Brock Lesnar

[spman 0]

Ok, so I was having this argument with a friend at work the other day who was swearing up and down to me that Brock Lesnar was one of the worst workers he had ever seen, and I told him that not only was he nuts, but that I would make up a compilation to prove he's nuts. So what do you guys think about Lesnar?

 

Undoubtedly he deserves all the flack in the world for bailing out on the fans and the WWE after all the time they spent building him up and what not, but beyond that, I always felt that for a guy his size, Brock Lesnar usually delivered in the ring. He had more then just a few really good matches with Angle, The Rock, and Eddie, and he even had some really good matches with guys that generally don't have good matches with anyone like Big Show and Undertaker. He was a good brawler and in general was able to move around the ring pretty well. Sure, he botched the big finish at Wrestlemania 19, which people will forever remember, but that wasn't the rule for Lesnar, it was just one exception. So what matches can you guys recommend to prove my point about Lesnar being a good worker?

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I don't think he deserves any flack at all. As a guy that wanted to be a legitimate athlete and wanted to try his hand at football before he got too old, I don't mind that he tried it out. Also, he's gone off on what it's like to work for Vince, and how much he disliked it. He's a hometown guy too, preferring to stay in Minnesota for most of the year rather than travel all the time, like 250 days as the WWE would demand. So I don't see anything wrong with his decision.

[cabbageboy 0]

Oh boy. Those who are longtime posters here know almost exactly what I'm going to say. I think Lesnar sucks for the most part, and he was the first guy in the disturbing trend of pushing rookies way too hard, way too fast. This isn't to say I didn't like any of his work. The Eddie match was easily his best match ever in my book. There are some other matches with him that were decent too, but here are some negatives:

 

--Lesnar had no charisma or mic skills. Thus he wasn't ever truly convincing as either a heel or face. In fact the most heelish he came off as was when Heyman managed him and did the talking for him.

 

--He was sloppy as hell. Not only did he damn near kill himself fucking up the finish for the main event of WM, but he also damn near killed Bob Holly in a match on SD by dropping him on his head during a powerbomb. Add that to the fact that he couldn't even execute his own finisher properly (F5), since he kept knocking guys almost unconscious to the point management made him drop a guy on his side. TEST could do a friggin TKO properly.

[pochorenella 0]

Brock Lesnar is one of those guys that I'll always miss in WWE. I always felt he had all the tools to be one the truly greats in wrestling. His combination of ability, speed, agilty would make any other wrestler jealous. Add to that his physical power and size and you've got a rarely-seen combination that I feel will be difficult to capture again. One of the greatest things I'll remember him doing was catching Orton from a flying bodypress, doing a backwards roll, stand up STILL HOLDING ORTON, and then giving him the F5. The match with Eddie is also a classic IMO. Him ramming his knee on the turnbuckle and bumping to the floor and giving Eddie a fisherman suplex standing on one leg are particular favorites of mine. Of course his botched SSP at WMXIX will always stick out as a black spot for him, but having seen him perform it PERFECTLY before that I don't mind that much. I do hate the fact that he wasted his career at a crucial moment for WMXX. I'd have loved to see him beat that Goldberg idiot like he was supposed to, he should've waited at least until after Mania to hand over his release IMO, but that's all past tense.

Anyway, I consider myself a Brock Lesnar fan, but I guess the chance of him making a serious comeback to pro wrestling is next to inexistant.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Lesnar had no charisma

 

Bullshit.

 

I'm not gonna claim the guy was some charisma God, but to claim he had none? That's asinine. If he had no charisma, how the fuck did he get *cheered* when wrestling the Rock, and Lesnar was the heel?

 

he was the first guy in the disturbing trend of pushing rookies way too hard, way too fast

 

Kurt Angle.

 

He was sloppy as hell. Not only did he damn near kill himself fucking up the finish for the main event of WM, but he also damn near killed Bob Holly in a match on SD by dropping him on his head during a powerbomb.

