Tito Ortiz

[Just call me Dan 0]

I really have never seen anyone give respect to this guy. Maybe as a showman, but never at anything else.

 

Discussions usually culminate in his size giving him an advantage, great cardio, but inability to finish a fight EVER (other than Shamrock and a sweet suplex to Tanner).

 

Is there really any debate to be had?

 

I think so. I'm a big fan of the guy, other than him going overboard in disrespecting others often times. I think his fights with Forrest and Evans in which he did not lose, but didn't convincingly win tell a lot. Guys his age and experience level have a tendency to get steamrolled by the newer generation that come around because of the evolution of the game (see: Hughes).

 

Let's say Tito finishes this fight with Machida and takes the duke in the 2nd round.

 

Where does he stand with you guys then?

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Was an elite LHW but hasn't been worth a damn in the last 4 years or so. The Rashad fight showed that he still has the ability to be the fighter he once was but I think with his obsession with being a businessman as well as injuries piling up he's on the down-swing. The Lyoto fight could prove me wrong, though. If he fiinished Lyoto he'd be back in the top ten easily but still a long way to go from getting a title shot.

 

At the Q and A with Dana in Montreal somebody asked about Tito and Dana has said that they've hated each other for years now and Tito always comes back to UFC when times like this roll around.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

If Ortiz were to beat Machida, he'd re-enter the top five for me. I've been on record for some time here that I think Machida either is, or has the potential to be the strongest fighter in the LHW ranks. If Tito were to beat him, or stop him, he'd not only be the first person to do so, but he'd earn vast amounts of my respect.

 

Tito's going to be famous not for his fighting (Because if he leaves UFC, UFC will act as if Tito never existed like they do *EVERYONE* that leaves), but with inside fans on how he conducted business. The guy is ruthless, and knows how much he's worth. He's constantly fighting with Dana because Dana likes to try to low-ball people, and Tito doesn't fuck around in that department. This latest move is the biggest grandstand yet, as he's pretty much said he's leaving UFC after this fight...but UFC knows Tito on the prelims makes no sense, so their putting him in a semi-main...against a guy no one has ever looked *good* against. If Tito wins, his worth skyrockets and if UFC doesn't cave (They'd be insane not to at that point) then Elite XC or god forbid Affliction will come calling with Elite's CBS deal and Afflictions'...whatever they got. Tito could make a big difference there. However, if Tito loses to a guy who UFC has never really put any focus on, it will damage Tito's star power and credibility significantly. This fight is all or nothing for Tito.

 

Unfortunately for Tito, I don't see how he can beat Machida. Machida has one of the strongest counter-striking styles in MMA, and his ground game is really, really strong as well. Tito's thing is to take the opponent down and grind them hoping they'll mentally break, but I don't see it working with Machida. Machida's ground game is good enough that it'll give Tito problems, and standing, he should be able to pick Tito apart. Another factor working against Tito, is he hasn't faced anyone of Machida's caliber outside of Liddell in ages. Even when he beat Forrest, it was before Forrest began to peak. Outside of those Liddell fights, this will be the toughest test Tito's had in years.

 

I kind of blame Tito for the whole "Lay in the guard throwing shots primarily elbows" thing though. He made that tactic popular, and now that's what wrestlers will do. They won't try to get to "stronger" positions because it puts them at higher risks. They'll just sit in the guard and throw shots with no intention of passing. Bores me sometimes.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I don't see how you can blame Tito for utilizing something effectively. Yes, he was one of the pioneers for ground and pound within the guard but the difference is that Tito's strikes were damaging enough that passing for him isn't an issue because he doesn't need to.

 

I wouldn't rank Tito in the top five if he beat Lyoto. Rampage, Forrest, Jardine, Chuck and Shogun are all still above Tito because they, unlike him have racked up wins that matter over the last 3 years.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

I don't consider Keith Jardine in the top five. I don't even know if I'd put him in my personal ten. Yes, he beat Chuck Liddell, but Liddell was either completely zonked out from too much partying, or didn't train enough. He was more one-dimensional then he normally is, and all he looked for that entire fight was that one big punch which he never got. Liddell looked MUCH better against Silva. Totally different person almost. The guy's gone 4-2 in UFC, and outside of his Liddell and Forrest wins, the other two were nothing special. Lets not forget he got nearly killed by Houston Alexander, who has been completely exposed as not even that good of a striker.

[Just call me Dan 0]

The Silva fight is basicaly all or nothing for him as well.

