TNA ratings drop

[The Truthiness 0]

I don't think it's Joe's physique that hurst him as much as the total aethetics of his appearance.

I don't think it has anything to do with his appearance, it's because he is being booked poorly. Yokozuna, Adrian Adonis, Bam Bam Bigelow, etc. all proved weight didn't matter. Goldberg, Austin, etc. all proved ring gear doesn't either.

 

Joe was over in ROH. Granted, that is a niche crowd, but he was over, despite being fat and wearing terrible ring gear. In TNA, he was over early when he wasn't talking much and was putting on consistantly good matches. Then, as his popularity grew, TNA decided to thrust him into storylines and whatnot, and that's when things went sour. People just lost interest because he's a complaining pussy instead of a no-nonsense ass-kicker. People can see a complaining pussy everyday at work.

All had more personality than Joe.

[nl5xsk1 0]

I don't think it's Joe's physique that hurst him as much as the total aethetics of his appearance.

I don't think it has anything to do with his appearance, it's because he is being booked poorly. Yokozuna, Adrian Adonis, Bam Bam Bigelow, etc. all proved weight didn't matter. Goldberg, Austin, etc. all proved ring gear doesn't either.

 

Joe was over in ROH. Granted, that is a niche crowd, but he was over, despite being fat and wearing terrible ring gear. In TNA, he was over early when he wasn't talking much and was putting on consistantly good matches. Then, as his popularity grew, TNA decided to thrust him into storylines and whatnot, and that's when things went sour. People just lost interest because he's a complaining pussy instead of a no-nonsense ass-kicker. People can see a complaining pussy everyday at work.

Jingo, I think you missed the point of that paragraph. My point was that he looks so unprofessional (for lack of a better word) that a casual fan wouldn't bother watching to see how he was booked. The beaded necklace? Fine for a frat party, not so fine for a "world champion". The trunks? They just don't look professional to me. Add in his lack of definition, and he just comes across as too "indy" for a mainstream audience.

[Old School 0]

That's just untrue. That's why I blatantly name-dropped Adonis. People care if you're booked proper. Joe as a babyface that whines isn't proper. Regardless of how he is dressed or how sloppy he looks. CM Punk looks just as "unprofessional" if not moreso and people care about him over in WWE.

 

...I can't argue the Truthiness point though...cause that's just straight true. I should've tried to think of better examples, I guess.

[nl5xsk1 0]

That's just untrue. That's why I blatantly name-dropped Adonis. People care if you're booked proper. Joe as a babyface that whines isn't proper. Regardless of how he is dressed or how sloppy he looks. CM Punk looks just as "unprofessional" if not moreso and people care about him over in WWE.

 

...I can't argue the Truthiness point though...cause that's just straight true. I should've tried to think of better examples, I guess.

We'll have to agree to disagree. You'll keep referring to how he's booked. And I'll keep referring to people not sticking around to see how he's booked.

 

And I think we're using too different definitions of "professional". I don't mean sloppy or unkempt; I mean amateurish. From what I've seen of CM Punk, he wears "standard" tights, he doesn't have a surfer necklace on his neck, and other than his lip-piercing, everything seems pretty much in line with what we were conditioned to expect from a pro wrestler. Now, if I meant sloppy or unkempt when I said "unprofessional", his tattoos, wrist/hand tape and scraggly beard would be applicable.

[Old School 0]

So, if he were to wear shorter tights, fake tan, get some tribal tattoos ala Kennedy and Orton and lose some weight you think he would be magically more over with the crowd? That's a pretty asinine argument. Where did that idea come from, just speculation? I don't see how his ring attire makes him look amateurish any moreso than any other wrestler. He's not coming out in a K-Mart halloween outfit like some people I've seen on the indies. He's not wearing airbrushed gear with superglued lettering.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

I think the fact is that Joe just isn't marketable to a mainstream WWE-like audience. It's not his ring gear, or his look, or his lack of personality. It's all of the above.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

Nah, I bet you if WWE signed him, and used him as a silent ass kicker who just came out, moved fast, hit a few high spots, and pinned his opponent, he would get over. It's TNA as a whole that isn't marketable to a mainstream WWE audience.

