Approaching the 10th anniversary of the...

[Bix 0]

But how far does "reasonable" creative control go?

The idea was that "reasonable" meant Vince & Bret had to agree

[zappafrank 0]

Why didn't Bret listen to any of these guys like Vader or UT to be on the lookout?

 

Cuz Bret actually was in on it, duh.

 

(well, I mean, it's *possible*...)

[cabbageboy 0]

The more time goes on the less sympathy I have for anyone in this thing. When it happened I certainly sided with Bret as nearly everyone did but as the facts came out I started thinking about it more. Why not just job the fucking belt and leave? Bret didn't want to job to Shawn in Canada...who died and made him pope? Hell, Montreal is in Quebec and we all know about Quebec's secession notions over the years. It's not like the show was in Calgary and Vince wanted Bret to do a 3 minute squash. It's like if The Patriot had said "I am an American hero from Columbia, SC but I refuse to do a job for Shawn Michaels in Denver, CO."

 

Bret was suffering from one of the biggest cases of hubris I have ever seen. What I think Vince understood was that for Shawn to be the ultra hated heel asshole he needed to be he HAD to beat Bret in Canada at a major PPV like Survivor Series. Bret forfeiting the belt made no sense. Bret losing in a 3 way without being pinned is a copout. As far as the idea of reasonable creative control, to me it's not reasonable for a wrestler leaving a company to refuse to job a title to whomever the booker wants. Bret acted like doing a job in Canada would have forever killed his drawing power there. In reality if he jobbed via some screwy run in from DX and then went to WCW it would have been forgotten in about 2 weeks and he would have still been insanely over whenever WCW went to Canada.

[Jingus 0]

Let's not forget now that it wasn't just a "won't lose in Canada" deal. It was, very specifically, a "if you MUST job me to that fucking piece of shit who I hate more than any other human being Shawn Michaels, at least don't do it in my own country where they see me as a legit hero". Bret's stated many times that he would've been perfectly fine with losing it in Montreal to anyone else but Shawn, and that he would've done the job to Shawn if it had been in America. This was just a pure case of Vince getting childishly angry when he had someone disagreeing with him, which let's face it is something we've seen many times over the years.

 

The final word is that Bret had the creative control clause, so Vince had no right to do what he did and the whole thing was illegal anyway.

[Boxer 0]

So, 10 years ago where were you all after this just happened?

 

Me, I saw Raw the next night and saw that "Bret's last match" survivor series promo and found out then. Didn't have the internet back then so that's how I found out.

[Jericholic82 0]

happy anniversary.

 

 

I guess in hindsight they could have had Shamrock beat Bret on raw for the title (remember that title match when bret tapped out with no ref?), still had the shawn-bret grudge match at the ppv, then shawn could have won the title on raw or at the dx ppv

 

where was I? I was 14 years old and in my sophmore year of HS. that day I was going to order the ppv, but we didnt for some reason. not having a computer at the time, I tuned into raw where they said bret was gone, and the match ending was "controversial", then the bret screwed bret interview the next week. I didnt really get the whole story till I got online access at home in 98

[Darth Vader 0]

I could listen to all PPV's for free back then. PPV was just another channel and the cable company would just scramble the picture if you didn't subscribe but the audio was fine. The porn channel would somtimes come in perfectly, it was great. I really had no idea what had happened just that Shawn won and the PPV ended abruptly, it was real bizarre.

[cabbageboy 0]

But still, yeah it sucks to lose to Shawn in Canada. Be a professional during the match and go out and job the belt and leave.

 

Know why Bret wouldn't ever sue? 1. As noted before, there's no way he could 100% prove that what happened was legit and not the planned finish. Yes, they said stuff on camera for the Wrestling With Shadows documentary, but then Vince and Co. could just say they were working the documentary crew. 2. It's too hard to define what "reasonable creative control" is. The real mindfuck here is that Vince could justify his actions by saying that Bret wasn't being reasonable at all trying to dictate who he would lose to and where when he was leaving the company...and thus Bret had violated his own contract.

