ALDS: Detroit Tigers vs. New York Yankees

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Good for the Tigers. I enjoyed the celebration after the game. That is all.

[Guest Felonies!]

The only positive support Alexander could receive is being shipped out to the West Coast where us more civilized and better people reside.

Neither Phoenix nor Buffalo is the west coast, Leena.

 

Torre's getting fired?!? WHAT TEH FA.UK?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2617224

[JangoFett4Hire 0]

Buffalo is on the west coast on NY state, kinda. I mean, it is on water.

[Precious Roy 0]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that the Yankees have a problem.

 

They won 97 games this year. They haven't missed the Playoffs since 1993. The last five teams that won World Championships didn't make the playoffs this season. The simple fact is that you can not guarantee postseason success unless you make your team so far above the competition that it defies logic. A team that has a 75% chance to win any given series still isn't better than a 50/50 shot to win the whole thing.

 

What it comes down to is that you CAN'T buy a team. Superstars in our generation are not that much better than the average player. You gain a little extra in the margins, but teams with many superstars tend to have worse players outside of the starting slots. So the Yankees' opponents have better rotations, better bullpens, and better benches. Having that edge, it is only a matter of solving the starting lineup. And all of those guys, with the exception of Cano, are worse now than when the Yankees acquired them.

 

It's the same thing I say about the Braves. There's a certain point where regular season success leading to post season failure becomes more trouble than it's worth. Yes, you can win your division every year, but if you never win it all what does it matter? And in the case of the NYY it's amplified by their payroll and the media spotlight.

 

Bottom line...pitching...chemistry.....VERY IMPORTANT....the Yankees have not had it come playoff time the last couple years. That's the problem, and there is no easy fix, but there ARE steps that can (and need to) be taken to correct that.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Chemistry's something you do in a high school classroom.

 

A bunch of millionaires failing because they supposedly don't have any, is an absurd notion.

[Precious Roy 0]

Chemistry's something you do in a high school classroom.

 

A bunch of millionaires failing because they supposedly don't have any, is an absurd notion.

 

bullshit

 

Have you ever been on a team?

[Hawk 34 0]

Chemistry's something you do in a high school classroom.

 

A bunch of millionaires failing because they supposedly don't have any, is an absurd notion.

 

bullshit

 

Have you ever been on a team?

 

I have been on many teams and chemistry is greatly over rated. It's one thing if the entire team hated each other but they dont have to be best friends outside the game.

 

All it takes is physical chemistry, for certain styles to blend together as a unit. Personal chemistry doesn't do much, if anything on the playing field.

[Guest Felonies!]

Especially with baseball, which is really just a sequence of one-on-one competitions, you don't need that much chemistry.

[Hawk 34 0]

In fact, Basketball is probably the only major sport where chemistry between players is a issue and even with good talent, you can overcome the lack of chemistry (see the LA Lakers dynasty of Shaq and Kobe). So in short, anyone that believes in the concept of chemistry never really played sports on a meaningful level or completely brought the excuses people throw out for failure.

 

Is it a good thing for a team to be "close"? Yes, but it's not a guarantee for success.

[Guest Felonies!]

Remember the Oakland A's who hated each other? They got by.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

At the end of the day, the Tigers were a better team. They may have not had a better offensive lineup (on paper), but the opposing rotations weren't anywhere near the same level. I highly doubt Jaret Wright doesn't suck ass in Game 4 if A-Rod gets along with everyone on the team.

[bob_barron 0]

Well, Wright did get yanked from the game b/c of A-Rod's error. :-)

 

Firing Torre is the right move.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Yeah, maybe next year those losers will win more than 97 lousy games.

[bob_barron 0]

When you have the payroll the GDP of all of Europe and the expectations the Yankees had, losing in the first round two years in a row isn't good enough. Torre lost his touch in 2003, I really don't think he's a good manager anymore. How he survived the collapse in 2004, I'll never know.

[Guest NYankees]

When you have the payroll the GDP of all of Europe and the expectations the Yankees had, losing in the first round two years in a row isn't good enough. Torre lost his touch in 2003, I really don't think he's a good manager anymore. How he survived the collapse in 2004, I'll never know.

 

 

I have to agree with Bob again. When the payroll is 200 million and your job is to win the World Series and you dont it is considered a failure. It is even more amplified because it has been 6 straight years without winning. There is something wrong with management and you cant fire the whole team. Torre did a great job in his first 5 years by pushing the right buttons but in his last six it has been sub par to ok. Overall he did great and this job built his legacy and made him a hall of famer.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Joe Torre did not sign Carl Pavano for four years at $39 million.

 

Joe Torre did not sign Jaret Wright for three years at $21 million.

 

Joe Torre did not sign Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield to lengthy contracts that would ensure part of those years would include their respective declines.

 

Joe Torre did not insist on building a starting lineup of All-Stars that left no money for the bench, middle relief and backend of the starting rotation.

 

Joe Torre did not insist on trading for an aging hurler and then signing him to a lengthy extension.

 

Torre got all of this credit when the Yankees went on a tear without Matsui and Sheffield, but now he's suddenly back to being a terrible manager. He made some questionable moves in the ALDS (benching Sheffield, hitting A-Rod eighth, etc.), but none of these moves would have made the ultimate difference.

 

The team was simply outmatched and that can happen when you face a team that won 95 games, primarily on pitching strength and the best you could counter with was a finished 43-year-old and a perennially bad pitcher with one good season to his credit since the mid-1990s. Get over it.

