Well Known Wrestlers Without Well Known Matches?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

The chances of Savage getting the WWF title off of DiBiase would have been nil, because the plan was for whoever won the title at WM IV to drop the title at WM V to Hogan. DiBiase or Savage, it didn't really matter, because the title change back to Hogan was planned before he had even lost the belt in the first place.

 

I've often heard that if Dibiase got the belt at Mania, Savage would have won it at the first Summerslam and the entire Megapowers angle would have been kept intact. Is that something you've heard as well or just internet hearsay?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Well, let's see. Honky was the Intercontinental Champion and he goes to a meeting in Connecticut to talk about dropping the belt to Savage, and the whole conversation is between Vince McMahon, Randy Savage, and Elizabeth. The finish is hitting the flying elbow in the center of the ring and a three count. Savage picks up Liz on his shoulder and walks around the ring with her, which seems to be quite ridiculous for winning the Intercontinental Title (again), but nevertheless.

 

The genesis of the feud was Honky Tonk Man shoving Elizabeth to the mat in order to hit Savage with a guitar. Since she was part of the feud, it would have made sense to have her involved in Honky's defeat.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

So Vince finally turns to Honky and Jimmy Hart and tells Jimmy that he'll pull Honky out of the ring and they'll go to the back where Honky "won't be seen again." So Honky asks what this means for him career-wise, and Vince says we'll rebuild you. You rebuild an Intercontinental Champion? Even if he only became champion because of the whole Butch Reed situation, they could have taken the belt off of him shortly after that. They chose not to. Honky drew, and Vince is going to "rebuild" him after killing his character on national network television? That wasn't part of Honky's deal, and at this time stars weren't jobbing on national television because they were running two or three shows at a time.

 

Hasn't the whole Butch Reed thing been debunked on many occassions? That was a story that Honky and Hulk came up with to make themselves sound smart. Vince had planned to make Honky the I-C champ from the time he turned heel.

 

As for having his character killed on national television, isn't a competitive match with Macho better than jobbing in twenty seconds to Warrior? If he was so against doing a big job early in his reign, why did he go out like a bitch after they'd spent 18 months building him up?

[Jingus 0]

What the hell did Butch Reed supposedly have to do with the Steamboat/HTM title switch? As I recall, Steamboat asked for time off to be with his new kid soon after winning the belt, which pissed Vince off since he's a chronic workaholic and expects all his employees to be the same. So Honkey got the belt.

 

And yes, Savage was supposed to win the IC belt and Dibiase was supposed to win the WMIV tournament, that's pretty well-documented. But I'm not sure exactly why everything got changed the way it did, "Savage flipped out over not having a belt" always sounded kinda suspect to me.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

What the hell did Butch Reed supposedly have to do with the Steamboat/HTM title switch? As I recall, Steamboat asked for time off to be with his new kid soon after winning the belt, which pissed Vince off since he's a chronic workaholic and expects all his employees to be the same. So Honkey got the belt.

 

There was a long-standing rumor (courtery of a certain useless moron) that Butch Reed was the original choice to beat Steamboat for the belt. As the story goes, he no showed the event and Hulk suggested to Vince that they use Honky instead and the rest is history.

 

It's a bullshit story, though.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What the hell did Butch Reed supposedly have to do with the Steamboat/HTM title switch? As I recall, Steamboat asked for time off to be with his new kid soon after winning the belt, which pissed Vince off since he's a chronic workaholic and expects all his employees to be the same. So Honkey got the belt.

By all accounts, including HTM himself, Reed was meant to get the IC belt but didn't because he couldn't be found.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

What the hell did Butch Reed supposedly have to do with the Steamboat/HTM title switch? As I recall, Steamboat asked for time off to be with his new kid soon after winning the belt, which pissed Vince off since he's a chronic workaholic and expects all his employees to be the same. So Honkey got the belt.

By all accounts, including HTM himself, Reed was meant to get the IC belt but didn't because he couldn't be found.

 

Bingo. Honky said in a shoot interview that he only got the opportunity because of Butch Reed.

 

Besides, if McMahon had intended to make Honky the IC champion all along, wouldn't Honky say that? I think it makes him look better. The Butch Reed story makes him look bad.

