Talking Quarterbacks

[The Niggardly King 0]

Man it's gonna be so fucking weird to see Kerry Collins pass Montana for all-time passing yards this year... if he can stay healthy that is.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Even if he does stay healthy and start all year, I could see him coming up juuuuust short. I know he only needs 200 yards a game, but he didn't quite average that last season.

[Wally Balls 0]

Man it's gonna be so fucking weird to see Kerry Collins pass Montana for all-time passing yards this year... if he can stay healthy that is.

 

I know that this has been mentioned before, but it's not like Joe Montana put up overly-impressive numbers. He won 4 Super Bowls yes, but his regular season numbers were merely average.

[phoenixrising 0]

Man it's gonna be so fucking weird to see Kerry Collins pass Montana for all-time passing yards this year... if he can stay healthy that is.

 

I know that this has been mentioned before, but it's not like Joe Montana put up overly-impressive numbers. He won 4 Super Bowls yes, but his regular season numbers were merely average.

 

Montana's numbers look average when compared to today's. Teams really didn't throw as much as they do now. Montana was in the top ten in passing yardage nine times (never led), top 10 in passer rating 13 times (led twice and his 1989 was the highest rated season in history until Young's 1994), and top 10 in touchdowns eight times (led twice). Montana missed one full season and parts of two others with injuries, and lost almost half of 1982 and a few games in 1987 to strikes. Compared to Manning and Marino his numbers look average but they were above average in his era.

 

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Even if he does stay healthy and start all year, I could see him coming up juuuuust short. I know he only needs 200 yards a game, but he didn't quite average that last season.

 

With another 4000 yard season, Manning will be behind only Favre, Marino, and Elway on the all-time passing yards list. He's currently at 45,628, behind Vinny Testaverde.

 

Just to illustrate how far he is above everyone else in the league, of active players, Collins is next at 37,363, and then McNabb at 29 and change.

 

Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson(!), and Trent Green are all around the same ballpark, within 1000 yards of each other. After that is Jon Kitna, and then Tom Brady, who is one year younger than Manning.

 

Discussion question: Vinny Testaverde is top ten all time in passing yards, touchdowns, attempts, and completions. Every other QB in that statistical tier is in the HOF. Does Testaverde belong in Canton?

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Maybe he can get an honorable mention for Years of Service and a pension or something instead. In 20 NFL seasons, he had all of maybe 3 years I'd call good, and another 4-5 I think you could call decent. And people used to think he was color-blind cause he was so bad! Man, I love Vinny.

[Wally Balls 0]

Man it's gonna be so fucking weird to see Kerry Collins pass Montana for all-time passing yards this year... if he can stay healthy that is.

 

I know that this has been mentioned before, but it's not like Joe Montana put up overly-impressive numbers. He won 4 Super Bowls yes, but his regular season numbers were merely average.

 

Montana's numbers look average when compared to today's. Teams really didn't throw as much as they do now. Montana was in the top ten in passing yardage nine times (never led), top 10 in passer rating 13 times (led twice and his 1989 was the highest rated season in history until Young's 1994), and top 10 in touchdowns eight times (led twice). Montana missed one full season and parts of two others with injuries, and lost almost half of 1982 and a few games in 1987 to strikes. Compared to Manning and Marino his numbers look average but they were above average in his era.

 

I just hate how iconic Joe Montana is and I especially hate how QB's are rated based on SB rings. Montana never threw for over 4000 yards in a season. Only threw for 30+ TD's in a season once. Jeff Garcia did that three years in a row with a FAR LESS talented offense. Vinny Testaverde has better career numbers. With Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, John Taylor...there isn't any reason why Montana's numbers are as mediocre as they are.