[bob_barron 0]

I don't think Torre did that great a job this season either. No one is saying Steinnbrenner isn't at fault, since he is. But year after year, Torre's mismanaging is killing them in the playoffs. Yes they're winning 95-100 games every year, but the culture of New York doesn't allow for just that.

 

He's simply not a good manager anymore, and since you can't fire Steinbrenner, I think Torre needs to go. He simply just can't motivate the team anymore. His time has passed.

[Brett Favre 0]

Torre not being the manager is weird. Maybe we do need a new voice, I don't know. The players looked uninspired. But not seeing Torre in the dugout is surreal.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I don't think the problem with superstar-laden teams is chemestry. There are three issues that do matter, however.

 

1. When you're building your team with free agents, you are limited to the position you have open and the specific crop available that year. When you sign a top tier free agent, you must sign him to a long term deal that extends beyond his prime years. So while you get a premium player now, you get a less than optimum player as he ages.

 

As a bonus, most players reach free agency about the time they turn 30, as they exit their prime seasons. So you are almost always buying a player on the decline. Of the Yankees' regulars, only Robinson Cano and Melky Cabrera can be expected to improve next season.

 

2. Superstars tend to be offensive players. Teams built with superstars create a great deal of offense, but their defense stinks (I think this is the biggest problem with Team USA). You can't win on offense alone, and defense may be more important than we all thought. Is it a coincidence that the Yankees' pitching has been awful the last several years?

 

3. I have not studied this at all, but I suspect there is a law of diminishing returns at work. The Yankees had seven players in their lineup post OPS+ figures above 120. The Indians had four such players. The Yankees had 8/9 above average hitters, while the Indians had five. The net benefit of those three extra bashers? A mere 60 runs.

 

A big bat in the middle of your lineup will produce runs. But I suspect when you add big bats to your 7,8 spots, you are just getting minimal added results then you would if you just threw in a few average players who could produce in other aspects of the game. Simply put, you don't need every player in your lineup to smash the ball to produce runs.

[randomguy 0]

Torre can only work with what he has. The Yankees teams that won were simply better teams with MUCH better pitching.

 

In the regular season when you face a bunch of jobber pitchers a hearty offense will win you a lot of games. When you face better pitchers suddenly your offense doesn't look so great.

 

I would be interested to see what a team like the Yankees does against elite pitchers vs. average ones. Like take the top 15 or so starters in the league by WHIP and see how the Yanks OPS compares against those guys to the rest of the league.

 

A patient team can really victimize bad pitching. Pitchers that pitch in the zone or have pitches that look like they will be in the zone are a lot harder to get into bad counts than guys who miss the zone a lot.

 

The bottom line is that the Yankees pitching sucks, and it has for years. They don't have an ace, they have 2 #2 pitchers and then a bunch of 4s and 5s.

[Guest Paul]

It all comes down to pitching. IF the Yankees can score 6-8 runs per game, they don't need pitching, which is the Steinbrenner philosophy. The problem is, they can't score 6-8 runs when facing good pitching. They need another quality starter and an arm or two for the pen. I'm not sure what firing Torre is going to accomplish...maybe it'll work, maybe not. But they need pitching. If George doesn't see that, well, they're doomed to a Braves-like existance.

[TheShooter 0]

It's not Torre's fault that his team has unreliable pitching or that his billionaire 3rd baseman can't get an RBI in the postseason. Firing him is equivalent to Bush bombing Iraq after 9/11.

[Guest Paul]

Heh.

[bob_barron 0]

Firing him is equivalent to Bush bombing Iraq after 9/11.

 

No.

 

Heh.

 

Yea, no.

 

While the Yankees do have flaws (like every team) Torre is one of those flaws. His 66, his time has past. Let him go to retirement

[Guest Paul]

Maybe Bobby Cox is the answer.

[bob_barron 0]

He's a much better manager then Torre is.

[TheShooter 0]

Ok, this year he managed a team that won the Al East for the 100th time in a row and was tied for the second best record in baseball. Then at the end of the season his team lost a best of 5 series. I think he did a pretty good job with what he had to work with.

[randomguy 0]

The manager in baseball doesn't really matter all that much in the end. Baseball doesn't have a lot of complicated plays like in football, nor does it have a large chemistry element.

 

Success in baseball is almost solely dependent on the players you have. Torre is a fine in-game manager. Seriously what would Bobby Cox have done differently? Pitched a game himself?

 

When you lose 8-1 how do you pin that on the manager? He told his offense to suck and his pitching to bite?

[Slayer 0]

If George doesn't see that, well, they're doomed to a Braves-like existance.

At least you have some company in neo-Braves limbo with the Cardinals

[Guest NYankees]

There comes a point when it is time for a change. Do you people understand that? How much longer should the Joe Torre era continue? It seems to be that he has lost his magic touch. I am not going to knock the Yankees for signing Pavano, Giambi or Sheffield. The last two were coming off of MVP caliber years and Pavano won 18 games. The Yankees need to go back to basics and get players who cant actually play defense and are role players as well as sure up the pitching rotation and bullpen. There is alot of money coming off of the books this year and then again next year. Giambi, Sheffield, Mussina, Wright, Johnson and Pavano will all be gone by 2008.

 

Bruiser made some great points about the Yankees bench and bullpen back in the day. They had Chili Davis, Tim Raines, Strawberry etc coming off of the bench and Stanton, Nelson, Lloyd and Rivera in the bullpen. Looking back at this past season the Yankees should have went all out to have signed BJ Ryan who had a great year in Toronto. Bruiser you are right about Torre not making all of those questionable signings but he did make some questionable managerial decisions in the past several years.