 

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

So Vince finally turns to Honky and Jimmy Hart and tells Jimmy that he'll pull Honky out of the ring and they'll go to the back where Honky "won't be seen again." So Honky asks what this means for him career-wise, and Vince says we'll rebuild you. You rebuild an Intercontinental Champion? Even if he only became champion because of the whole Butch Reed situation, they could have taken the belt off of him shortly after that. They chose not to. Honky drew, and Vince is going to "rebuild" him after killing his character on national network television? That wasn't part of Honky's deal, and at this time stars weren't jobbing on national television because they were running two or three shows at a time.

 

Hasn't the whole Butch Reed thing been debunked on many occassions? That was a story that Honky and Hulk came up with to make themselves sound smart. Vince had planned to make Honky the I-C champ from the time he turned heel.

 

As for having his character killed on national television, isn't a competitive match with Macho better than jobbing in twenty seconds to Warrior? If he was so against doing a big job early in his reign, why did he go out like a bitch after they'd spent 18 months building him up?

 

Because they weren't going to rebuild his character after jobbing to the Ultimate Warrior. First of all, that was at a PPV whereas the Macho Man match was going to be on national TV. I think it was a special Saturday Night's Main Event (might have been held on a Thursday, I forget the details). Honky says 30-35 million people would have seen it.

 

Second, Honky says that Vince talked to him about the Ultimate Warrior match and asked him how to do it. Honky's a professional and he's got a good mind for the business, and he thought (correctly) that the best way to put over the Ultimate Warrior as a wrecking machine was for him to beat the IC champion - who'd held the belt for the longest time of anybody - super fast. I've heard elsewhere that he wanted to do it fast because he was worried about getting hurt, but I don't believe that because Honky did an entire program with the Ultimate Warrior after the match where he was trying to get the belt back, and I don't believe those were all 30-second squash matches.

 

So the two issues were: (a) going to rebuild the character after the Macho Man defeat, and (b) being on national TV instead of a pay per view. I don't think Honky would have minded losing the belt in such a manner at a house show either, for what it's worth.

 

But you see, when he lost to Warrior in 30 seconds, they made an entire program out of him trying to get it back. They didn't put him back on first match with Lanny Poffo and Special Delivery Jones like Honky says they were going to do to him after the Macho Man job.

 

As far as the whole "Hogan was going to beat DiBiase at WrestleMania V for the title" thing, I don't know about all of that. It just doesn't make sense. Why would McMahon putting the IC belt back on Savage be a huge push when he'd had the belt before? Within the context of what McMahon said he wanted to do starting with the Honky job on TV makes it seem very much like the goal was to make him WWF champion. I tend to believe the idea that DiBiase would lose the belt to Macho Man at another PPV, then the Mega Powers thing would go forward, and finally culminating in the WrestleMania V match that really went down.

 

If they really wanted to make DiBiase champion they should have just let him keep the belt when Andre gave it to him on SNME after WM III. That would have been a better program anyway, with DiBiase as the "illegitimate" champion, who could then go into WM IV and lose the belt to Savage. Now you have your continuity, whether Honky jobbed the IC belt to Savage (on TV or on a paper view) or not. Plus it's also a better booking than vacating the title after a controversial finish, which I have always felt to be quite lame (post-SNME with DiBiase and post-Tuesday in Texas when Hogan beat the Undertaker using the ash from the urn). Though at least in the latter case there was an issue of someone with creative control (Hogan) jobbing the title to someone else (Flair) involved that complicated the issue.

 

Remember that WM IV was considered a disappointment following WM III (though so would anything, probably). Is it possible that it would have been less disappointing with a better card that didn't include Greg Valentine, Don Muraco, One Man Gang, Dino Bravo, and Butch Reed competing for the WWF championship? I'm not trashing those wrestlers (okay, not some of them), but seriously, there were so many angles you could have booked leading up to WM IV if you had a traditional card rather than having a semi-final match where One Man Gang is trying to nail the Macho Man with Slick's cane. Remember that: the match that got Savage into the finals against DiBiase was a DQ. Man, that's some exciting wrestling.