[nl5xsk1 0]

So, if he were to wear shorter tights, fake tan, get some tribal tattoos ala Kennedy and Orton and lose some weight you think he would be magically more over with the crowd? That's a pretty asinine argument. Where did that idea come from, just speculation? I don't see how his ring attire makes him look amateurish any moreso than any other wrestler. He's not coming out in a K-Mart halloween outfit like some people I've seen on the indies. He's not wearing airbrushed gear with superglued lettering.

 

In order: Yes, wearing the same style of trunks that have traditionally been worn by wrestlers would help him look like a pro wrestler. I don't care if they're shorter or down-to-the-boots. But what he's wearing now look more like swimming trunks than wrestling tights, IMHO. No, fake tan isn't necessary, his skin tone is a-Ok. Tribal tats aren't necessary, either. Losing weight wouldn't hurt, but as you correctly pointed out it's not a prerequisite. (although I could make the argument that the undefined guys you pointed out as part of your argument were a sumo-gimmick and two mid-carders. But that's besides the point)

 

And "the crowd" that you refer to might be different than the one that I am. You seem to be talking about him being more over with the crowd in the arenas and the TNA fans. I'm not. I'm talking about casual fan that might stumble across TNA while flipping around one night. The fan that used to watch wrestling during the boom period but doesn't watch anymore. And a fan like that would see Joe and think that he looks as much a backyarder as a stereotypical "professional wrestler". I'm sure the crowd that you're referring to would embrace him more if he was booked better ... but I'm thinking of the person that doesn't even watch long enough to see how he's booked.

 

Is it speculation? Yes, I haven't done any research or polling or anything. Just going by what I, as a former wrestling fan who occasionally pays half attention to a few minutes of a TV show each week, sees and thinks.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Somewhere there's a paradox here of "fans that don't watch WWE not liking Joe because he doesn't look like the WWE guys...that these fans aren't watching for a reason"...

 

[AlaskanHero 0]

I sort of get what they mean. If John Q. Casualfan was flipping channels and happened upon TNA and saw Joe, they'd probably go "Who's this fat ass wrestling Kurt Angle (or whoever)?" and turn the channel. However, it could also work the other way with the same John Q. Casualfan seeing Joe, go "Who's this fat ass wrestling (insert ex-WWE/WCW guy here)?", then see him hit a tope or something like that and stick around for a bit to see if he does anything else cool.

 

Then they'd see something stupid that TNA usually does on every Impact and turn the channel.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I kinda see the point...but it just seems like a no win thing to argue with. Something is either too indy (which since all there is in between WWE and indys is....TNA) means not- WWE enough. Or it's a WWE ripoff/castoff.

 

So the problem with TNA is that they try to be WWE.

 

And the other problem is that they're not WWE enough.

 

...

 

For what it's worth...the only guys in TNA that my non-wrestling watching friends react to when forced to watch what I'm watching are Styles and Joe. Two guys that aren't at all WWE guys.

 

Too bad their too indyish...

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I think if Joe just changed up his tights he'd be just fine. True, he doesn't have much personality, but really: his gimmick is that of a no-nonsense ass-kicker. Why does he need to be booked as anything other than somebody who can come in, kill you, and then leave? It's true that it doesn't help his cause of being pushed as a bonafide main eventer in a non-indy without having a semblance of a captivating personality, but it could also be that the writers are trying to pigeonhole him into being a generic babyface instead of doing the right thing and letting his own personality shine through. I come to this thought following the whole bullshit "you harmed my girlfriend" angle they did during the feud with Kurt Angle. It made no sense, especially since there was no build-up besides about a 30-second backstage vignette that even said Joe had friends, much less a lover.

 

Step 1: Have the writers work WITH Joe, not FOR Joe, in developing his character.

