TNA ratings drop

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

It appears that we're heading for a Booker/Joe program. Which I'm all for because it's brand new. If they want to run with Joe/Booker and AJ/Angle on top for a little while, I'm all for it.

 

I'd like to see Christian and Rhino stay as a team for a little bit...but really only if they would turn LAX heel again. I think they could have a nice series of matches once LAX is done with Team 3D.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

Would somebody care to give actual reasons why they think Joe is better than JBL. No one has so far, and I just think the idea is preposterous. Until somebody does I'll just assume its the standard "Because Joe does more moves~! and wrestles like a cruiserweight when he's 280 pounds."

[Jingus 0]

Yes I have given reasons why, but I'll repeat and expound on what I said earlier. Because JBL has had a lot of shitty matches where I simply didn't want to watch, even with good opponents; I can't say the same thing about Joe. I've never, ever seen JBL have matches which were nearly as good as Joe's best stuff. And yes, I've seen the matches with Eddie and Cena, and I'd rather watch Joe/Styles or Joebashi any day of the week. JBL's cardio is much worse; you sure as hell won't see him doing any one-hour matches. For all the whining about Joe being fat, at least he looks solid, and not saggy like JBL does these days. Joe's a better bumper. JBL is often unnecessarily stiff, especially with guys who aren't allowed to fight back; see him repeatedly kicking various jobbers right in the face in countless squash matches. Even legendary pussy weakling girly-man Terry Funk complained that Bradshaw hits you too hard. Joe actually works his strikes.

 

I will admit that JBL has a better overall character and is a much better promo guy. And like I said, I don't hate Bradshaw nearly as much as a lot of smarks do. But I'm still mystified by the idea that he's a better in-ring worker than Joe.

[Old School 0]

Samoa Joe never marched as a nazi on the ring apron or threatend to rape anyone in the shower to the best of my knowledge either.

[luke-o 0]

I'm with Jingus on this. I don't think JBL is a terrible worker, but he's not a great worker. Having 2 good matches in the past couple of years doesn't qualify as a great wrestler.

 

Whereas Joe had good-great matches in his first 2 years of being in TNA. I haven't seen much of his ROH stuff, but what I have seen has also been awesome.

 

JBL is a better character as I've said before. He's golden on the mic and the best colour commentator the E has had in fucking years. But he's no way in hell a better worker than Joe.

[The Truthiness 0]

Yes I have given reasons why, but I'll repeat and expound on what I said earlier. Because JBL has had a lot of shitty matches where I simply didn't want to watch, even with good opponents; I can't say the same thing about Joe. I've never, ever seen JBL have matches which were nearly as good as Joe's best stuff. And yes, I've seen the matches with Eddie and Cena, and I'd rather watch Joe/Styles or Joebashi any day of the week. JBL's cardio is much worse; you sure as hell won't see him doing any one-hour matches. For all the whining about Joe being fat, at least he looks solid, and not saggy like JBL does these days. Joe's a better bumper. JBL is often unnecessarily stiff, especially with guys who aren't allowed to fight back; see him repeatedly kicking various jobbers right in the face in countless squash matches. Even legendary pussy weakling girly-man Terry Funk complained that Bradshaw hits you too hard. Joe actually works his strikes.

 

I will admit that JBL has a better overall character and is a much better promo guy. And like I said, I don't hate Bradshaw nearly as much as a lot of smarks do. But I'm still mystified by the idea that he's a better in-ring worker than Joe.

 

Is that why he knocked Angle out that one time? I think it was also a couple of times in ROH where he was too stiff with opponents. Joe is 280 pounds, with a head dropping and stiff striking offense, he shouldn't be wrestling hour long matches, it just screams "Look at me, I'm fat, and can go 60 minutes". JBL's offense is believable, and outside of the Meanie incident and a few disciplinary actions, that he was told to do. I don't remember him ever hurting anyone, Joe on the other hand like I said, knocked Angle loopy and then Kurt still had to finish the match.

 

JBL bumps well, and he doesn't bump the same way for every adversary like Joe, you can watch the matches with Rey and Eddie, than turn around and watch his matches with Cena, Taker, and Booker and see he changes up his bumps very good, and it lends itself extremely well to whoever he is opposite with, and his punch selling is also good, he leans in to a guys punches and make it look devastating, Joe is nowhere in the league of JBL in bumping or selling.