 

(Note: I used to like watching WM IV on tape, but seriously - would DiBiase as the illegitimate, fraudulent champion going up against Randy Savage, who defeats him in the center of the ring with the flying elbow at WrestleMania, not be a much better booking than that tournament? Savage would have gotten so over as a face by doing that, without bullshit interference or double DQs to get Andre and Hogan out of the picture, which would have made his turn and the breakup of the Mega Powers for WM V all that much more exciting.)

[cabbageboy 0]

I am baffled at the whole DiBiase WM IV rumor about him originally winning the belt. My god that PPV had to be the War and Peace of pro wrestling....it lasted seemingly 5 hours. I can't seriously believe they would think of having the biggest heel in the tourney win the damn thing after an insanely long and exhausting PPV.

 

As far as HTM goes, bear in mind that the Warrior match was impromptu and so he could save face by saying he wasn't ready for Warrior, but was instead ready for Beefcake.

[The Buzz 0]

I don't know if we are talking about Mike Rotunda's entire career or just his IRS run, but his match with Sting over the tv title pretty much defined what Rotunda was in my opinion. I'm surprised how much I like Rotunda's NWA stuff compared to his WWF and WCW/nWo work.

Was this during his time with the Varsity Club? Those were good times.

 

 

I don't know if that exact match was during that time period as it's been awhile since I saw it. I do know I like his work during the Varsity Club and a little bit past it as well. He made Tom Zenk look like a million bucks at Halloween Havoc 88 I believe.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I am baffled at the whole DiBiase WM IV rumor about him originally winning the belt. My god that PPV had to be the War and Peace of pro wrestling....it lasted seemingly 5 hours. I can't seriously believe they would think of having the biggest heel in the tourney win the damn thing after an insanely long and exhausting PPV.

 

As far as HTM goes, bear in mind that the Warrior match was impromptu and so he could save face by saying he wasn't ready for Warrior, but was instead ready for Beefcake.

 

Again, it wasn't that Honky needed to be some sort of unbeatable character or anything. He lost a lot of matches because he was a GREAT heel. People bought tickets to see him get his ass kicked. When he was IC champ, he'd cheat all the time to beat his challengers. It just helped to build the heat around him.

 

If you wanted to get Warrior over, which the WWF absolutely did because Honky says McMahon told him when they were discussing that match for SummerSlam that Warrior was going to be booked as WWF champion soon, what's the best way to do it? Honky was absolutely right when he said that it had to be fast, and the idea that Warrior would be the one to come out and challenge him - he says he's never heard a pop louder than the one when Warrior's music hit at SummerSlam.

 

We look back on it now and remember Warrior for the squash on Honky at SummerSlam, for beating Hogan at WrestleMania, and for generally being an unstoppable force. Keep in mind though that before the SummerSlam match against Honky, Warrior did a program with (among other people) Andre the Giant in which he actually squashed Andre at least once and they had a scoop slam as a regular spot in their matches. So Warrior was already a force when he comes storming out at SummerSlam, but crushing Honky like that really helped him a lot.

 

As far as your point about saving face goes, that might make sense within the context of the program they did after SummerSlam where Honky tried to get the belt back. I don't know if they were on television with this or if it was just house shows, but it wouldn't surprise me if promos were cut about how Honky was going to get his belt back and, like you suggested, maybe wasn't ready/prepared for Warrior and it was unfair, etc.

 

Anyway, I agree with you about DiBiase winning the belt at the end of the WM IV tournament. That doesn't make much sense, does it? People would be pissed to sit through that whole tournament with garbage matches with the One Man Gang in the semi-finals (and I actually like OMG, though I think Akeem was a hilarious and awesome gimmick) and then have DiBiase beat Savage in the finals. And surely that's how it would have had to end, because what other babyface was going to make it to the finals? You gonna book Hogan to get beat by DiBiase at WrestleMania? No... The only other babyface in that tournament who was over in any major way was Steamboat. I guess they could have done a DiBiase-Steamboat final, which I bet would have been an awesome match.

 

In any case, if the WWF wanted to give the belt to DiBiase they should have just let him keep it when Andre gave it to him on SNME. I'll say it again. There is no point in vacating that belt if you've got the guy it's on booked to win it back anyway at the end of a ridiculously long tournament a year later. Not when he's a heel anyway. It'd be decent booking if he was a babyface who got screwed out of the belt and had to go through the gauntlet so to speak in order to get back to the "big show" and win the belt back. That'd be pretty cool, actually.