 

Just a list of guys who threw for over 4000 yards in the 80's

 

Dan Marino ('84 -5084 yards, '85 - 4137 yards, '86 - 4746 yards, '88 - 4434 yards)

Dan Fouts ('80 - 4715 yards, '81- 4802 yards)

Phil Simms ('84 - 4044 yards)

Don Majkowski ('89 - 4318 yards)

Neil Lomax ('84 - 4614 yards)

Jim (Chris) Everett ('89 - 4310 yards)

Jay Schroeder ('86 - 4109 yards)

Lynn Dickey ('83 - 4458 yards)

Bill Kenney ('83 - 4348 yards)

Brian Sipe ('80 - 4132 yards)

 

In a nutshell, I think Joe Montana ranks up there as one of the most overrated QBs of all time. Right up there with Troy Aikman.

[Wally Balls 0]

Even if he does stay healthy and start all year, I could see him coming up juuuuust short. I know he only needs 200 yards a game, but he didn't quite average that last season.

 

With another 4000 yard season, Manning will be behind only Favre, Marino, and Elway on the all-time passing yards list. He's currently at 45,628, behind Vinny Testaverde.

 

Just to illustrate how far he is above everyone else in the league, of active players, Collins is next at 37,363, and then McNabb at 29 and change.

 

Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson(!), and Trent Green are all around the same ballpark, within 1000 yards of each other. After that is Jon Kitna, and then Tom Brady, who is one year younger than Manning.

 

Discussion question: Vinny Testaverde is top ten all time in passing yards, touchdowns, attempts, and completions. Every other QB in that statistical tier is in the HOF. Does Testaverde belong in Canton?

 

He never won a Super Bowl, so that will be everyones justification for him not getting in, which is utter shit. He started his career with the Tampa Bay Bucs when they were laughing stock of the NFL so his numbers there aren't going to look impressive. Steve Young had a bitch of a time in Tampa as well and he couldn't fix that mess. Fortunately for Steve, he was able to go to a Super Bowl contending team. Vinny's gotten into the playoffs a few times and once to the AFC championship. Also to menion what you pointed out, he put up better numbers than Joe Montana.

 

If it were up to me, yes Testaverde would be a Hall of Famer. Problem is he isn't as iconic as Montana, Favre, Young, Aikman, Elway, etc. so he'll be left out unfortunately.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

He never won a Super Bowl, so that will be everyones justification for him not getting in, which is utter shit. He started his career with the Tampa Bay Bucs when they were laughing stock of the NFL so his numbers there aren't going to look impressive. Steve Young had a bitch of a time in Tampa as well and he couldn't fix that mess. Fortunately for Steve, he was able to go to a Super Bowl contending team. Vinny's gotten into the playoffs a few times and once to the AFC championship. Also to menion what you pointed out, he put up better numbers than Joe Montana.

 

If it were up to me, yes Testaverde would be a Hall of Famer. Problem is he isn't as iconic as Montana, Favre, Young, Aikman, Elway, etc. so he'll be left out unfortunately.

I think Montana's somewhat overrated as well, but Vinny's nowhere near him for the reasons I laid out after Agent's post. His better numbers took longer and were way less consistent. Montana had half a dozen seasons you could call legitimately great, another 4 or 5 good ones, and of course the 4 Super Bowls. Better completion percentage, better career QB rating by 18 points, better everything. Yeah, Vinny played on a lot of bad teams, but he also just sucked often; in the 14 seasons where he got significant playing time, he threw more TDs than INTs a whopping 6 years. I only remember seeing his play in the mid-90s, but I feel safe putting him in the Hall of Okay at best.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Testaverde had a solid team when he was playing with Cleveland/Baltimore in the 90's and couldnt do much with them. Like Edwin says, most of his numbers are due to long tenure as a player. Montana had better QB mechanics, desicion making, among other things.

 

Montana's numbers may not look impressive compared to a Manning/Marino, but his accomplishments speak in much better volume then his stats. 8x Pro Bowl, 3x All-Pro, 2x Superbowl MVP, 2x Regular Season MVP, etc. There is problay no QB that can match up with Montana in terms of accomplishments/awards. Also if you want to look at stats, compare his touchdown total to interception total... Which is very impressive.

