EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2007 It occurs to me that David Ortiz, right now has a stronger HOF case than Jim Rice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2007 Raines and Rice compared to the Hall of Fame LFers. http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/shareit/tC7J Note Raines high up on the list. Rice shows highly, if you think of Heinie Manush as your ideal HOFer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brett Favre 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2007 David Ortiz should definitely be in the HOF. I don't buy the argument that he wasn't great enough for a number of years. For the last 4 seasons he's been legendary in terms of what he's done for a franchise, in important in game situations, and as a face of baseball. He has the numbers, and the postseason success. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest My Pal, the Tortoise Report post Posted December 28, 2007 Longevity is important to me, and I don't know if just four years is enough. If he gives us two more years of this, then sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 28, 2007 David Ortiz should definitely be in the HOF. I don't buy the argument that he wasn't great enough for a number of years. For the last 4 seasons he's been legendary in terms of what he's done for a franchise, in important in game situations, and as a face of baseball. He has the numbers, and the postseason success. He's got the Hall of Fame peak. Dave Parker though had a five year stretch where he was just as great, and he's not close to the Hall. And Parker led his team to a World Series title as well, and hit .342 in the 1979 postseason. If these are the best years of Ortiz's career, that's Hall of Fame quality. But he has to back it up for a few years yet. Let's see how Ortiz's prime stacks up. http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/shareit/bDgf It's great, but it's not transcendent. You have a handful of guys like Dick Allen who had great peaks but fizzled. What stands out though is that Ortiz, unlike Allen or Albert Belle, is immensely likeable. Also, Ortiz is dominant in MVP voting. I think that's the #1 predictor of future Hall of Fame viability. The next couple years will be telling, as players of Ortiz's build generally do not age well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vampiro69 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 Remember when he threw the ball into the dirt on a routine throw to first base during the Yankees/Red Sox series in the 1999 playoff series. My favorite was when he threw the ball into the crowd at Yankee Stadium and hit Keith Olberman's mom in the face. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NYankees Report post Posted December 30, 2007 David Ortiz should definitely be in the HOF. I don't buy the argument that he wasn't great enough for a number of years. For the last 4 seasons he's been legendary in terms of what he's done for a franchise, in important in game situations, and as a face of baseball. He has the numbers, and the postseason success. If you open the door for Ortiz, you are going to have to open it up for Albert Belle, Edgar Martinez and several other players. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lt. Al Giardello 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 I hope Andre Dawson gets in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 David Ortiz should definitely be in the HOF. I don't buy the argument that he wasn't great enough for a number of years. For the last 4 seasons he's been legendary in terms of what he's done for a franchise, in important in game situations, and as a face of baseball. He has the numbers, and the postseason success. If you open the door for Ortiz, you are going to have to open it up for Albert Belle, Edgar Martinez and several other players. Heh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 Edgar deserves to make it. Who is going to make it? Goose Gossage, and maybe Jim Rice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 David Ortiz should definitely be in the HOF. I don't buy the argument that he wasn't great enough for a number of years. For the last 4 seasons he's been legendary in terms of what he's done for a franchise, in important in game situations, and as a face of baseball. He has the numbers, and the postseason success. If you open the door for Ortiz, you are going to have to open it up for Albert Belle, Edgar Martinez and several other players. Each player makes the Hall of Fame on their own merits, not because some vaguely similar players have similar numbers. In Belle's case, he had an abruptly short career and he is the polar opposite of Ortiz on the character issue. Martinez I unquestionably feel SHOULD be in the Hall of Fame when eligible, so no problem there. I'm not saying Ortiz is a Hall of Famer, just that he had a Hall of Fame caliber peak. So did Belle and Martinez. If Ortiz can produce for several more seasons, he's a solid candidate. Any player who consistently places top five in the MVP voting is a serious candidate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 Edgar deserves to make it. Who is going to make it? Goose Gossage, and maybe Jim Rice. Just Gossage. I'd be surprised if any other player is elected. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 Jayson Stark convinces Peter Gammons to vote for Tim Raines. sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof08/news/story?id=3169953 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NYankees Report post Posted December 30, 2007 David Ortiz should definitely be in the HOF. I don't buy the argument that he wasn't great enough for a number of years. For the last 4 seasons he's been legendary in terms of what he's done for a franchise, in important in game situations, and as a face of baseball. He has the numbers, and the postseason success. If you open the door for Ortiz, you are going to have to open it up for Albert Belle, Edgar Martinez and several other players. Each player makes the Hall of Fame on their own merits, not because some vaguely similar players have similar numbers. In Belle's case, he had an abruptly short career and he is the polar opposite of Ortiz on the character issue. Martinez I unquestionably feel SHOULD be in the Hall of Fame when eligible, so no problem there. I'm not saying Ortiz is a Hall of Famer, just that he had a Hall of Fame caliber peak. So did Belle and Martinez. If Ortiz can produce for several more seasons, he's a solid candidate. Any player who consistently places top five in the MVP voting is a serious candidate. I agree with you on the several more years for Ortiz. It's just that right now he only has 260 hr's and 800 plus rbi's. In 4-5 years he should be 450 hr's plus and 1300 rbi's. It's just that he has to get to that point. You also brought up a great point that players with his body have shown to break down. Belle, Fielder and Mo Vaughn were the 3 classic sluggers from the 90's