Chris Benoit Dead - Toxicology results released

[World's Worst Man 0]

If that's true, and it is by no means proven, who would be to blame for that?

[Mecca 0]

If that's true, and it is by no means proven, who would be to blame for that?

 

The industry in general?

[UZI Suicide 0]

The only people who make fun of guys for being fat or small are fucking idiots. Someone make fun of Vader or Stan Hansen. Please.

[Nate 0]

WWE puts pressure on wrestlers to use steroids and has a horrible policy to curtail abuse, though.

 

Bix you huffin paint chips or something, i seriously doubt they go up to someone like Batista and say HERE YOU NEED TO SHOOT THIS UP TO GET BIGGER, call me crazy but i bet the guys we all think are on steroids really are not

 

Um Bix thinks pretty much every wrestling problem right now is the fault of the WWE......trying to convince him otherwise is going to be a tireless and pointless exercise.

 

well lesson learned WWE is not the evil the haters wanna think they are

[World's Worst Man 0]

If that's true, and it is by no means proven, who would be to blame for that?

 

The industry in general?

 

Oh, I must have missed the widespread pushing of huge, steroid freaks before the WWF started doing it in the 80's.

[Guest NateW]

You know fans play right into this perception........

 

We make fun of guys for being fat or being small.......the "big muscle fetish" runs very deep in pro wrestling at all ends.

 

Speaking of the role fans play, how about how hardcore fans despise the WWE style and like their wrestlers working without limitations. You know the type of style that

leads wrestlers to drug use and can cause theses talked about concussions featuring crazy highspots, harcore violence, wrestlers stiffing the crap out of each other and doing all these headdropping moves. I just have to laugh when I see Meltzer painting WWE as being evil for their way of life, yet here he is glorifying the ROH PPV.

 

People talk about the pressures Chris Benoit had. There was more than just a grueling schedule and a boss marking out for juiced up physiques. Since he was labeled as a "great worker" for so may years by wrestling news reporters and hardcore fans there was also the pressure for him to deliver these "five star classics" or "match of the year candidates". To do that you usually have to work a style and take these risks in the ring that lead to these pill problems and concussions. Wrestlers are big marks for this type of universal praise from the sheets and the internet. Not to mention that Benoit was limited on charisma so there was even more pressure to deliver "show stealing classics" since "workrate" was his main selling point.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Yea, because wrestlers are tearing muscles and dropping dead in Japan, where the style is much tougher. The wrestling style argument was debunked a while ago, when it was pointed out that the schedule is much easier, and that the wrestlers don't work those incredibly demanding matches more than once or twice a month. But you keep sticking it to the smarks there, skippy.

[Mecca 0]

If that's true, and it is by no means proven, who would be to blame for that?

 

The industry in general?

 

Oh, I must have missed the widespread pushing of huge, steroid freaks before the WWF started doing it in the 80's.

 

Those guys the NWA was pushing out there were sure cruiserweights........the Road Warriors I'm sure they weren't roided up before they eventually got to the WWF.

 

How many people....just on this board made fun of Triple H when he was obviously off the juice and was looking fat?

[World's Worst Man 0]

What part of "widespread" don't you understand? The Road Warriors had a lot going for them outside of a physique too, in case you've never seen them wrestle.

[Mecca 0]

Ah so I got it........any big muscular guy that got widespread push is directly the fault of Vince McMahon? So basically Lex Lugers entire 80's career of working 800 matches with Flair is all Vince's fault also.....

 

I guess Superstar Billy Graham owes his push to Vince also despite it coming long before Vince was in charge of anything.

[Guest NateW]

Yea, because wrestlers are tearing muscles and dropping dead in Japan, where the style is much tougher. The wrestling style argument was debunked a while ago, when it was pointed out that the schedule is much easier, and that the wrestlers don't work those incredibly demanding matches more than once or twice a month. But you keep sticking it to the smarks there, skippy.