 

So horribly sloppy that there's TWO whole examples of him hurting someone. One of which was himself. Yeah, that asshole. How dare he not be perfect and execute every single move without hurting anyone, ever?

 

TEST could do a friggin TKO properly.

 

I fail to see what that has to do with anything, as an F-5 is not a TKO. Two different, albeit similar, moves. And you gotta figure the F-5 is the harder one to pull off, since with a TKO, all you really have to do is get buddy's leg off your shoulder and hit a Diamond Cutter, whereas with an F-5, he's gotta throw the guy up and over his own head.

[The Buzz 0]

He had two good matches on smackdown I remember, one with Rey Mysterio, the other with Chris Benoit.

 

The Eddie Guerrero match was a classic for me, and Lesnar did a great job holding his end up. Brock Lesnar's hell in a cell with the Undertaker was another great piece of work. Other then that, I just watched him in the same vein as a guy like Goldberg or Ultimate Warrior. His stuff was intense and fun to watch.

[The Amazing Rando 0]

Lesnar had no charisma

 

Bullshit.

 

I'm not gonna claim the guy was some charisma God, but to claim he had none? That's asinine. If he had no charisma, how the fuck did he get *cheered* when wrestling the Rock, and Lesnar was the heel?

 

 

 

It was known to a good bit of people that the Rock was leaving after Summerslam. It took place in Uniondale, and a good chunk of New York is known as a smarkish enough community to know that the Rock was leaving. And it's somewhat of a moot point anyway, since I saw just as much cheering for the Rock as I did for Lesnar, but Rocky leaving is a good reason why Brock was catching some cheers.

 

I cheered for him that night, partially because I was surrounded by blind Rock fans, and partially because I knew he was going to win and could not wait to see the look on everyone's face around me.

 

 

You will have to admit, however, that his "jobber killer" days was not exactly the most charismatic guy. I think he really came into his own at the beginning of 2004. Sure, it was pretty much too late at that point, but he was really starting to get good at playing an upper-card/main event monster heel with an ego.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

--He was sloppy as hell. Not only did he damn near kill himself fucking up the finish for the main event of WM, but he also damn near killed Bob Holly in a match on SD by dropping him on his head during a powerbomb.

The botch at WM was more down to Lesnar being nervous/tired rather than him being a sloppy worker. The deal with Holly was all Holly's fault because he tried to sandbag Lesnar for some stupid reason.

 

I think Lesnar gets more flack than he deserves, primarily because he did walk away from wrestling and wrestling fans are quick to turn on someone who does that. Lesnar certainly deserves to get knocked for not 'making someone' on the way out, but with the way some people rip into the guy, you'd think he'd committed mass murder. Lesnar was a pretty good big man worker. He wasn't the most charismatic of performers, but he definitely developed some decent charisma around 2003/4 mark. His offense was solid to great, and he could definitely play the part of the monster. I think Lesnar gets underrated more than he gets overrated, but he's far from this poor, sloppy worker than some make him out to be.

[Youth N Asia 0]

I liked Brock. You knew as soon as you saw him he'd be champ within a year or so. Show squashing him at Survivor really knocked him down a peg for me and it was hard to care about him after that...and don't get me started on the face turn...

[Golgo 13 0]

I didn't like him much at first but I eventually came around on him and really wish his heart was still into wrestling. He really had the potential to be the next big star. I never did hold it against him when he left to try football. There's no use sticking around in a place you don't want to be if you're not into it. He seems sincere regarding everything and although I was disappointed with the NJPW situation I still wish the guy the best. The way he beat Vince at his own game months earlier during the comeback talks when everyone thought he was just a big dumb idiot for leaving to try the NFL was a stroke of genius, so that negates the NJPW thing in my book.

 

I started loving the guy during his heel runs where he basically turned psycho. 2003/2004? I guess. That's when he really came into his own and you started to see the charisma and mic skills, neither of which are great, but fit together with his character perfectly. He got pushed too hard/too fast? Pft. When you have a freak like Lesnar who was like lightning in a bottle you have to capitalize. For as short of time as he was there and with as little training he had I thought he had an absurd number of memorable matches. I can't hold his 'sloppiness' against him either; I consider all instances from Holly to Bernard to his own SSP to be justifiable or of the freak accident sort.