 

Step 2: Find a better pair of tights. Hell, since he's meant to be a "real" fighter, why not a pair of trunks similar to boxing/MMA?

 

Step 3: Treat him as a champion, not just an indy guy who happens to be in the #2 company in the States and hold their top belt.

[Jingus 0]

I've never understood the phrase "too indy" when talking about something driving away casual fans. Wouldn't you have to be a pretty serious wrestling fan who's seen a lot of alternative products to even know what "too indy" would mean in the first place?

 

As for Joe's tights, I don't see what the big deal is between Steve Austin tights and Bob Holly tights. It's a couple extra inches of fabric, so what. Though I do wonder if Joe might look better in a singlet, one tailored to help hide his gut while still showcasing his thick shoulders and giant legs. As to his weight, how is he supposed to cut that down? The guy can wrestle hour-long matches, so clearly he spends plenty of time in the gym and is in great cardiovascular shape. He just seems to be one of those guys who's genetically predisposed towards being fat. Haven't we all known That Girl who you feel sorry for because she works out regularly and is always on a diet, but still stays fat? And think about it, aside from maybe Jimmy Snuka, how many Samoan wrestlers have ever had a six-pack of shredded abs?

[The Truthiness 0]

I have no problem with Joe being fat, it seems like Joe is ashamed of being fat himself.

[RedJed 0]

I have no problem with Joe being fat, it seems like Joe is ashamed of being fat himself.

 

Huh?

[The Truthiness 0]

I have no problem with Joe being fat, it seems like Joe is ashamed of being fat himself.

ts to the

Huh?

 

He wears his tights up to his nipples, which to me seems like he's trying to hide his gut. He tries to do too many things, instead of focusing on perfecting one thing, which could get him over huge. It's like he's doing all the moves, and all the silly puro trademarks to compensate for something, what he might be trying to compensate for is being overweight. It's like he is saying "Hey I'm fat but I can do a tope, a lot of Puro moves, and wrestle for 60 minutes". Or he might be compensating for his lack of charisma.

 

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Or hey might be doing them because that's what the RoH audience wanted to see, which is what he got used to...

[nl5xsk1 0]

I've never understood the phrase "too indy" when talking about something driving away casual fans. Wouldn't you have to be a pretty serious wrestling fan who's seen a lot of alternative products to even know what "too indy" would mean in the first place?

I was using "indy" as a euphemism for "amateur" or "cheap".

 

If you were a fan in the boom years that stopped watching when the boom busted, and had only seen WWF or WCW, and flipped past TNA, you'd see a 6-sided ring, in what looks to be a compartively small arena. So it's immediately starting off looking more amateurish than what you'd seen in the past. And if you saw Joe doing a promo or what have you, you'd see a guy that looks out-of-shape (which I'll reiterate I'm not holding against him in this conversation, because there have been a lot of out out-of-shape wrestlers in the past), wearing a frat-guy necklace and tights that look like swimming trunks.

 

So you as a former fan might not use the word "indy", but (IMHO) you'd think that he & TNA look less professional, less polished, than what you'd seen in the past.

 

And the tights? I hate to word it this way, but they're not tight enough. Not that I want to see Joe in a second skin, but it's how wrestling trunks normally look: tight. Other than when it's part of a gimmick (such as wearing jean-shorts like Cena), you normally don't see a pro wrestler in trunks like Joe's.

 

Hey, it's just one person's opinion, and obviously most of you disagree with it.

[The Truthiness 0]

Or hey might be doing them because that's what the RoH audience wanted to see, which is what he got used to...

 

Exactly what I've been saying, than you got to take in consideration that Kurt also "taught him how to work". So you have a guy who trained himself to use a stiff and head dropping offense, than he was influenced by Angle's "Go, Go" mindset, on top of that he has a generic look, and a lack of personality. It's hard to take him seriously. It's not all his fault, the booking hasn't done him any favors, but you have to question, is it possible to book someone to have authentic charisma. I don't think so. Joe was at his best when he was beating the shit out of the X division roster, the reason that worked was because it was an expansion of what he was doing in ROH. TNA to its credit did a superb job in getting him over, because they didn't have to do much but let him go out there and destroy cruiserweights, and it didn't take him 30 minutes to do it like in ROH. Joe was one of the best reasons to watch TNA in those days, than October 2006 came around and Angle killed all the potential Joe had with a headbut.