 

 

Not quite, and I'm not even specifically talking about Japanese wrestlers and roids are not the only bad drugs in wrestling. There are a number of wrestlers who make a living off of wrestling without working for WWE. Their schedules are not far off from a WWE schedule when you combine bookings for groups like ROH, FIP, Chikara, PWG, IWA-MS, plus indies that are not as publicized on the internet as the feds I just mentioned, along with tours in Japan or Europe. Non-WWE wrestlers work at least a few times a week. Not to point any fingures at these wrestlers, but keep track of the schedule wrestlers like Claudio, Matt Sydal, Delirious, Roderick Strong work. WWE isn't the industry and many in TNA and ROH have turned them down.

 

 

[World's Worst Man 0]

ROH runs three to four times a month, so I don't think singling them out makes much sense. I'd have to really see the schedules of some of these guys to make a judgment, but I also know that a lot of these indy guys (the established ones at least) aren't going full-out in every match they wrestle. They also typically aren't hugely roided up (Not say they don't use, but they clearly aren't using to the degree of some of these WWE guys), which is better for their short-term health, which then leads to less of a necessity for painkillers. And while it may sound stupid, the ring type has a lot to do with it too, as the WWE uses a much harder ring than the indies do.

 

Japan has traditionally had the toughest style of pro-wrestling (they also do not use springy rings like American indies), yet the wrestlers there aren't dying left and right, nor do they seem to suffer the same amount of serious injuries as wrestlers in the US do. That tells me that style by itself isn't a problem. It might be a problem when added in on top of the schedule and drug issues, but I'd say it's clear that the latter is a more serious problem at this point.

[Jingus 0]

Ross shouldn't have talked to the reporters, period. Apparently he was the ONLY person who did.

 

No, you can't force reporters to go away and not cover a story. I was shaking my head at the absurdity of that one.

 

Pete Doyle's "look, the WWE does help people!" examples are stupid. According to him, a person has to be literally falling down and verbally incoherent, BEFORE they work the show (because from what I've heard, being so afterward isn't uncommon) before they're sent to rehab. Uh-huh. That kind of ignores all the functioning addicts who hide their symptoms, all the steroid-related heart attacks, all that kinds of stuff.

[justcoz 0]

If that's true, and it is by no means proven, who would be to blame for that?

 

The industry in general?

 

Oh, I must have missed the widespread pushing of huge, steroid freaks before the WWF started doing it in the 80's.

 

Well, considering that the 80's WWF steroid freaks came from other territories that Vince raided - I would say, yes, you missed that. It wasn't like the WWF had home grown roid freaks back then. Everyone came from a territory and I would venture to say that most of them had experimeted with steroids. Meltzer (since people around here worship his gospel so much) stated that Dick the Bruiser was on roids as far back as the 60's. Just because people saw that Vince was making a lot of money with Hogan in the WWF and decided that they wanted to get up there and be as big as Hogan, physically and financially, doesn't mean they pressured anyone.

 

WWE can change the perception by not pushing people with size but they don't have a gun to anyone's head saying take steroids.

[Jingus 0]

You know fans play right into this perception........

 

We make fun of guys for being fat or being small.......the "big muscle fetish" runs very deep in pro wrestling at all ends.

EXCELLENT point. I get real sick and tired of hearing "Rey is too small to be a top guy" or "Joe is fat". You've been brainwashed to believe exactly what Vince wants you to about Bigger Iz Better, idiots.

[World's Worst Man 0]

You know fans play right into this perception........

 

We make fun of guys for being fat or being small.......the "big muscle fetish" runs very deep in pro wrestling at all ends.

EXCELLENT point. I get real sick and tired of hearing "Rey is too small to be a top guy" or "Joe is fat". You've been brainwashed to believe exactly what Vince wants you to about Bigger Iz Better, idiots.

 

Only dolts who believe WWE doesn't deserve any blame in this situation think stuff like that Notice how he said "we".