 

Joe doesn't set up comebacks for a guy better, the most recent example of this, was the match this past Sunday with Cena, I mean the way JBL set up that Full nelson spot, that arm bar spot, and that waist lock spot. He set all Cena's comebacks up well, and his cut off's were just as good. He brought the stiffness, and the mat wrestling Sunday, and set up a tremendous finish in that match, it was awesome. JBL didn't carry Cena by any means, but his offense and Cena selling made that match tremendous. That match completely smoked Joe/Angle Lockdown, and they basically started the contest the same way Joe/Angle started, the difference is they made it work for 20 minutes and didn't have to go all MMA to make it look sensible. Joe/Angle spent 10 minutes doing MMA bullshit that went nowhere, and shockingly it wasn't Angle's blunder this time around. He had Joe in a figure four for about 3 minutes, and Joe is up doing his ridiculous kicks and muscle buster like it is nothing. It was almost like the FF gave Joe’s leg power, instead of doing any significant damage. This just one instance of how JBL>>>>Joe, but there are a few more

 

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

You're both missing the point.

 

Truthiness and ANKLELOCK (who share the same brain and post the same posts in the same threads...like the special friends that they are) like JBL better than Joe...so that alone makes JBL better in every possible way.

 

...

 

Just like when we were children.

 

...

 

It explains why Truthiness is the only person that can't see the problem with a Macho Man Randy Savage gimmick on the top of a national company. Because he LIKES it...so it is good.

 

And thus I have saved everyone the trouble of continuing any further conversations that can't possibly be any different then this one base idea:

 

When I was 10, Ultimate Warrior was my favorite wrestler. And he was the best wrestler in the world and everything that he did was better than every other wrestler. Because that's just how it is.

[luke-o 0]

I still can't believe that we are having an argument over who is the better wrestler, Samoa Joe or fucking Blackjack Bradshaw. It's unbelieveable. The guys been wrestling since 92 and has had a couple of matches against 2 other wrestlers and suddenly he's amazing? When did this happen?

 

And granted, I've not seen the JBL/Cena match from JD08, but i can't imagine it's "tremendous".

[Jingus 0]

long paragraphs of bullshit

Stop acting like your opinion is fact. You're not providing factual evidence here. "JBL set up Cena's comebacks" is the sort of DVDVR-ish debating which just pisses me off, because 1.you don't know who planned what out there (could've been JBL, Cena, an agent, the referee giving them spots he's been told over his earpiece, etc), and 2.what the hell does it mean? It sounds like making an argument, but it's the kind of statement which is so vague that it doesn't impart any actual information.

[The Truthiness 0]

I never said JBL was transcending the profession, or anything of the like Luke. What I'm saying is, I don't see what Joe does better than JBL, I don't see it. I've been top many shows and seen Joe live while he was in ROH, and like I said I wasn't impressed then, and I don't see it happening now.

 

Luke-o I appreciate you're at least being civil, in this conversation and not making petty attacks, you too Jingus, eventhough I know you both don't like me.

[Timmy8271 0]

I don't think Joe is horrible but he seems so unmotivated right now. His promos are lacking and seem to be the same thing every time. I don't blame him of course because no doubt Angle is getting the title back before the end of the year and he's been booked like a chump. I just can't believe someone thinks JBL is a better wrestler than Joe when Motivated. Maybe promo wise but wrestling wise?

[The Truthiness 0]

long paragraphs of bullshit

Stop acting like your opinion is fact. You're not providing factual evidence here. "JBL set up Cena's comebacks" is the sort of DVDVR-ish debating which just pisses me off, because 1.you don't know who planned what out there (could've been JBL, Cena, an agent, the referee giving them spots he's been told over his earpiece, etc), and 2.what the hell does it mean? It sounds like making an argument, but it's the kind of statement which is so vague that it doesn't impart any actual information.

 

 

I never said it was fact Jingus, I didn't think I had to let it be known that these are just MY opinions. I think we all know, that everything said in here is opinions, none of it is fact, I'm explaining why I like JBL more than Joe. I didn't even bring JBL in this conversation, luke-o did. We could've kept talking about Joe, but anytime you talk about Joe, somebody in WWE gets brought up, usually Umaga. I don't even know why we're talking about JBL.

[luke-o 0]

Well I just watched the JD08 match and I still don't see what your saying. It was a pretty average match, a nice ending but the rest of it was leg locks and Cena's over the top selling. Was it a better match than Angle/Joe at Lockdown? Hell no, and I didn't really like the match at Lockdown (I don't "get" MMA).

 

The best way for me to put this is - Joe matches make me say, "nice". JBL matches don't have that effect on me. They make me say, "meh".