 

Lesnar certainly deserves to get knocked for not 'making someone' on the way out,

 

Eddie? I always considered that his big job.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

The deal with Holly was all Holly's fault because he tried to sandbag Lesnar for some stupid reason.

 

I still don't fathom that. He had Holly up for the powerbomb. If Holly sandbagged, Lesnar wouldn't have been able to get him up in that position in the first place. He had him up, then he sort of hesitated, and then he dropped him on his head.

 

I'm not trying to blame Lesnar or anything for it, but I don't see the sandbagging thing.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The deal with Holly was all Holly's fault because he tried to sandbag Lesnar for some stupid reason.

 

I still don't fathom that. He had Holly up for the powerbomb. If Holly sandbagged, Lesnar wouldn't have been able to get him up in that position in the first place. He had him up, then he sort of hesitated, and then he dropped him on his head.

 

I'm not trying to blame Lesnar or anything for it, but I don't see the sandbagging thing.

Watch the move again. Halfway through the move, when Lesnar is bringing Holly up and Holly is just about parallel to the mat. Holly stiffens up and goes deadweight.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

But that makes no sense whatsoever. Hardcore Holly is not fucking retarted. He knew exactly what would've happened had he done that deliberately. And why would he sangbag *then*, and not when he was still on his feet, when he coulda make Brock look like a total ass, assuming that was his intention?

 

It looks to me like it was more an accident of timing. He gets up, and then Holly, thinking Brock is gonna drop him sooner then he does, gets ready for it, which shifts his weight, and since Brock *wasn't* dropping him at the time, it fucked everything all up.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

But that makes no sense whatsoever. Hardcore Holly is not fucking retarted. He knew exactly what would've happened had he done that deliberately. And why would he sangbag *then*, and not when he was still on his feet, when he coulda make Brock look like a total ass, assuming that was his intention?

Remember you're dealing with a guy who likes to play the tough man with people he thinks he can bully. By sandbagging midway through the move, when Lesnar doesn't know it's going to happen, it doesn't give Lesnar chance to compensate and it's more likely to make him look like he's sloppy. If Holly had sandbagged Lesnar at the beginning, Lesnar would have known something was going on and could have tried something else.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

But again, Holly is not fucking retarted. He would've known full well that, if he sandbagged at that time, he would've ended up hanging upside down, and Brock would've had no choice but to drop him on his head. I don't think Holly was so intent on making Lesnar look like an ass that we was willing to risk his own career/life to do so.

 

Had he sandbagged at the start, sure Lesnar could've tried something else, but it also would've made it look like Lesnar couldn't even powerbomb Hardcore Holly, which would've made Lesnar look like a dick and accomplished just what Holly was trying to do.

 

Honest question: Has anyone within the biz who would actually know, ever said that Holly sandbagging is what happened? I've only heard people talk about it, but I've never heard of it coming from a reliable source.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

By: Dave Scherer

9/13/2002 11:52:15 AM

As you probably noticed during Smackdown last night, there was a pretty nasty spot in the Brock Lesnar vs. Hardcore Holly match where Brock dropped Holly on the head during a powerbomb. There was talk backstage that Holly wasn't selling enough for the champ early on, but I don't know if the two were related. A few people there described it to me as "Bob being Bob".

 

If definitely appeared that they were working very snug at times during the match. Looking at the move, it didn't look like Holly got up the way he should have for the move. Lesnar is strong as an ox but if a guy doesn't help on a spot like that, bad things can, and do, happen. A lot of people thought Brock was nice about things anyway, because he respects the senior members of the locker room. But Holly was lucky, in everyone's opinion, that Brock didn't snap.