[justcoz 0]

Ross shouldn't have talked to the reporters, period. Apparently he was the ONLY person who did.

 

No, you can't force reporters to go away and not cover a story. I was shaking my head at the absurdity of that one.

 

Pete Doyle's "look, the WWE does help people!" examples are stupid. According to him, a person has to be literally falling down and verbally incoherent, BEFORE they work the show (because from what I've heard, being so afterward isn't uncommon) before they're sent to rehab. Uh-huh. That kind of ignores all the functioning addicts who hide their symptoms, all the steroid-related heart attacks, all that kinds of stuff.

 

So you are saying that it's up to an employer to monitor the behavior of an invididual 24 hours a day? I guess Fit Finlay should have been at Eddie Guerrerro's hotel room to smack that bottle of vicodin out of his hands along with the bottle of Jack Daniels he used to swallow it down? The WWE has sent countless people to rehab when a problem presented itself. They also released a lot of talent over the issue as Pete Doyle pointed out. But that's lost on people like you who are going to nitpick and hold them accountable for every little thing. This industry is far from perfect, we all know that but don't cry for "more to be done" and then discredit legitimate examples of action being taken, guys being put through rehab, taken off the show to get treatment, etc. just to win an argument.

[Jingus 0]

Yeah, I'm not a fan. I'm a former TV play-by-play announcer on a local cable access show at midnight, so I'm different and better than all the rest of you peons, KNEEL BEFORE ZOD JINGUS.

[dubq 0]

Okay, am I the only one here who doesn't know who the fuck Pete Doyle is??

[Jingus 0]

So you are saying that it's up to an employer to monitor the behavior of an invididual 24 hours a day? I guess Fit Finlay should have been at Eddie Guerrerro's hotel room to smack that bottle of vicodin out of his hands along with the bottle of Jack Daniels he used to swallow it down? The WWE has sent countless people to rehab when a problem presented itself. They also released a lot of talent over the issue as Pete Doyle pointed out. But that's lost on people like you who are going to nitpick and hold them accountable for every little thing. This industry is far from perfect, we all know that but don't cry for "more to be done" and then discredit legitimate examples of action being taken, guys being put through rehab, taken off the show to get treatment, etc. just to win an argument.

No, there's really not much more they can do. It would help if they had a REAL drug testing policy instead of the easily beatable bullshit that they've got now. I was just saying Doyle was naming ridiculously over-the-top examples where the WWE would've been legally liable if they hadn't done anything.

[justcoz 0]

What part of "widespread" don't you understand? The Road Warriors had a lot going for them outside of a physique too, in case you've never seen them wrestle.

 

Yes, they clearly demonstrated that in the early days on Georgia Championship Wrestling when they would come to the ring to Iron Man, clothesline and press slam two dudes, beating them in 20 seconds. Don't get me wrong, I loved the Road Warriors, and they became good big workers but they were roided up freaks as much as anyone else in that time period.

 

Whatever roided up WWF guys from the 80's you are referring to - like Snuka, Orndorf, Hogan, Ventura, Patera, Big John Studd, Rick Rude, Randy Savage, The Warlord, Ultimate Warrior, Road Warriors, etc. all came from other territories where they were pushed and covered heavily by the wrestling press.

 

I guess congress needs to address Bill Apter too.

 

[Mecca 0]

You know fans play right into this perception........

 

We make fun of guys for being fat or being small.......the "big muscle fetish" runs very deep in pro wrestling at all ends.

EXCELLENT point. I get real sick and tired of hearing "Rey is too small to be a top guy" or "Joe is fat". You've been brainwashed to believe exactly what Vince wants you to about Bigger Iz Better, idiots.

 

Only dolts who believe WWE doesn't deserve any blame in this situation think stuff like that Notice how he said "we".