 

There has to be money in two vets like Ortiz and Silva both winning next month and starting up a war of words. Tito has too much mney to make with a win here on a consistent basis with UFC, but I KNOW EliteXC or Affliction, even Cuban would throw out more than he'd make in a couple of years for a 2 fight deal.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I don't consider Keith Jardine in the top five. I don't even know if I'd put him in my personal ten. Yes, he beat Chuck Liddell, but Liddell was either completely zonked out from too much partying, or didn't train enough. He was more one-dimensional then he normally is, and all he looked for that entire fight was that one big punch which he never got. Liddell looked MUCH better against Silva. Totally different person almost. The guy's gone 4-2 in UFC, and outside of his Liddell and Forrest wins, the other two were nothing special. Lets not forget he got nearly killed by Houston Alexander, who has been completely exposed as not even that good of a striker.

 

If you have Forrest in your top ten (and you likely do) then by proxy of that Jardine needs to be included.

[NoCalMike 0]

I don't consider Keith Jardine in the top five. I don't even know if I'd put him in my personal ten. Yes, he beat Chuck Liddell, but Liddell was either completely zonked out from too much partying, or didn't train enough. He was more one-dimensional then he normally is, and all he looked for that entire fight was that one big punch which he never got. Liddell looked MUCH better against Silva. Totally different person almost. The guy's gone 4-2 in UFC, and outside of his Liddell and Forrest wins, the other two were nothing special. Lets not forget he got nearly killed by Houston Alexander, who has been completely exposed as not even that good of a striker.

 

The thing with Jardine is that he is basically a one-dimensional fighter. When you are purely a striker, you are going to lose as much as you win because there really isn't anyone incapable of being knocked out. I am not a big Jardine fan, but coming off his win against Liddell, if he somehow beats Silva next month, he probably either deserves a title shot or a shot at the winner of Liddell/Evans for the #1 contendership.

 

Also, I don't think Houston Alexander is overrated or underrated, he just is what he is, a one-dimensional striker. He is basically a black version of Jardine. He is a good striker but that is it which means he will get KTFO just as much as he KO's his opponents. That is why Alexander vs. Jardine was such an exciting bout.(well for the striker fans out there) either guy could have been dropped.

 

The sport of MMA has evolved too much for a pure striker like Jardine or Alexander to be the top ranked guys, but that doesn't mean they don't have a chance every time they step in the cage. Alexander more then Jardine probably, at least gives off the aura of having the chance to KTFO his opponent, even when he is clearly outclassed in other aspects of the MMA game. It is basically the same reason Kimbo Slice is putting asses in seats right now. No one in their right mind would call him the best, or top 5 or even maybe top 10 HW, but every time he gets in the ring there is a chance for a vicious KO, and like it or not, that is what most people are watching MMA for.

 

EDIT: My bad this was a thread about Tito Ortiz. Well what can I say, Tito kind of carried the company during a transitional period. Chuck Liddell broke the man down twice and that was pretty much the last we heard from him until he was on the cusp of beating Evans(I saw that one in person). I don't think Tito Ortiz is done as a fighter, but I think a change of scenery could be good for him. I wouldn't mind seeing Tito Ortiz mix it up with Frank Shamrock again, or throwing down with Robbie Lawler.......some interesting matchups waiting for him in Elite XC.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

"He is basically a black version of Jardine."

 

No disrespect but that's a fairly ignorant statement to make.

[Youth N Asia 0]

Tito couldn't even finish Cote, a true 185er. I just think he hasn't evolved with the fight game like other fighters have

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

"He is basically a black version of Jardine."

 

No disrespect but that's a fairly ignorant statement to make.

 

No kidding... Houston Alexander is a street brawler who got lucky because Jardine didn't come into the fight with the right mindset. Jardine was too angry at the fact he was facing someone as low as Houston Alexander after coming off a huge win against Forrest Griffin, and rightfully so... Alexander took advantage of it and took it to Jardine right from the opening bell.

 

Jardine is byfar a better more techncial striker then Alexander, and if you put Jardine against Alexander 10 times, Jardine wins 9 of the matches. And Jardine isn't just a striker, he has very underrated grappling ability. He doesn't really show it, because his stand up is his main strength.

 

If you don't rank Jardine in the top 10, you need to rethink how to rank fighters... Or stop being biased, because no one who knows anything is going to take your list seriously. Calling Jardine top 5 is a stretch, but he is no doubt a top 10 fighter... 2 wins over Griffin and Liddell, who are top 10 fighters easily puts you in the top 10.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Anyway, as for Tito Ortiz... The talent is still there, but the drive and hunger he has isn't there.