 

WK: I was at Target Center and witnessed the Holly vs. Lesnar match, and saw the breakdown in communication between the two during their match first hand. Here is what was reported last year in the Torch Newsletter (cover dated Oct. 5, 2002):

 

Bob Holly is taking time off as the effects of a head injury suffered in a Smackdown match against Brock Lesnar has gotten worse. During the Sept. 10 match in Minneapolis, Brock dropped Holly on his head during a botched powerbomb attempt. Holly was knocked out briefly, and the ref bent over to check on him, but Holly ended up signalling that he was able to continue the match. He continued to wrestle after that, but began to show signs of post�concussion syndrome. He also has been suffering from other head and neck pain and possible neurological problems, and as a result has been taken off the road until he is further evaluated. "He just hasn't looked like himself lately," says one colleague. "But Bob is the type to ignore pain and work through an injury as long as he can."

 

The Brock vs. Holly match has been the subject of quite a bit of locker room talk since the incident where he landed on his head wasn't an accident. Brock seemed to "give up" on lifting Holly during the move, or else Holly seemed to be "sandbagging" Brock during the lift, not cooperating in an attempt to make Brock look "weak." Either way, it resulted in what could be a long�term serious injury for Holly. Holly is WWE management's "go�to guy" when they want to initiate a new wrestler into the ranks and test his threshold for pain. Holly is respected by management and fellow wrestlers for being tough himself, and also tough on new wrestlers, but knowing exactly how far is too far to take such initiations. He lays in the chops and gets rough with the young wrestlers, but doesn't do anything to cause injury. Young wrestlers are evaluated (all of this is off record and not part of any open, formal process, of course) on how they react to the treatment.

 

Holly has denied to others that he had any intent to make Brock look bad, but other wrestlers who watched the match believe that Holly was attempting to teach Brock a lesson. "Bob seemed to be trying to send Brock a message that it takes two to tango, and without the help of his opponents, he wouldn't look nearly as good," says one wrestler. There doesn't seem to be a feeling that Brock intentionally hurt Holly, but instead the feeling is he just didn't know how to react, and thus when he let go of Holly, he did so out of confusion more than spite.

 

[The Metal Maniac 0]

You do realize that neither of those actually states for sure that the incident was caused by Holly sandbagging, right?

 

There was talk backstage that Holly wasn't selling enough for the champ early on, but I don't know if the two were related.

 

Brock seemed to "give up" on lifting Holly during the move, or else Holly seemed to be "sandbagging" Brock during the lift, not cooperating in an attempt to make Brock look "weak." Either way, it resulted in what could be a long�term serious injury for Holly.

 

Lots of maybe's and probably's, but no "I know what happened", save for Holly, who's word I wouldn't take at face value on the issue anyway.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Either one or both men slipped up on the move or Holly sandbagged him. Given the odds, and Holly's rep, I know which I'd place my money on.

[Fökai 0]

Brock was in no position to be sloppy or uncooperative at that point in his career.

 

It's really easy to be cooperative on a powerbomb when the other guy is as strong as Lesnar was. This is an instance of Holly sandbagging Lesnar halfway through the move, expecting to be dropped onto his back in a really pathetic manner.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

I still can't fathom why anyone on earth would think "Ah-ha, now I'll sandbag, and point MY HEAD TOWARDS THE GROUND, and he'll drop me on my back," or why he'd even jump for the powerbomb if he intended to make Brock look like a dick, but whatever. I've at least learned that no one ever actually outright said that's what happened, so it's a lot of speculation. That works for me.

 

I didn't mean to take this right off topic though. Brock Lesnar kicked ass, and I miss him. Though I am interested in seeing what he's capable of in MMA.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

It's not a hard concept to grasp. You cooperate in the partial lift, to begin the sequence, then deadweight your body so Brock would look stupid for not being able to pick up a guy smaller than him, only it backfired as Lesnar just disposed of him on his head. (And in order to deadweight yourself, you shift your weight downward, which explains Holly pointing his body downward, including his head)

[Fökai 0]

You'd figure that Brock would've been punished somehow if it were any of his fault. There's no way that the powerbomb could've been seen by the office as accidental - either it was an intentional drop by Lesnar, or it's Holly sandbagging.

