NLCS: St. Louis Cardinals vs. New York Mets

[Bruiser Chong 0]

He ruined a potential sweep against the Yankees by blowing a 4-0 lead a few months ago.

Which is more important: a sweep of the Yankees during the regular season, which you seemed to have written off as an inconsequential thing anyway, or to still be playing in October, while the Yankees are at home?

 

So what you're saying is that it's never right to boo anyone because we can't play better than they can?

No, he's saying it's stupid and short-sighted to boo someone on your team because they fail. If it's a constant thing, then yes, there comes a time when it becomes somewhat justified, even though I don't see how it helps them do any better. But Wagner's been one of the most reliable forces on this team, so it's stupid to write off all the good he's done, while calling for the guy's head if he fails.

 

And it's highly ironic that a Philly fan is telling someone else not to boo a member of their own team, especially when Wagner got booed in Philly last year and Abreu was run out of town this year.

It'd be ironic if Al had been booing, but last I checked, he doesn't represent the entire Philadelphia Phillies fanbase or vice-versa.

[tominator89 0]

The Phillies players were booed because they made a lot of money and haven't made the postseason in over a decade.

 

Wagner gave up some runs, GET OVER IT! The Mets are still in a good position to beat the Cardinals and go to the World Series.

[alfdogg 0]

No, he's saying it's stupid and short-sighted to boo someone on your team because they fail. If it's a constant thing, then yes, there comes a time when it becomes somewhat justified, even though I don't see how it helps them do any better. But Wagner's been one of the most reliable forces on this team, so it's stupid to write off all the good he's done, while calling for the guy's head if he fails.

I'd say this sums up my feelings on this matter.

[vivalaultra 0]

Billy Wagner giving up a homerun to So Taguchi reminded me of last year when Lidge gave up the game-winner to Scott Podsednik. Wagner throws 99-mph fastballs. So Taguchi has hit 16 homeruns in the last 6 years. It's not like he threw a cookie down the middle to Pujols or something. It was So Taguchi. By all accounts, he should've, at worst, gotten a double, but, he hit a homerun. The Guch went up there and had a good at-bat. Wagner threw one down the middle. Taguchi hit it out. Sometimes that happens. The fact of the matter is that 9.5 times out of 10, Wagner doesn't give up any runs. He did last nite, and the Mets still had the last at-bat. Why not get pissed off that nobody in the bottom of the 9th could get anything going? Baseball's a team sport...pick up your teammates.

 

So, anybody hear about Pujols talkin' shit about Tom Glavine, saying that the other nite Glavine didn't pitch that well and wasn't foolin' any of the Cardinals' hitters? He said that Glavine was just doing what he always does...throwing changeups and fastballs and the Cardinals were all over him but just couldn't get any breaks. Sorry, Albert, I don't agree...

[TheTomster 0]

Erm.....so who won?

[Bruiser Chong 0]

So, anybody hear about Pujols talkin' shit about Tom Glavine, saying that the other nite Glavine didn't pitch that well and wasn't foolin' any of the Cardinals' hitters? He said that Glavine was just doing what he always does...throwing changeups and fastballs and the Cardinals were all over him but just couldn't get any breaks. Sorry, Albert, I don't agree...

Yeah, I saw that. Just sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

Wagner throws 99-mph fastballs. So Taguchi has hit 16 homeruns in the last 6 years. It's not like he threw a cookie down the middle to Pujols or something.

Contrary to popular belief, if there's a pitch most major leaguers can hit, it's the fastball.

[vivalaultra 0]

Oh, sure most ML players can hit fastballs, but there's a big difference between an 89 MPH fastball and a 99 MPH Wagner fastball. And, even then, I'm sure, at worst, Wagner thought he'd hit a double or something. And he had to challenge him. Pujols was on deck.

[The Man in Blak 0]

So what you're saying is that it's never right to boo anyone because we can't play better than they can? If that's the case then there's no point in cheering on a player either because why give credit to someone for doing something we can't either? If you can't be criticized by lowly plebians, you shouldn't be praised either. And it's highly ironic that a Philly fan is telling someone else not to boo a member of their own team, especially when Wagner got booed in Philly last year and Abreu was run out of town this year.

 

For one, you should be able to tell from his posts here that Al is not your typical Philadelphia sports fan. He bemoaned the Abreu trade when it happened; his old baseball blog name was called the Bobby Abreu Appreciation Society, for Christ's sake.

 

And, though I think it could have been worded a little better, I think Al's point is that your expectations for Wagner are completely unrealistic. He can't save every game and continuing to assert that he "blows it in the important games" when multiple examples of success (including examples from this postseason) have been cited, is sheer fallacy. Can you really tell me that the 42 games that Wagner has saved this year, which includes the two games against the Dodgers in the NLDS, are "unimportant"?