 

It's not to late for Joe, he's still young.

[flair4thegold 0]

Vader

Dusty Rhodes

Jim Duggan

Larry Zybisko

Just a few guys I can think of that were "over" dispite their physique.

[The Truthiness 0]

Vader

Dusty Rhodes

Jim Duggan

Larry Zybisko

Just a few guys I can think of that were "over" dispite their physique.

 

They all had something Joe still doesn't have.

 

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

Larry Zbysko? The only thing he had Joe didn't was an arsenal of rest holds.

[Mike wanna be 0]

Vader

Dusty Rhodes

Jim Duggan

Larry Zybisko

Just a few guys I can think of that were "over" dispite their physique.

They all had something Joe still doesn't have.

A catchy nickname?

 

[The Truthiness 0]

Vader

Dusty Rhodes

Jim Duggan

Larry Zybisko

Just a few guys I can think of that were "over" dispite their physique.

They all had something Joe still doesn't have.

A catchy nickname?

 

And a personality.

[cd213 0]

I've never understood the phrase "too indy" when talking about something driving away casual fans. Wouldn't you have to be a pretty serious wrestling fan who's seen a lot of alternative products to even know what "too indy" would mean in the first place?

 

As for Joe's tights, I don't see what the big deal is between Steve Austin tights and Bob Holly tights. It's a couple extra inches of fabric, so what. Though I do wonder if Joe might look better in a singlet, one tailored to help hide his gut while still showcasing his thick shoulders and giant legs. As to his weight, how is he supposed to cut that down? The guy can wrestle hour-long matches, so clearly he spends plenty of time in the gym and is in great cardiovascular shape. He just seems to be one of those guys who's genetically predisposed towards being fat. Haven't we all known That Girl who you feel sorry for because she works out regularly and is always on a diet, but still stays fat? And think about it, aside from maybe Jimmy Snuka, how many Samoan wrestlers have ever had a six-pack of shredded abs?

 

Rhino does just fine in a singlet like that, and he still comes off a bad ass. I can see your point, and at first it would look weird (as someone that has been watching him for a few years in the shorts he has now), but it would come off as regular after a few shows. That might be something to try, and could help him. He is a capable worker with some charisma, but only works well in that "go out there and beat someone else up" role as others have pointed out. I enjoyed him the first year of his TNA run. I didn't see much of him in ROH, but from what I saw wasn't impressed until he came to TNA. Then he started talking and became a face, and I just didn't care about him much. He needs that edge back.

[Old School 0]

Samoa Joe has more personality than Larry Zybysko ever had...and if the argument is really Joe can't get over because of the clothes he wears, if anyone really believes that, no offense, but you're a fucking idiot.

[The Truthiness 0]

Samoa Joe has more personality than Larry Zybysko ever had...and if the argument is really Joe can't get over because of the clothes he wears, if anyone really believes that, no offense, but you're a fucking idiot.

This is just flat out wrong.

 

[RedJed 0]

Samoa Joe has more personality than Larry Zybysko ever had...and if the argument is really Joe can't get over because of the clothes he wears, if anyone really believes that, no offense, but you're a fucking idiot.

This is just flat out wrong.

 

Actually it's not. I don't know what you are defining as "personality" but your criteria seems to be a bit different than the norm.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I told you RedJed. His criteria for things is things he likes vs. things he doesn't like.

 

 

[The Truthiness 0]

Samoa Joe has more personality than Larry Zybysko ever had...and if the argument is really Joe can't get over because of the clothes he wears, if anyone really believes that, no offense, but you're a fucking idiot.

This is just flat out wrong.

 

Actually it's not. I don't know what you are defining as "personality" but your criteria seems to be a bit different than the norm.