 

And yeah, Holly was pointing his head downward, as if to drop himself intentionally. I don't know why anyone would be dumb enough to try that while upside down, but he definitely did.

[LooseCannon25 0]

I liked Brock alot. The guy could mat wrestle, use the power moves, and was also very quick and agile for a man his sized. He moved very smoothly in the ring. His f-5, triple powerbomb, sto, and 2 handed chokeslam off his opponents failed sunset flip were all ruthless looking.

 

Holly definitely sandbagged that powerbomb. You could see him drop his head and weight in mid move. The only guy i remember him hurting legit was A-Train when he f-5ed him on his neck.

[bob_barron 0]

Brock teaching Bob Holly a lesson for sandbagging him is one of the greatest moments in wrestling. That was a nasty match too

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Brock Lesnar was one of my favorite wrestlers, I'm not ashamed to say it, and I was sad to see him go. He was definitely one of the best big guys I ever saw in the ring. He had the right look and his theme music matched him perfectly. His strength was just amazing and at times downright scary (running powerbomb on the Big Show for example). Say what you want, but I loved his monster heel run where he would just randomly beat the crap out of people. I miss the guy and I think if he stayed, he would have at least still be in high profile matches if not the WWE Champion. I wish he would come back even it was just him working as a part-timer or for special occasions.

 

And yeah sure, people like to shit on him for getting pushed to the moon, but his time as a headliner saw him have a lot of good matches:

 

Vs. RVD, Vengeance 2002

 

Vs. Hulk Hogan, SD Aug 2002

 

Vs. The Rock, SummerSlam 2002

 

Vs. The Undertaker, No Mercy 2002

 

Vs. Edge, Rebellion 2002

 

Vs. Rey Mysterio, SD Halloween episode 2002

 

Vs. Kurt Angle, WM XIX and SSlam 2003

 

Vs. John Cena, Backlash 2003 (Not a 5 star classic, but a lot better than people give it credit for considering this main event match consisted of both guy being "rookies")

 

Vs. The Big Show, JD 2003

 

Vs. Chris Benoit, SD December 2003

 

Vs. Eddie Guerrero, NWO 2004

 

Re: Holly

 

Bob Holly's a fucking asshole. He's always trying to do that veteran tough guy bullshit. "Oh, this new guy is getting a push. I think I'll teach him a lesson because I'm HARDCORE!" I didn't feel sorry for him one bit. He got what was coming to him. Besides, wasn't Lesnar suffering from the flu that night? That would be another valid reason for the drop as Brock wouldn't have the strength he normally would.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Brock was a real phenom, a word that gets way overused. Brock was legit, though. He could go in the ring, had a good presence, and had some great matches. I would love to see him back in WWE at some point.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

I didn't realise how good and needed he was until he was gone. Now I'm begging for his return, he's way better then some of the guys in his place.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

If he would have continued to develop his personality and heel character he could have become a major star (and when I say major, I mean crossover appeal). I had a lot of friends who had given up on wrestling who were legit into this guy in late 2002. The face run really hurt him and the momentum he had built, but this guy was an absolute freak in the ring. He seemed to appeal to the same fanbase that liked Goldberg (i.e. legit athletes with freakish strength and ability). It's sad that he didn't stick around.

[reign 0]

I was and still am a big fan of Brock Lesnar (although he needs to ditch the red trunks and boots)...he would still be main eventing had he stuck around and I hope that he makes it back soon as I'd rather watch Lesnar every day than watch Batista once...

[King Kamala 0]

Brock Lesnar is one of the only (hell maybe the only) guy I've seen since I've started watching wrestling in late '93 that immedietely had "it". I saw him wrestle before his TV debut at a house show against Crash Holly and he easily got the biggest reaction I've ever seen for a guy who hadn't been on TV.

 

Him coming back to to WWE (Or TNA if they had a snowball's chance in getting him which they don't) would be about one of the only things would get me to start watching regularly again