 

That being said, I think the hysteria behind losing this game could be justified, though not because of Wagner's performance. This was a very winnable game that the Mets should have put away three innings into the evening; Carpenter had absolutely nothing - you're not going to see too many outings where he walks more batters than he strikes out, let alone walks four batters at all - and he still managed to limit the damage and go five innings. Randolph grossly mismanaged the bullpen, which threw over 100 pitches in last night's game, and effectively took Mota and Wagner out of the running for today's game. The Cardinals, who are coming up with some momentum, have been a significantly better team at home and, if they can chase Trachsel early, they could chew up even more innings out of the bullpen going into Game 4 with Oliver Perez (~9.00 ERA on the road) and Tom Glavine on short rest.

 

I believe I said in the Dodgers/Mets thread that New York could potentially see some issues with their pitching in a longer series - Randolph burned up a lot of innings in the LA series and, so far, looks to be on pace for a ton of innings in this series. If Trachsel doesn't step up for tonight's game, the Mets could be in some serious trouble going forward.

[The Man in Blak 0]

So, anybody hear about Pujols talkin' shit about Tom Glavine, saying that the other nite Glavine didn't pitch that well and wasn't foolin' any of the Cardinals' hitters? He said that Glavine was just doing what he always does...throwing changeups and fastballs and the Cardinals were all over him but just couldn't get any breaks. Sorry, Albert, I don't agree...

Yeah, I saw that. Just sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

People have been saying that about Glavine for years now. Though I don't think giving the other team bulletin board material is ever a smart thing to do, I think Pujols was just frustrated that they couldn't put anything on the board behind a pretty good start from Weaver.

 

And I tend to agree with Viva (for once) regarding Taguchi. Wagner had run Taguchi to a full count, if I remember right, and he couldn't risk putting a runner on for one of the most dangerous hitters in the game. He threw his best strike, a 99 mph fastball that is no joke, and Taguchi shortened his swing and just managed to put a lick on the ball. Sometimes, you just have to tip your cap.

[naiwf 0]

Why not get pissed off that nobody in the bottom of the 9th could get anything going? Baseball's a team sport...pick up your teammates.

 

Wagner didn't give up ONE run, he gave up 3. I don't have the exact stats, but there are very few times in the course of a season where a team needs to get 3 runs to tie or win the game and do that with just 3 outs to play with. Wagner, Randolph, Mota & Maine deserve to get ripped, and because Wagner makes more than the other 3 guys combined he's taking the brunt of it.

 

When Trachsel & Perez struggle to get through 5 innings each and the bullpen can't pick them up because they're overworked already, the failure last night will only be magnified. At best, the Mets come back home down 3 to 2 with Maine starting (against Carpenter) in Game 6 and probably taking the team's final loss of 2006 logging about 90 pitches to get through 4 or 5 innings and giving up his customary 3 or 4 runs. At this point though, it doesn't really matter since the Tigers will beat either NL team in 5 games or less.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

"Yeah, let's see YOU do any better" is hardly a glowing defense to Wagner's ability. Closers blow games once in a while. Fine. But as I've said before, Wagner has shown several times now that he doesn't blow the inconsequential games -- he has a knack for blowing the important ones. What is the point of making him one of the highest paid closers in baseball if he can't get the saves that will keep this team strong? He ruined a potential sweep against the Yankees by blowing a 4-0 lead a few months ago. He ruined a tie game last night by giving up THREE runs before Randolph finally gave him the hook. He's unreliable in these situations and if you can't rely on your closer to close these important games, then how can you say you still possibly need him? For the $10.5 million/year he's being paid, the Mets can get another very good reliever and an average closer that will do the same job and provide the same stability Wagner has. He hasn't delivered on his contract since arriving in New York, despite what his save statistic seems to say.

 

What you're saying essentially is that you don't believe Wagner is good in clutch situations, and that he is not worth the money he gets.

 

To the first point, he certainly has had some hiccups. He served up one of the greatest regular season comebacks of all time. He gave up key runs in a series against the Astros last year that ultimately cost the Phillies the postseason. However, I honestly do not believe that it represents a vital failure on Wagner's part. His style is to throw straight gas past hitters. Sometimes, as it did last night, that comes back to bite you. Wagner challenges batters. He has only issued one postseason walk in his career. Personally, I would rather have a pitcher challenge batters than have one who continually walks batters (or you can have Mitch Williams, who did both).

 

Wagner's career ERA+ is 180. The only relievers who top that are Mariano Rivera and Francisco Rodriguez. Most other relievers are not even close. Wagner is perhaps the best left handed relief pitcher of all time, and I wouldn't think that this type of performance wouldn't continue.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Cardinals twisted themselves into fits, but feeded off Guillermo Mota. It's quite possible that they are simply a good fastball hitting club.

 

Second, I generally agree that closers are not worth the money. I would not pay ANY closer over ten million dollars just to pitch the ninth inning. I don't think any closer can live up to that.