 

We as a context of fans in general........Hey I've been a big fan of Rey Mysterios for a decade now, yes he's small and I'll defend that he should be given a right to be taken legit as a maineventer because he's been a world class worker....

 

But at the same time I don't like Triple H and I made fun of him for looking fat when he was off roids....that was more of me disliking him than being serious about hey his body sucks or anything like that.

 

But the general mark fan base absolutely buys right into the size thing....without it a guy like Lashley or Khali wouldn't be around.

[justcoz 0]

So you are saying that it's up to an employer to monitor the behavior of an invididual 24 hours a day? I guess Fit Finlay should have been at Eddie Guerrerro's hotel room to smack that bottle of vicodin out of his hands along with the bottle of Jack Daniels he used to swallow it down? The WWE has sent countless people to rehab when a problem presented itself. They also released a lot of talent over the issue as Pete Doyle pointed out. But that's lost on people like you who are going to nitpick and hold them accountable for every little thing. This industry is far from perfect, we all know that but don't cry for "more to be done" and then discredit legitimate examples of action being taken, guys being put through rehab, taken off the show to get treatment, etc. just to win an argument.

No, there's really not much more they can do. It would help if they had a REAL drug testing policy instead of the easily beatable bullshit that they've got now. I was just saying Doyle was naming ridiculously over-the-top examples where the WWE would've been legally liable if they hadn't done anything.

 

They weren't over-the-top examples. If I suspect that my friend has a cocaine problem and he shows up for work coked out of his mind and me and my other friends report it to upper managment who give him paid leave and pay for his rehab is that an over-the-top example. Without a drug program in place there is no way to know that someone is fucked up until they show up fucked up and concern people. That's the common reason behind any intervention. People are worried about you. Enough with the oh they were legally liable bullshit. Let's just not give those evil bastards any credit whatsoever for trying to save a life. They were doing it just so they weren't legally liable!

 

They've had a drug testing policy in place for one year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was implemented in February of 2006. No other company in the wrestling industry, in the U.S. or international, have anything else in place. The policy seems effective in treating people abusing pain killers and recreational drugs that could impact behavior like those 'over the top' examples. It just has an ill-advised loophole for steroids/testosterone but don't act like it does no good at all.

[justcoz 0]

Ross shouldn't have talked to the reporters, period. Apparently he was the ONLY person who did.

 

I believe Marc Mero was also quoted by a local paper or tv station but he wasn't there to push his own agenda and wasn't towing the company line so it was okay for him to speak to reporters. Apparently he must have been personally invited by Nancy's family too - since he worked with Nancy and was always around when Daniel was backstage at shows. Oh wait, I'm sorry, I had him mixed up with JR.

 

[Jingus 0]

They've had a drug testing policy in place for one year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was implemented in February of 2006. No other company in the wrestling industry, in the U.S. or international, have anything else in place. The policy seems effective in treating people abusing pain killers and recreational drugs that could impact behavior like those 'over the top' examples. It just has an ill-advised loophole for steroids/testosterone but don't act like it does no good at all.

1. The allowed level of testosterone is higher than any other similar steroid testing policy.

 

2. If you've got a prescription, you get a free pass, no matter what or how much you're taking.

 

3. They don't actually watch the guys pee. It's easy to substitute someone else's urine.

 

 

This isn't a policy designed to actually catch drug users. It's a legal cover-my-ass to point to and claim that they're policing the locker room while still allowing the steroid mutants to rise to the top of the card. And they didn't even do THAT much until Eddie's death forced the issue.

[Mecca 0]

so what would you say to a drug testing policy where guys just pay for shit that doesn't show up?

 

The NFL is infested with steroid mutants no one is crying bloody murder.

[pappajacks 0]

Here is Chavo on Greta Van Susteren...

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT8qlbXYyJQ

 

 

Chavo's reaction to the question of what makes him such a great wrestler is classic.

[Nate 0]

so what would you say to a drug testing policy where guys just pay for shit that doesn't show up?