[Kinetic 0]

In a nutshell, I think Joe Montana ranks up there as one of the most overrated QBs of all time. Right up there with Troy Aikman.

 

I think this is kind of an asinine argument. Neither guy needed to put up Dan Marino numbers because they had talented teams around them, as the combined 7 Super Bowl wins will attest to. Generally speaking, an NFL QB throwing for 400+ yards on a routine basis is more based on need than anything else, as it's usually a sign that the run game and defense aren't any good. And it's not like Aikman or Montana were Trent Dilfer-esque "game managers" or anything. Both guys were really integral parts of offenses that won multiple championships.

[Wally Balls 0]

In a nutshell, I think Joe Montana ranks up there as one of the most overrated QBs of all time. Right up there with Troy Aikman.

 

I think this is kind of an asinine argument. Neither guy needed to put up Dan Marino numbers because they had talented teams around them, as the combined 7 Super Bowl wins will attest to. Generally speaking, an NFL QB throwing for 400+ yards on a routine basis is more based on need than anything else, as it's usually a sign that the run game and defense aren't any good. And it's not like Aikman or Montana were Trent Dilfer-esque "game managers" or anything. Both guys were really integral parts of offenses that won multiple championships.

 

Are you playing devil's advocate or do you really believe that? You said it yourself, they both had good teams around them. It's really easy to win games when you have numerous guys on both sides of the ball to depend on. Given the coaching philosophy and team talent, it's reasonable to think that a lot of other guys could have done exactly what Montana and Aikman did if put in their situation. Steve Young did it perfectly. I'm a Cowboys fan, but I think Aikman was as big a freeloader as anyone thats ever played)

 

I'm not saying these guys weren't good, but it's easy to win games when you don't have to do it by yourself. It's more impressive when QBs do more with less. An example would be Donovan Mcnabb. He's done more with less offensive talent than just about any QB I've seen.

 

Just a brief list of QBs that I would take over Aikman and Montana(in no particular order)

 

- Dan Marino (based on his massive numbers and the fact that he got those numbers without any real talent on the offensive side. Yeah he had Mark Clayton, but I think Clayton's success had more to do with Marino, than the other way around.)

 

- Brett Favre (Regardless of how much he's hated around here, the man started his first game in 1992 and hasn't missed a game since he retired. Not to mention he now has pretty much every passing record there is to be had without having a consistent offense. He threw a lot of interceptions, but he also threw 464 touchdowns compared to Montana's 273.

 

-Peyton Manning (Like Montana and Aikman, he had a great offense around him. The difference is that Manning put up way more numbers with his good offense than Aikman and Montana could do with theirs)

 

-Donovan McNabb (Like mentioned earlier, did more with less offensive talent that perhaps anyone. No consistent running game as well as no consistet target to throw to.)

[The Niggardly King 0]

Bringing up Kerry Collins makesthe shittiest of posters come out I guess.

 

 

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Are you playing devil's advocate or do you really believe that? You said it yourself, they both had good teams around them. It's really easy to win games when you have numerous guys on both sides of the ball to depend on. Given the coaching philosophy and team talent, it's reasonable to think that a lot of other guys could have done exactly what Montana and Aikman did if put in their situation. Steve Young did it perfectly. I'm a Cowboys fan, but I think Aikman was as big a freeloader as anyone thats ever played)

 

I'm not saying these guys weren't good, but it's easy to win games when you don't have to do it by yourself. It's more impressive when QBs do more with less. An example would be Donovan Mcnabb. He's done more with less offensive talent than just about any QB I've seen.

 

There is more to being a QB then just stats. There was no betterQB at manging the game and the clock then Joe Montana. He didn't need huge stats, or a lazor arm like Marino or Manning. He made great desicions and won games, and when it all boils down to it thats what matters the most. Sure he had a great offense, but so did Manning, and Marino(apart from a shitty running game). Marino had a great offensive line that protected him, and two pro bowl level wide outs. Neither were as good of desicion makers as Montana was. I find it funny the one stat you fail to look at when talking about Montana is his passer rating and his interceptions.