who all broke down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 I tend to forget the October successes of Albert Belle and Cecil Fielder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2007 Ortiz is no where close to being a HOF at the moment but he's still relatively young. His career stats would have had a little more padding by now if the Twins hadn't dicked around with him for so long. He didn't even play enough to qualify for a batting title until his first year in Boston (2003) and that was his seventh year in the Majors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 2, 2008 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof08/news/story?id=3171257 Larry Stone convinces Phil Rogers to vote for Jim Rice. What's frustrating is how many superior players have been passed over while Rice hangs on. Tim Raines will get half the support, he was a superior player. Jose Cruz was a superior player. He got TWO votes in his only year of eligibility. Rice's supporters take his inflated numbers from Fenway Park and make their qualifiers 1975-86, exactly Rice's peak. During those 12 years, Rice was the most dominant player in the American League. Maybe not the best player -- I'd give that nod to George Brett. But check out Rice from 1975 to '86. He ranked first in the AL in games (1,766), first in at-bats (7,060), first in runs (1,098), first in hits (2,145), first in home runs (350), first in runs batted in (1,276), first in slugging percentage (.520), first in total bases (3,670), first in extra-base hits (752), first in go-ahead RBIs (325), first in multihit games (640), fourth in triples (73) -- so much for the notion that Rice was nothing but a plodder -- and fourth in batting average (.304). He also was first in outfield assists with 125. First in games and at bats, huh? No wonder he rates so highly in every counting stat. Let's expand this to 1970-1990, a few years on each side. Want to guess how many categories Rice leads? How about none of them. Let's have some fun with that 1975-86 stuff for a moment though. One of the big arguments for Rice is that he was the most feared hitter of his day. When it comes to intentional walks in that period though (keep in mind we're using AL only), he rates eighth. Rating ahead of Jim Rice are such non-HOFers as Ben Oglivie, Ken Singleton and Don Baylor. Singleton was a great hitter, played on two pennant winners and had a higher OPS+ than Rice. He failed to receive a single HOF vote. Yet Rice hangs on because he put up some superficially impressive seasons in Fenway. For the record, here are a list of the best seasons by LFers in terms of OPS+. Just look how "historic" Rice's seasons rate. http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/shareit/m5Br Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest My Pal, the Tortoise Report post Posted January 2, 2008 Rice hit the ball wicked hahd, though! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Hall of Fame results are announced today. ESPN's Sportsnation has SPOKEN! 75.6% for Rice, 43.6% for Tim Raines. Fucking morons. Since the 12 year standard of dominance has already been debunked by Joe Podnanski, let's have some fun and compare Rice's THREE best seasons. How does Rice from ages 24-26 stack up against MLB history? http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/shareit/AgDd 33rd. Will Clark was every bit as good at his peak. Bobby Murcer had two seasons better than Rice's best. Ooh, Fred McGriff is a good one. Ignore Benny Kauff, he's only on there because that list includes his Federal League numbers. The point is that while Rice's peak numbers were good, they are not this ungodly stretch that makes him a Hall of Famer. And he brings nothing else to the table. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 But he was SCARY! No one wanted to face him! Pitchers cowered in abject terror when he stepped to the plate! Or something. At least we only have to hear about him for one more year when he doesn't get in today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Three minutes to the announcement. Props to mlb.com, as I've caught five minutes of their coverage and am very impressed with their analysis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Goose Gossage with 86% of the vote, no other inductees. I'm surprised to see such a high vote percentage so late into his voting process. With the standard for relievers established, Gossage meets those requirements. Deserving candidate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Player Total Votes Percentage Rich Gossage 466 85.8% Jim Rice 392 72.2% Andre Dawson 358 65.9% Bert Blyleven 336 61.9% Lee Smith 235 43.3% Jack Morris 233 42.9% Tommy John 158 29.1% Tim Raines 132 24.3% Mark McGwire 128 23.6% Alan Trammell 99 18.2% Dave Concepcion 88 16.2% Don Mattingly 86 15.8% Dave Parker 82 15.1% Dale Murphy 75 13.8% Harold Baines 28 5.2% Rod Beck 2 0.4% Travis Fryman 2 0.4% Robb Nen 2 0.4% Shawon Dunston 1 0.2% Chuck Finley 1 0.2% David Justice 1 0.2% Chuck Knoblauch 1 0.2% Todd Stottlemyre 1 0.2% Jose Rijo 0 0% Brady Anderson 0 0% Tim Raines got 24.3%. Jim Rice finished nearly 50% higher. That is absolutely pathetic, disgraceful. Otherwise, the most interesting piece of information is that Mark McGwire failed to gain a SINGLE Hall of Fame vote. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheech Tremendous 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Raines only got 24.3%?! Fucking cocksuckers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheech Tremendous 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Player Total Votes Percentage Mark McGwire 128 23.6% Otherwise, the most interesting piece of information is that Mark McGwire failed to gain a SINGLE Hall of Fame vote. Que? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Cheech, McGwire also received 128 votes last year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheech Tremendous 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 Cheech, McGwire also received 128 votes last year. Sorry, I misunderstood your statement with regards to the usage of gain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 YES! Gossage should have gotten in ages ago. Unfortunately, Rice will be getting in next year. I just don't get it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheech Tremendous 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 YES! Gossage should have gotten in ages ago. Unfortunately, Rice will be getting in next year. I just don't get it. Rickey is on the ballot next year, which will probably hurt the chances of Rice getting in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2008 YES! Gossage should have gotten in ages ago. Unfortunately, Rice will be getting in next year. I just don't get it. Rickey is on the ballot next year, which will probably hurt the chances of Rice getting in. But next year is Rice's last year on the ballot, so I expect a strong campaign to get him in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