 

The NFL is infested with steroid mutants no one is crying bloody murder.

 

sad but true Mecca, i'd say a good chunk of the Offensive and Defensive lines in the NFL are on something, i could be wrong though

[justcoz 0]

They've had a drug testing policy in place for one year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was implemented in February of 2006. No other company in the wrestling industry, in the U.S. or international, have anything else in place. The policy seems effective in treating people abusing pain killers and recreational drugs that could impact behavior like those 'over the top' examples. It just has an ill-advised loophole for steroids/testosterone but don't act like it does no good at all.

1. The allowed level of testosterone is higher than any other similar steroid testing policy.

 

2. If you've got a prescription, you get a free pass, no matter what or how much you're taking.

 

3. They don't actually watch the guys pee. It's easy to substitute someone else's urine.

 

 

This isn't a policy designed to actually catch drug users. It's a legal cover-my-ass to point to and claim that they're policing the locker room while still allowing the steroid mutants to rise to the top of the card. And they didn't even do THAT much until Eddie's death forced the issue.

 

I would imagine that this testing costs the company millions of dollars. I really doubt it's a legal cover-my-ass thing. If that was the case, they would have hired any independent fly by night company to administer it. Nobody can argue the obvious loophole with the testosterone level. The theory is they would be dealing with a lot of talent that abused anabolic steroids for a number of years that are now suffering from low testosterone levels. This is a legitimate reason to be prescribed testosterone but we all know that with an allowance of a level that high and the fact that physiques initially got smaller when Eddie died and then beefed back up during the Wellness Program that they were trying to pull one over on people.

 

A prescription doesn't get you a free pass. Especially in the case of pain pills which they don't want people abusing. They call the prescribing doctor and analyze the medical reasoning. None of us know the legitimacy of that claim of course but it's ludicrous to think that they'd spend this much money and turn a blind eye if there were signs of abuse of prescription drugs. The last thing they want is Eugene in another public soma coma.

 

So I'm with you on the testosterone/steroid thing but don't act like they are throwing away millions of dollars just to save face when it comes to drug addiction. Chris Benoit didn't overdose on Vicodin. He mentally snapped and killed his family. You have no proof whatsoever how effective testing has been for abuse of prescription or recreational drugs outside of the obvious thing with Benoit's testosterone levels.

 

And just because someone isn't in the room watching the person urinate doesn't mean that it's quite so easy to switch urine. This isn't job drug testing where you are told you have a drug test at this date or time. Chances are it's random and kept quiet. The agent calls the person aside and takes them to administer the test. It may be impossible to get someone elses urine in that time frame and I doubt guys carry pee around with them to every show. Read Sean Waltman's interview in the Torch - even when someone was watching them pee - they got away with shit. The doctor would turn a blind eye or they'd unizip their pants with the fake penis and someone else's urine.

 

And it took Eddie's death to enforce the testing because they felt it was a mute point if nobody else in the industry tested. They stopped testing when Nitro started overtaking them in the ratings and talent was jumping ship to make more money, work less dates and NOT BE DRUG TESTED. Where was the media - and more importantly where were all of us and the people here damning the company when people like Brian Pillman, Louie Spiccoli, Bobby Duncman Jr and Art Barr died?

[Mecca 0]

Bryan Alvarez appears to be a defeated man...

 

Maybe I'll be wrong. I hope so. Toxicology told us we'll never know the answers. I pretty much knew that three weeks ago. But during that three-week period, it really seemed to me like headway might be made towards making things better in the future. The "list of dead wrestlers", as absurd as it was, was at least opening people's eyes up to a problem. The WWE drug policy was seriously questioned and the possibilities of regulation and congressional hearings were raised. It really looked like there was the potential for some sort of positive change.

 

Instead, it now appears the media is getting tired of this story after not getting the answers they wanted, and they're ready to move on. And that's just another in a long line of tragedies, and guarantees more.