 

- Brett Favre (Regardless of how much he's hated around here, the man started his first game in 1992 and hasn't missed a game since he retired. Not to mention he now has pretty much every passing record there is to be had without having a consistent offense. He threw a lot of interceptions, but he also threw 464 touchdowns compared to Montana's 273.

 

Favre started nearly a 100 games more then Montana, of course he's going to have better passing stats like passing yards, passing TD's and such. What he doesn't have Montana beat in is passer rating, superbowls, awards and accomplishments, interception/touchdown ratio, interception %, and completion %.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Exactly, EHME. Nothin'.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Ooops... Posted too soon.

 

There edited it.

[Guest Vitamin X]

That "awards/accomplishments" thing is fairly dubious, EHME. Favre is the only 3-time MVP in the league until Manning won his third last year, and they both got on the same amount of 1st team All-Pros. And yes while Favre threw a lot of interceptions, it's fairly obvious that he may not have had as many touchdowns if he didn't force as many throws as he did, either. Supposing Favre played/started the same amount of games as Montana, he still has him beat in passing yards, touchdowns, and even completion percentage (throw Favre's 99 and 2000 seasons out, and he has Montana beat by far). Of course, the argument's already been made that Montana played in a less pass-happy league than Favre did which is certainly true, but both players played in the same offense, or a slight variation of it.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Montana is someone who for a long time I thought was the best QB to ever play the game, and as I've learned more about it he's started sliding down the list for mostly the same reasons already listed in this thread. He was still a great QB, but if you watch the footage of both him and Steve Young, Young was the better player. I like using those two as an example as they were both on the same team so they were easier to compare. Young would have had multiple Super Bowls too, but he had stronger competition in the Jimmy Johnson Cowboys and later the Mike Holmgren Packers.

 

Elway & Marino were better than Montana too.

 

And yes while Favre threw a lot of interceptions, it's fairly obvious that he may not have had as many touchdowns if he didn't force as many throws as he did, either.

 

This is true. He's made his career off of throwing TDs into double and triple coverage.

 

EDIT: Oh and Manning is better than Brady for pretty much same reasons (aside from the one year Brady just exploded) as Marino is better than Montana. Manning might be the best QB to ever play the game.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

I thought this thread would be about quarterbacks who can talk...which is hopefully all of them.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

The split thread should have been called QBeez Nuts.

[Guest Vitamin X]

I thought this thread would be about quarterbacks who can talk...which is hopefully all of them.

Guess we can't bring Vince Young into this discussion, then.

[CanadianChris 0]

Put Marino on those Niners teams and Montana on those Dolphins teams, and this wouldn't even be an argument.

[Cartman 0]

EDIT: Oh and Manning is better than Brady for pretty much same reasons (aside from the one year Brady just exploded) as Marino is better than Montana. Manning might be the best QB to ever play the game.

 

 

Wait, what? Until Brady had that incredible season he was throwing to a bunch of nobody's and certainly didnt have a Marvin Harrison.

[The Niggardly King 0]

My pick for best Quarterback would be John Elway.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I will vary on the number one guy depending on my mood, but right now I would go with Johnny Unitas. His 34 TDs in 1959 (!) was probably the most impressive single season ever for a QB. Keep in mind this was a 12 game season and an era that was notoriously run happy. When Brady hit 50, he did it in over 200 more attempts. Unitas was voted to ten consecutive Pro Bowls (Favre just tied him this year for most by a QB and Favre's weren't consecutive), was a five time first team All-Pro (most ever for a QB), three time NFL MVP, holds the NFL record for most consecutive games with a TD pass (47), threw for over 40,000 yards in his career during an era where that was completely unheard of, and won three championships (including Super Bowl V and The Greatest Game Ever Played).

 

Basically he accomplished everything a QB could accomplish.