 

So what you're saying is that it's never right to boo anyone because we can't play better than they can? If that's the case then there's no point in cheering on a player either because why give credit to someone for doing something we can't either? If you can't be criticized by lowly plebians, you shouldn't be praised either. And it's highly ironic that a Philly fan is telling someone else not to boo a member of their own team, especially when Wagner got booed in Philly last year and Abreu was run out of town this year.

 

As others said, I am not your typical Philly fan. At games, the target of my booing is most often fans, the Promotions Guy, and pitchers who throw often to first base (sorry Gavin). Yes, you have a right to boo players, especially if they perform badly. The problem comes when you boo a player before he fails, especially after one bad outing. Maybe I'm just too optimistic about this sort of thing, but when your closer comes out next time, instead of chastising him for his last outing, cheer him on for this one. The rest of my thoughts on the matter are summed up well by Bruiser and Vivalaultra.

 

The defeatest attitude as well is nonsense. Steve Trachsel has won two-thirds of his decisions this season. Then you've got a guy who at least throws nasty stuff with or without control. The Mets could just as easily win all three games in St. Louis. I will still be stunned if the Cards win this thing.

[Gert T 0]

Yeah its not like the Mets' bats didn't make the trip to St. Louis.

 

That being said, I like the Cards chances to go back to New York with the series lead.

[devo 0]

Never thought I'd miss the mediocre defense Xavier Nady provided.

[CanadianChris 0]

Thanks for coming out, Trachsel.

[devo 0]

Good lord. I hope Oliver's good for five innings tonight, 'cause the rest of the bullpen is anything but rested.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Local genius moment of the night. A scroll at the bottom of the screen advised viewers that the 10 o'clock news would not be seen tonight. However, you can see it tomorrow. (Except of course that it will be pre-empted for the playoffs again).

[naiwf 0]

Yeah its not like the Mets' bats didn't make the trip to St. Louis.

 

That being said, I like the Cards chances to go back to New York with the series lead.

 

You're making a large assumption that the Mets win with either Oliver Perez or Glavine starting on limited rest.

[Gert T 0]

Well don't get me wrong, Im not impartial here, I'll be rooting for St. Louis, but if I'm the Mets, I'd like to think I can win ONE game in St. Louis.

 

Tomorrow should be an interesting game with the exciting Perez-Reyes matchup.

[devo 0]

Well, if there's one positive thing I can take from this game, it's that Darren Oliver was fantastic.

 

Kinda scary to think that the Mets' World Series hopes rests partly on the shoulders of Oliver Perez, but whaddaya gonna do.

[Vern Gagne 0]

St.Louis is two wins away from reaching the WS with the least amount of wins in a non-strike season.

[devo 0]

I'm really disappointed in the Mets' play so far, and am legitimately amazed that they're down two games to one. There's no need to enter panic mode yet, though. Neither Anthony Reyes or Oliver Perez are particularly good pitchers, but Perez seems to have more potential for greatness. I'm not expecting the CG shutout he threw against Atlanta, but I do think he'll be good for five innings of occasionally shaky, occasionally breathtaking work. Darren Oliver's amazing performance last night is incredibly important, as he gave the bullpen, which will probably be responsible for at least three innings tonight, much-needed time to rest.

 

As for tomorrow, I trust Glavine on short rest much more than I would Weaver on short rest. It's about time for Jeff's luck to catch up with him anyway. If he completes another start without giving up a run, I'll eat my hat.

[iggymcfly 0]

Can I amend my Cards in 7 pick to Cards in 6? To be fair, at the time, I thought Carpenter would be starting in Game 7. As things stand, I don't see any way the Mets win with Perez starting tonight and an exhausted bullpen, and you know Carpenter's going to get one good start after having a terrible outing in the Cards' win in Game 2.

[randomguy 0]

Wow that a great and awful defensive play.

[devo 0]

Well, he's already got Steve Trachsel completely beat.

 

Edit: I love Carlos Beltran. That graphic introspective on his personal life was a tad unnecessary, though.

 

Edit the second: Wright gets his first hit of the CS in style, banging a solo shot over the left field wall to make the game 2-1 Mets.

 

Edit whatever: DELGADO~! Three run homer puts the Mets up 5-2. Damn he's been incredible.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Well alll the sudden the situation does not look so dire for the Mets.

[strummer 0]

Carlos Delgado has been a beast in this series

[devo 0]

Oliver Perez might pitch the rest of the game the way this inning is going.

 

Yep, that looks like a definite certainty now.

 

Damn that was a great catch.

[randomguy 0]

Why is Chad Bradford on a new team every single year? He always does pretty well, then is moved.

[devo 0]

I think it's because management doesn't trust him to string together two solid years. They might feel that his ability lies solely in his delivery, and that he'll be repeatedly hammered once hitters catch onto it.

 

What a relief this game was. The only thing that would have made it perfect is if Perez could have held on for a little longer. As it is, he pitched long enough to make long relief tomorrow a possibility if necessary, which is what's important.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Bradford really hasn't traveled that much. Boston gave him a one year contract last year due to concerns about his back injury. Personally, 'd love to see him on the Phils next year.