 

Lyoto is a very winnable fight for him as I stated it in the past... To say if Tito doesn't finish him, he is finished is very ignorant as well. Incase you haven't notice Lyoto is undefeated, even if Tito grinds out a desicion it would be a very impressive performance considering Lyoto's track record.

 

Tito can outmuscle Lyoto taking him down and grind out a desicion... I can't see him stopping Lyoto, because Lyoto is a black belt BJJ, but there is nothing about Lyoto's ground game that says he can submit a grappler like Tito off his back.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

It depends on the method of Tito's decision. If every round he works Lyoto over like he did Forrest I'll be impressed and have no issues ranking him. If he fights like a complete pussy like he did when he got Rashad down it'll be another story.

[Mik 0]

Tito carries himself like a boxer in the sense that marketing himself is far more important than his actual fight.

 

If he beats Machida, which I honestly don't think he will, I think he'll be back in the discussion for top LHW fighters. The problem is, it's irrelevant. I think Tito will leave the UFC and probably not fight another top LHW for awhile. He'll probably fight Shamrock and Trigg, who obviously aren't LHWs.

 

If he goes with EliteXC - I can see him fighting Kimbo down the line, as well. Also not a LHW. You might think that fight doesn't make sense and I agree but you have to consider that Tito is going to want to catch a piece of the Kimbo heat.

 

Either way - I have Machida winning this fight by decision. Tito probably won't finish him and I'm not sure he's going to be able to take down and gnp Lyoto at will.

[AmericanDragon 0]

...

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

I don't consider Keith Jardine in the top five. I don't even know if I'd put him in my personal ten. Yes, he beat Chuck Liddell, but Liddell was either completely zonked out from too much partying, or didn't train enough. He was more one-dimensional then he normally is, and all he looked for that entire fight was that one big punch which he never got. Liddell looked MUCH better against Silva. Totally different person almost. The guy's gone 4-2 in UFC, and outside of his Liddell and Forrest wins, the other two were nothing special. Lets not forget he got nearly killed by Houston Alexander, who has been completely exposed as not even that good of a striker.

 

If you have Forrest in your top ten (and you likely do) then by proxy of that Jardine needs to be included.

 

I strongly disagree with this statement. This is why MMath fails. Yes, Keith Jardine beat Forrest. Doesn't matter, and I'll tell you why. For one, the fight happened sixteen months ago, and Forrest has DRASTICALLY changed since that fight. He's changed his entire style from what he once was to what he is now. He then proceeded to cautiously beat Hector Rameriz in a fight that he just didn't want to lose, but his breakout was the Shogun fight. He DOMINATED the #1 LHW in the world, and finished him. The first time Shogun had ever been finished since 2003.

 

The Forrest that lost to Jardine quite frankly doesn't exist anymore. Forrest has admitted this himself. Jardine beat a Forrest who used a style to get in there and strike and whatever happened, happened. The Forrest that beat Shogun had a gameplan, he used strikes and an insane pace to wear Shogun down, and then he proceeded to methodically beat him before clamping on the choke. He's evolved *because* of that loss to Jardine. Lets not ignore that Forrest trains with Couture now. That *alone* puts him significantly past his old self.

 

On the flipside, Jardine's last major loss to Alexander caused no discernible change in Jardine's style in his fight with Liddell. He still fought like Jardine against Liddell, possibly a little sharper on strikes and a little more tentative. Granted, I can't say that Jardine didn't learn anything, but he hasn't shown it yet. And until he gets another fight against someone other then a zonked out lethargic Chuck Liddell, then I don't consider him good enough to rank. When he beat Forrest, I probably wouldn't have ranked *either* at that point. Forrest has just done more to earn a ranking let alone going 2-0 in that span to Jardine's 1-1.

 

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I love the selective wording of Chuck being "zonked out" when Jardine beat him while Forrest DOMINATED Shogun. You praise the game plan of Forrest while completely looking past Jardine tooling Chuck at his own game.

[Damaramu 0]

AmericanDragon that photo you posted may be one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.

I've got a friend that thinks she's convincing Tito that he's bigger than the sport and doesn't need it anymore. I think he had already convinced himself about the bigger than part.

 

Oh and Hawk, I think Forrest has been training with Couture since before the Tito fight. I'm pretty sure he was training with him when he lost to Jardine. I do agree he has gotten better. He was much more aggressive. Against Bonnar(No. 2), Tito and Jardine he would rock the guy or land a damaging blow then back off. He never seemed to want to go for the kill.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Alright Hawk, I'm going to need to see your top ten LHW's right now because I'd love to see who you'd be ranking above Jardine.