[The Truthiness 0]

Well I just watched the JD08 match and I still don't see what your saying. It was a pretty average match, a nice ending but the rest of it was leg locks and Cena's over the top selling. Was it a better match than Angle/Joe at Lockdown? Hell no, and I didn't really like the match at Lockdown (I don't "get" MMA).

 

The best way for me to put this is - Joe matches make me say, "nice". JBL matches don't have that effect on me. They make me say, "meh".

 

Fair enough.

 

[Jingus 0]

Luke-o I appreciate you're at least being civil, in this conversation and not making petty attacks, you too Jingus, eventhough I know you both don't like me.

It's not that I don't like you... okay, well, sometimes I don't, but that's not the point. It's mostly just arguing about stupid wrestling shit. And while some of your opinions hit me like someone saying "you know, I saw Laurence Olivier's version of Hamlet last night, and it fucking sucked, thank god I watched the awesome Ready to Rumble to get the bad taste out of my mouth", but some of the other stuff you say I actually agree with. You're right, Joe generally probably shouldn't be doing hour-long matches, especially against a guy like CM Punk who's half his size and looks like Joe should be able to break him over his knee. I just think it's impressive that he can have a match that long if called to do so, while the majority of wrestlers can't do that.

[The Truthiness 0]

Luke-o I appreciate you're at least being civil, in this conversation and not making petty attacks, you too Jingus, eventhough I know you both don't like me.

It's not that I don't like you... okay, well, sometimes I don't, but that's not the point. It's mostly just arguing about stupid wrestling shit. And while some of your opinions hit me like someone saying "you know, I saw Laurence Olivier's version of Hamlet last night, and it fucking sucked, thank god I watched the awesome Ready to Rumble to get the bad taste out of my mouth", but some of the other stuff you say I actually agree with. You're right, Joe generally probably shouldn't be doing hour-long matches, especially against a guy like CM Punk who's half his size and looks like Joe should be able to break him over his knee. I just think it's impressive that he can have a match that long if called to do so, while the majority of wrestlers can't do that.

 

Well it wouldn't be Ready to Rumble, it would probably be Menace 2 Society.

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

[ANKLELOCK 0]

For the record, me and truthy don't agree on everything as was purported earlier. I completely disagree with his Jay Lethal emphatuation.

 

that said, truthiness gave a way better explanation earlier in this thread than I did, but, yeah, JBL showed on Sunday how good he really is.

 

And Cena's selling isn't "over the top", it's phenomenal. The match Sunday was even more a showcase of how good Cena is than JBL, but Cena didn't really need it as much as JBL cuz Cena's shown over the last two years how fabulous he is in PPV matches.

 

The bodyscissors, full nelson, and arm scissors spots in their match were better than anything in Angle/Joe.

[Joseph2112 0]

I would like to throw in some comments based on the original thread. The alarming thing for TNA has to be that at least one million people have left WWE as viewers, but not gone anywhere else. They just dissapeared from the wrestling landscape. And at the end of the day, it has to be TNA's storylines. They have a roster that can do just about everything from serious wrestling to comedy to sexy to everything in between. I always thought that TNA would go for the southern style wrestling fan that left with WCW but I guess not.

 

If I was them, I would have gone with the old NWO angle. A lot of the IWC would have shit on it, but to have a faction of ex-wwe guys saying "we are here to bury this small peanuts, southern hick promotion", followed by a buildup of homegrown TNA talent to fight that, would have gotten tons of mark wrestling fans involved and allowed the company to build its own.

 

I don't watch TNA because of Tenay/West, but thats what I think.

[AlaskanHero 0]

I would comment on the Joe thing, but I feel the argument over him is kinda stupid. I'll just say that I like Joe and I think he's one of the top workers around.

 

Now, for the topic at hand, I have to wonder why so much attention on the ratings? TNA gets no revenue from them and really, outside of pleasing Spike, they aren't all that important. They average about a million viewers, every week right? Well, financially, if they could convert more than 2-3% of their audience, they would be fine. But does that come down to better marketing, better booking, or both?

[Guest]

Yeah, thanks for that. If you don't have something to add to the discussion, don't post in the thread.

[luke-o 0]

And Cena's selling isn't "over the top", it's phenomenal.

 

I don't want to derail the thread again, but that statement is pretty false.

 

I'm sorry, but the whole "gasping for air" selling during the leg lock sequence was laughable.

[Jingus 0]

Now, for the topic at hand, I have to wonder why so much attention on the ratings? TNA gets no revenue from them and really, outside of pleasing Spike, they aren't all that important.