[Boxer 0]

I think Bret was also concerned with how HHH/HBK played Bulldog in England. Remember that? One Night Only in front of the UK crowd, Bulldog jobs the title, even though that was not the plan. HHH and HBK succeed changing the plans saying how it'll create heat for them. Remember the mess after the match? HBK's promo on Bulldog's dying sister? Looking back, that was a pretty brutal scene. Now picture that but with Bret and Shawn and in Montreal. Do you REALLY think the crowd could handle that? I mean it was a pretty rowdy crowd already that night in Montreal.

[CBright7831 0]

If you watch after Earl gave the signal for the bell, notice there are a few fans in the audience that were about to jump the barricade but were held back by security or other fans.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

I'm trying to remeber the timeline, but word did leak on the net that Bret would be gone heading into that weekend. IIRC there even was word on Nitro that week about a "Major Announcement" coming the next week. (Fummy aside, Nitro opened that show with the entire nWo coming to the ring with the Canadian flags and the announcers were wondering if the nWo had took over Canada)

 

So there was knowledge on the interent that this would most likely be Bret's last match, with perhaps a "farewell" apperance on Raw the next night.

[Diamonddust 0]

I'm trying to remeber the timeline, but word did leak on the net that Bret would be gone heading into that weekend. IIRC there even was word on Nitro that week about a "Major Announcement" coming the next week. (Fummy aside, Nitro opened that show with the entire nWo coming to the ring with the Canadian flags and the announcers were wondering if the nWo had took over Canada)

 

So there was knowledge on the interent that this would most likely be Bret's last match, with perhaps a "farewell" apperance on Raw the next night.

 

If I remember correctly, the Nitro with the NWO coming out waving the Canadian flags happened the night after Survivor Series. However, you are correct... the news about Bret leaving broke early in the week before Survivor Series.

[pappajacks 0]

If you watch after Earl gave the signal for the bell, notice there are a few fans in the audience that were about to jump the barricade but were held back by security or other fans.

 

I realized that too. Fans were ready to storm the ring to either attack HBK or Vince. The security personnel did a fine job to avoid a possibly embarrassing situation for the WWE.

 

If just a few fans were able to get to the ring, then there would have been a spill over effect and the rest of the crowd would have joined in.

[cabbageboy 0]

I was thinking about the Bulldog/HBK match as I was writing that previous post. There are some key differences however:

 

1. Bulldog was considered an invincible guy in the UK whereas he wasn't in the USA. Bret wasn't really ever an invincible guy in Canada.

2. Bulldog wasn't (in theory) leaving the company in Sept. 97, but Bret was in Nov.

 

In other words, the loss was much worse for Bulldog than it was for Bret. Had Bulldog stayed in the WWF his European drawing power would have never been the same after that Michaels match. Bret was leaving anyway, and I doubt once he got to WCW than anyone would have given a shit. Hell Jeff Jarrett jobbed the IC belt to Chyna before going to WCW and nobody really cared about that when he showed up on Nitro the next night.

[Guest the_last_rites]

Girl enters a sex shop and asks for a vibrator.

 

The man says "Choose from our range on the wall."

 

She says "I'll take the red one."

 

The man replies "That's a fire extinguisher."

[edgehead69 0]

Here's a trivial Question... How Many Times has the Montreal Incident been "Duplicated" afterwards

? (SS 1998, SNME 2006, etc.)

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Didn't WCW do it a couple times as well?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Didn't WCW do it a couple times as well?

Russo booked it as the finish to Bret vs. Goldberg at Starrcade in 1999.

[Diamonddust 0]

Didn't WCW do it a couple times as well?

Russo booked it as the finish to Bret vs. Goldberg at Starrcade in 1999.

 

It was also referenced in the Sting/Hogan match at Starrcade '97.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yeah, those were the two instances I was thinking off hand.

[Boxer 0]

Stone Cold vs. Chris Benoit, Raw May 2001.

 

Shawn Michaels vs. HHH vs. Benoit Backlash 2004. They practically re-did Montreal with Earl and Shawn.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Has TNA ever done one? I'd swear I remember Jarrett being involved in a Montreal rip-off finish at some point.