[CBright7831 0]

Raven had a lot of matches I liked, but I'm trying to remember if he's had a match that everyone considers classic. Would some of his work with Dreamer in ECW be considered classic? Possibly the stuff with Benoit and DDP in WCW?

His match w/ DDP and Benoit @ Uncensored was a MOTY candidate.

[cabbageboy 0]

I'm pretty sure the Warrior/Andre feud wasn't until the later half of 1989, after Warrior had beaten Rude for the IC title. Warrior was dicking around for most of 1988 feuding with lower Heenan Family guys like Hercules and such. I thought there was a funny comment on the Warrior DVD where Heenan said Warrior wasn't grateful to Andre for putting him over. Bear in mind Andre couldn't even beat Jake Roberts circa 1989.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I'm pretty sure the Warrior/Andre feud wasn't until the later half of 1989, after Warrior had beaten Rude for the IC title. Warrior was dicking around for most of 1988 feuding with lower Heenan Family guys like Hercules and such. I thought there was a funny comment on the Warrior DVD where Heenan said Warrior wasn't grateful to Andre for putting him over. Bear in mind Andre couldn't even beat Jake Roberts circa 1989.

 

You might be right about that. I was having trouble finding a date on the Andre-Warrior matches.

 

I do remember from the videos that Andre was wearing his blue outfit, which I think I read somewhere else on these forums started at/after WrestleMania V. That, of course, being the same PPV where Rude beat Warrior. I don't know if Warrior was doing a program with Rude between WrestleMania and SummerSlam, but if so, you would be right and these matches would have taken place between August 28, 1989, when Warrior beat Rude for the belt, and April 1, 1990, when Warrior became WWF champion. The only reason I put April 1, 1990, as the cut-off date is because Andre turned babyface at WM IV and wouldn't have been managed by Heenan during the program with Warrior.

 

So, in short, I'm an idiot and ignore what I said about Andre putting Warrior over prior to Honky jobbing the IC belt to him.

[AntiLeaf33 0]

Brian Pillman comes to mind. I can think of a lot of great fueds and angles he has been in, but I'm not thinking of any well known singles matches he's been in

[eiker_ir 0]

Brian Pillman comes to mind. I can think of a lot of great fueds and angles he has been in, but I'm not thinking of any well known singles matches he's been in

 

 

vs. liger?

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Brian Pillman comes to mind. I can think of a lot of great fueds and angles he has been in, but I'm not thinking of any well known singles matches he's been in

 

I remember Sid Vicious damn near breaking his neck with a powerbomb inside the cage at Wargames 91. Does that count? Not a singles match, so I guess not.

[AntiLeaf33 0]

Brian Pillman comes to mind. I can think of a lot of great fueds and angles he has been in, but I'm not thinking of any well known singles matches he's been in

 

 

vs. liger?

 

Great match? Yes

Well known? Afraid not

[AntiLeaf33 0]

Brian Pillman comes to mind. I can think of a lot of great fueds and angles he has been in, but I'm not thinking of any well known singles matches he's been in

 

I remember Sid Vicious damn near breaking his neck with a powerbomb inside the cage at Wargames 91. Does that count? Not a singles match, so I guess not.

 

Thats the thing with Pillman, he has lots of great moments, but in terms of people saying"I loved that match with Pillman and ----" he just doesn't have that card up his sleve

[The Buzz 0]

His match with Jushin Liger in the early 90s in the match that I always think of for Pillman, and still do to this day. I don't if any others felt that way growing up, but that was his best match for me. I also enjoyed the match with Luger at Halloween Havoc 88 or 89(?) that I saw recently.

 

Edit: Never mind it's already been posted.

[The Buzz 0]

Chris Jericho comes to mind for me as someone with tons of good matches, but for some reason I can't think of one match that sticks out above the rest? Can anyone else? I may be missing something obvious, but I don't remember his world title wins being great matches. Good but not great.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Brian Pillman comes to mind. I can think of a lot of great fueds and angles he has been in, but I'm not thinking of any well known singles matches he's been in

 

I remember Sid Vicious damn near breaking his neck with a powerbomb inside the cage at Wargames 91. Does that count? Not a singles match, so I guess not.