 

Just watch one of the AWA shows that come on ESPN Classic, them segments with him browbeating The Rockers is an example of personality. His whole Ninja gimmick was full of personality. Even his feud with Scott Hall and Louie Spicolli are examples of this. Can you show me an example of Joe having more personality than Zybysko?

 

Also Bps21, dude if you don't want to have anything to do with me that is fine, because I feel the same way about you, but I don't dedicate every post to insult you. I mean if you don't care what I think, than why must you try to bait me? I don't like you and you don't like me, everybody gets that, you don't have to try to start shit in every thread I'm in. Everything on this board is about what people "Like and don't like", they are called opinions. The only fact in this thread is that ratings dropped while Joe was champion. Is it Joe's fault? I don't know, but I think it's more than fair to look in his direction, and think maybe; just maybe he had something to do with it. TNA's booking has been awful for a long time, but the ratings stayed the same, so obviously people was still watching the show, no matter how stupid the booking was. Jingus posted some numbers that even Eric Young gain viewers during his segments, it was reported that the Knock Outs have gained viewers, so we know it isn't their fault. I doubt it's Angle's fault, seeing as he walked around the Impact Zone looking for his clothes as the company's Champion, and they stayed at a 1.0-1.1, so it wasn't his fault. Lethal, Sharkboy, and Curry Man are too some the best part of the show, so I doubt they were the reason also. I think it's safe to say that AJ Styles, Tomko, Sting, Christian, Storm, 3d, LAX, Roode and Booker T have not done anything offensive enough (Well noting outside of the normal TNA stupidity, that we all come to know and love) to make the viewers change the channel in the last 6 months.

 

The only glaring different thing TNA has done is the biggest "different thing" they've done in 3 years, and that is give Joe the title. Shockingly enough the ratings drop, hmm. It kind of makes you wonder, is it possible that people don't want to watch Joe as Champion? Well there is evidence to support that theory in this very thread. A few people (not just me) have given examples of them watching TNA with "casual fans", and they shitted on Joe.

 

Did people wait for Joe to get the Championship, and than just stop watching after TNA that, because they knew the booking team would fuck up his championship reign from the jump? I can see people believing that, I don't buy it, but I can see it. The reason I don't buy it, is because TNA has fucked up every World Champion they have had, since BFG 2006. But guess what? People kept watching.

 

 

Did Scott Steiner calling him a fat piece of shit and him doing nothing turn people off? There might be something to this one. Oddly enough though, I was the 1st one to say something about that segment, and I said that if booking was going to let that happen, it's a sign that they have no Faith in Joe. When I said that, you (Bps21) were all over my case then. Now here we are 1 month later, and everybody is saying the same thing, so I assume they agreed with me. But ultimately I don't think that is the reason people stopped watching, Steiner has buried everybody in TNA on the mic one time or the other, and people kept watching afterwards.

 

 

Is Joe a boring character? This is what I believe, and like I said even the people who disagree with me a lot, have come to agree with me on this. Yeah they say it's booking fault, and I say that's all Joe's fault, but we all agree he is boring nonetheless. I believe they blame booking because TNA are morons, and it's easy to blame them when a character fails, I can understand that and to a degree I believe that. But TNA has done dumb booking with guys like Styles, Angle, LAX, 3D, Booker T, and Tomko. Yet they all remained over, and kept themselves over despite the booking, their characters still developed and didn't become stale. Joe has been the same character for close to 6 years, and nobody has seen any changes in his wrestling, he's added nothing to his character, and he still looks like he should be wrestling in a recreational center, but strangely enough, the company he use to wrestle for in that recreational center, has been 10 times better since he left and it wasn't like people stopped buying DVD'S or going to shows because Joe wasn't there. Which brings me full circle to where I started, Joe is a good character, and he could become better. But as it is now, he is too characterless and doesn't have a strong enough personality to assemble a company around. So it's not out of the realm of possibilities that people don't want to watch a company with him as Champion.