It's the old Monday Night Wars mindset. Back then, ratings were used as an easy shorthand method of telling who was "winning". It got to the point where they were considered more important than actual revenue, especially in WCW. And many of the same guys who were in charge back then are still in charge now.

[nl5xsk1 0]

I don't think it's Joe's physique that hurst him as much as the total aethetics of his appearance. The beaded necklace, the trunks he wears, and his physique all combine to look very, very "indy". And while that's fine to an actual wrestling fan, who might realize that "indy" isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you're a passive fan that was raised on the glitz & glamor of the WWE, or even WCW, you're not going to give him the chance to impress you. He just doesn't look like what people have been conditioned to expect. You can compare him to JBL all you want, but at least JBL - other than his lack of definition - looks more like a "pro wrestler".

 

And a few pages ago cabbageboy said that Selinas "detracts from the bad ass mentality". I think that Hector, a MUCH older guy that doesn't look like he's part of the gangbanging lifestyle that LAX is projecting, looks more out of place than Selinas. Most of the gangs that I've seen - admittedly on TV and whatnot, I haven't had the pleasure of really spending much time with Latino gangs - have had female hangers-on and whatnot.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

LAX worked best when they were beating the piss out of Styles and Daniels every week. Turn them heel and pair them with the MachineGuns in the same fashion and everyone will get over. It's nice that they're trying them out as faces, and it might work out...but I prefered heel LAX. Fans are going to cheer them anyway...because Hernandez's moves are always going to pop the crowd...but there's no reason to take away their defiant attitude like they've decided to do.

 

Watching Homicide sell for three quarters of a match isn't nearly as fun as them being dicks and Homicide forking people. If the Guns had been around when LAX was finished with Styles and Daniels in 06 a feud with LAX would have made them. Now we're stuck with both teams as faces and the Guns in the eternal doghouse.

[DangerousDamon 0]

LAX worked best when they were beating the piss out of Styles and Daniels every week. Turn them heel and pair them with the MachineGuns in the same fashion and everyone will get over. It's nice that they're trying them out as faces, and it might work out...but I prefered heel LAX. Fans are going to cheer them anyway...because Hernandez's moves are always going to pop the crowd...but there's no reason to take away their defiant attitude like they've decided to do.

 

Watching Homicide sell for three quarters of a match isn't nearly as fun as them being dicks and Homicide forking people. If the Guns had been around when LAX was finished with Styles and Daniels in 06 a feud with LAX would have made them. Now we're stuck with both teams as faces and the Guns in the eternal doghouse.

 

The Guns are STILL in the doghouse over that blading issue? That's a little ridiculous

[Silence 0]

They really haven't been winning many matches in TNA this year, and it was sad to see them lose the first round of the Deuces Wild Tag Tournament to Christian Cage and Rhino.

 

The Guns didn't get much offense on LAX either in their recent match.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Yeah. Christian and Rhino went out and gave them a lot of offense...but it didn't matter in the long run because they're still getting squashed by everyone else.

[luke-o 0]

LAX worked best when they were beating the piss out of Styles and Daniels every week. Turn them heel and pair them with the MachineGuns in the same fashion and everyone will get over. It's nice that they're trying them out as faces, and it might work out...but I prefered heel LAX. Fans are going to cheer them anyway...because Hernandez's moves are always going to pop the crowd...but there's no reason to take away their defiant attitude like they've decided to do.

 

I still think part of TNA's problem is The Impact Zone. Those smarky bastards will cheer who they like wether they're heel or not. Joe was a great heel until the crowd kept chanting for him, they had to turn him face. The same thing happened with LAX.

 

And I fear the same thing will happen to Awesome Kong.

[Old School 0]

I don't think it's Joe's physique that hurst him as much as the total aethetics of his appearance.

I don't think it has anything to do with his appearance, it's because he is being booked poorly. Yokozuna, Adrian Adonis, Bam Bam Bigelow, etc. all proved weight didn't matter. Goldberg, Austin, etc. all proved ring gear doesn't either.

 

Joe was over in ROH. Granted, that is a niche crowd, but he was over, despite being fat and wearing terrible ring gear. In TNA, he was over early when he wasn't talking much and was putting on consistantly good matches. Then, as his popularity grew, TNA decided to thrust him into storylines and whatnot, and that's when things went sour. People just lost interest because he's a complaining pussy instead of a no-nonsense ass-kicker. People can see a complaining pussy everyday at work.