 

Thats the thing with Pillman, he has lots of great moments, but in terms of people saying"I loved that match with Pillman and ----" he just doesn't have that card up his sleve

 

I was just being an ass. I don't like Brian Pillman much in any case.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The Pillman-Liger match is VERY well known to anyone who was a fan in that era.

[Downhome 0]

The Pillman-Liger match is VERY well known to anyone who was a fan in that era.

 

Yep, that's the truth.

 

I don't know why, but the first DiBiase match I usually think of is the SS match where Taker debuted, and it came down to DiBiase vs. Bret Hart at the end (pretty damn good for what it was). After that:

 

-DiBiase vs. Virgil WM 7, Summerslam

-DiBiase/IRS vs. Hogan/Brutus WM 9

-DiBiase/Rhodes feud

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Some of the matches I most associate with Dibiase are Royal Rumbles. 1989 with DiBiase buying #30, and 1990 with DiBiase going 30+ minutes.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The matches that immediately spring to mind with DiBiase are his run with Savage right after Savage won the WWF title. DiBiase and Savage had excellent chemistry and the matches were right at the **** level, with the highlight probably being their cage match at MSG when a fan climbed the cage as Virgil and DiBiase were trying to prevent Savage from escaping. Even though they don't do anything crazy, it almost makes me wince whenever DiBiase does his trademark backwards rolling bump; when you know he had to have done that bump almost every match he's in, it's easy to see where his neck problems were undoubtedly exasperated.

 

DiBiase's run with Roberts also produced some great matches.

[Jericholic82 0]

Chris Jericho comes to mind for me as someone with tons of good matches, but for some reason I can't think of one match that sticks out above the rest? Can anyone else? I may be missing something obvious, but I don't remember his world title wins being great matches. Good but not great.

I think of his series with Benoit in wwe, specifically the submission match at Judgment Day 2000, and the ladder match at rumble 01, plus his matches with rock at no mercy 01 especially

 

but maybe you're right

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Chris Jericho comes to mind for me as someone with tons of good matches, but for some reason I can't think of one match that sticks out above the rest? Can anyone else? I may be missing something obvious, but I don't remember his world title wins being great matches. Good but not great.

His title win over Rock at No Mercy was MOTY quality before they screwed it up with Stephanie doing a run-in.

[Diamonddust 0]

The Pillman-Liger match is VERY well known to anyone who was a fan in that era.

 

Plus they met again on the first match ever shown on Nitro.

[JerryvonKramer 0]

Now DiBiase has always been my all time favourite wrestler, so I need to stick up for him a bit here. For much of his WWF tenure, he was carrying people like Hogan and Warrior to half-decent, watchable matches rather than wrestling ***** classics. But he did have some very solid ****+ matches. I've picked out 3 of his best:

 

1. March 7, 1988, SNME, Ted DiBiase vs. Randy Savage - they must have wrestled each other about 100 times in 1988 and every match at least a **** affair. One that stands out is the cage match where an idiot from the crowd hated DiBiase so much he leaped onto the cage and tried to hit Virgil!! However, I've gone for one of their electric SNME matches.

 

2. April 24, 1990 - Prime Time, Ted DiBiase vs. Shawn Michaels (found on WWF's Hottest Matches VHS)

 

Can't find it online unfortunately, HBK was still with the Rockers but was testing the waters in singles competition. This match is excellent until the screwy finish. Ted brings out the best in the young Michaels, and they put on a wrestling clinic. Really really good stuff in an era when matches of this calibre were a rarity in WWF.

 

3. April 27, 1991 - SNME Ted DiBiase vs. Bret Hart

 

A terrific match which has everything but a decent finish. This is what was teased at the terrific end to the Survivor Series '90 match (Million Dollar Team vs. Dusty Rhodes's team). Like with Shawn, Vince is testing Bret out against a real world class heel to see how he might get over as a main eventer. Scott Keith gave it ****. Just shows what happens when you put two great workers in a ring together.

 

I'll also give a mention to DiBiase's 10 minute challenge match with a green-as-hell Dustin Rhodes.