the best time to have RVD win the belt. However, who does the wwe have more money and time invested in? You brought up HBK and Bulldog's match which is a good comparison. I don't really like the idea of RVD getting screwed up or over even more, but in the long term the wwe had time and money invested in HBK. It led to that nasty fall out in Montreal a couple of months later. I see Vince looking at Cena in the same fashion.

 

--RIOT Yes, they better get security for Cena!

 

--It will alienate fans even more and that is exactly what Cena is doing right now. A major reason why he's getting booed because his gimmick is a "thug" and "gangster", he talks tough, but yet he acts like a choir boy...the majority of his remaining fanbase is little kids who buy all his stuff and females who idolize him because they want to f*** him. most grown men (the most populous, vocal portion of fans usually) are sick of this goody two shoes sissy. he needs to get vicious, get on the mic and FIGHT BACK. ATTACK THE FANS. Do it, John. "Y'all turned on me...so the Chain Gang can kiss my ass!!!!" thats all you have to say, and instantly, the character is interesting again. Right now, when people are booing him, its like theyre daring him to break character and tell them off and act badass again, and he just wont do it, and that in turn makes people more angry.

 

I think that is where Vince is going with Cena. HHH was bad enough for wwe wrestling fans at friggin WRESTLEMANIA. He is still booked as a face and now they want him to go into ecw turf and defend against RVD who has been held down for YEARS? That is a boiling powder keg ready to explode.

 

--I agree about having a hard time believing HHH will sit idly by and watch Cena take over the top heel spot, but if he is smart he would let it happen. HHH can already get out of the other job by having Edge get pinned at Backlash. I would actually send HHH to smackdown, but I know that aint happening.

 

I also know they are spinnning the boos with the "traditional fans" angle. It's the same type of thing they did with Austin and Bret in 1997 when they couldn't grasp why fans were cheering Austin instead of Bret when they were booking Hart as a babyface. It eventually led to Hart being a unique heel in America and a face everywhere else. The spinning tells me they have something planned for the character to change.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

When Cena begins to act like a heel -as the WWE has defined a heel forever and not some half-brained attempt at rationalizing why they keep him in a face role - and the WWE sets up a heel to turn face, then any comparisons to Austin/Hart can have a foundation. Until then, you are assuming they have a sense of subtlety.

 

Let me put this in perspective.

 

You are assuming the company that has put God in a wrestling match has a sense of subtlety.

 

As is, the WWE is just trying to suck as much as they can out of Cenas merchandising power by keeping him in a face role.

[Art Sandusky 0]

My support for the fans being the problem with Cena's reactions is in all the threads about them and show reports and all that. Since the hardcore fans are the only ones left and have been for a pretty long time now, the percentage of fans that are of the internet persuasion are increasing. What we're seeing is the first time this element of the fanbase is making itself impossible to ignore.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

RRR is right. John Cena is suffering from "The Jeff Hardy Effect", in which he gets booed by guys more because the females and kids are cheering him.

[Promoter 0]

When Cena begins to act like a heel -as the WWE has defined a heel forever and not some half-brained attempt at rationalizing why they keep him in a face role - and the WWE sets up a heel to turn face, then any comparisons to Austin/Hart can have a foundation. Until then, you are assuming they have a sense of subtlety.

 

Let me put this in perspective.

 

You are assuming the company that has put God in a wrestling match has a sense of subtlety.

 

As is, the WWE is just trying to suck as much as they can out of Cenas merchandising power by keeping him in a face role.

 

 

Okay, I see exactly what you are saying. However, Austin/Hart's situation was unique at the time. All I'm saying is that the wwe has a nuique situation here that has not really been explored before. If they go right into traditional booking it will take away the dynamic they have right now. If they do it exactly the same the sting would be gone. People expected and it's even rumoured that some staff wanted the double turn at Mania. The problem is that fans would probably start backing Cena after a month and start booing HHH again. It would also have been expected because that was the exact same booking of Austin/Bret. Now, they have people wondering if Cena is going to continue to be superman or turn heel and suspecting if Edge or HHH will take the title and defend against RVD at the ecw ppv. If HHH had just won the title and then be put into an RVD feud it would all feel like deja vu.

 

If rumours are to be believed then I kind of understand where Vince is coming from by booking things like they are now. People always complain the wwe does the same old thing and even in this thread I think I remember someone saying the wwe always falls into the good guy/bad guy stigma which is boring or stale. Vince supposedly is taking a different route with Cena because this situation is different. Cena had people chanting "Let's go Shelton" a few weeks back for crying out loud. Shelton for all the gimmicks they are putting on the guy hasn't got that kind of response since.

 

I just think they have to think outside the box with Cena in this instance. Of course, you are 100% right about this company not doing things with subtletly, but they did play it safe at Mania because they booked Cena to win like a babyface, yet also had them playing the crowd in HHH's favour in case the inevitable heel heat Cena got came into play. If the crowd was a pro-Cena it would have worked. Reports say the street fight rematch at a house show had Cena getting babyface pops. This is just flat out strange and I don't think they should do the normal booking because it may just kill the heat they are getting with Cena at the moment. There has to be a climax sometime soon, but I don't think having him job out to HHH and depsuhed will help anybody in the big picture. The fan reaction is a battle in the arena and they could build off that like the monday night war of wcw fans against wwe fans. I really think doing the predictable thing will just kill the title heat right now. The hardcore fans aren't going to go anywhere because they will want to see Cena get his comeuppance. Cena is still selling the most merchandise despite all of this. When Hogan was getting booed in wcw in 1995 this did not happen. The same with HBK in 1996. If the rumour is true with Vince for the first time in a long time he is trying to do something that has not been done. Will it work? Who knows? but it's better than giving the fans HHH winning the title at Mania with the happy ending and going back 2 years to the same old thing. Cena/Vince actually got over a million people to tune in after HHH lost a whole bunch of viewers with his promo/video package. Cena has tremondous heat and Vince knows it.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

For future reference, I read about 1/10th of what you write in your posts.

[Jingus 0]

I don't think that means certain cities are more "pro-heel" than others, as has been stated elsewhere.

 

Yes there are. There are some areas and venues where a heel has a better chance of being cheered than elsewhere. Chicago, obviously (booing Cena was expected, but booing Trish and Rey?!), it happens in Philadelphia all the time, and Madison Square Garden has seen its share of that sort of thing (recall their thunderous ovation for Sid beating HBK for the title at SurSer '96). Hell, even at the local indy shows around here, some buildings are more pro-heel than others. Also, some guys are over in certain areas, regardless of their face/heel status, for uncertain reasons: like how Hogan always gets cheered in Canada, for one.