Damaramu

I don't see me proving any ignorance. I said I've had problems with people that looked like him so that's why I said he looked like a punk.............it's not like I intended it to be mean. I have no problem with the guy, I don't know him. I just said he looked like some punks I've dealt with........are you just looking for a flamewar for no reason now? Sad. And I don't want to mess with you IDRM. You are much to strong for the mere mortal that is me.

Of course not, since football players don't try to be entertaining. They try to win games. It doesn't matter if they're entertaining or not. Wrestlers however try to be entertaining. Comprende? God, would you stop saying that. You've "shown" that you have screwy taste and that you don't like the kip-up. Your reponse to every single one of his points is "Well yeah, I guess that's true, but um.... er........the KIP UP SUCKS!" Hmm.....well if you meet all of those criteria then you do have an entertaining match. To be considered good the wrestler pretty much has to meet those criteria. And I've proven that HBK doesn't. Hey I wouldn't be arguing if someone hadn't made the false argument of "HBK is one of the Top 5 workers in the WWE!" which I've proven isn't true. There are plenty of wrestlers that are better than him. Have they gotten a chance to show it in the WWE? Nope because HBK is a main eventer and he gets more chances than the lower card. He's able to have a 25 minute match....someone like Paul London isn't despite the fact he'd blow HBK away if he did based on his past matches. I've said all I can. I've provided logical arguments and proven my point. Not my fault if you can't see that.

Definitely. And let's not forget this: It's well documented that various football players have played through one or more quarters with a broken foot. Why? Because their adrenaline was so high that they didn't even notice they had broken a bone in the first place. It's true - look it up. But I've given up trying to argue with Damaramu for now. He refuses to look at logic, refuses to accept that people may have different opinions than he has, and keeps regurgitating the same points over and over (I can't recall seeing someone type the word "kip-up" so many times). I'm finished with arguing those points in this topic - I'd like to think that SOMEBODY has opened up their mind to a viewpoint that contrasts from their own. But I'm getting nothing from Dama. Gee I could say the same thing about you. You've basically spent this entire argument like "Well.......it's subjective! WAAAAHHHH! I LOVE HBK! IT'S SUBJECTIVE! MY OPINION! WAAAH!" But I'm done arguing with you. You obviously can't look at logic and see what's going on. I'd like to think that maybe someone opened their minds and took on a new viewpoint but I'm getting nothing from NY Untouchable.

Eli Manning better watch his back. Because when he's not looking *WHAM!* I hit him in the back of the head with a chair and sign my NFL contract. I'm so dreading this HBK/Benoit match next week. I can see it now........Benoit will get a pop....Shawn will get a mixed reaction....Shawn will get pissy that he lost his pops and do as many flashy moves as possible meanwhile no selling everything Benoit does. Benoit will look like a bitch and the crowd will slowly start to turn to HBK until they're all chanting his name at which case he'll kip up after 10-germans in a row and superkick Benoit to hell. I know it's going to happen.

Umm......I've never been punched out in my life......so yeah..........

Well I'm just angry b/c I think the WM main event should be a 1 on 1 match.....and none of this triple threat bullshit. I'd be pissed if it was some other smark wrestling god interjecting himself. The fact that it's HBK does piss me off a little bit more....but still.........1 ON 1!!!!!! I did like hearing the fans boo HBK. Hopefully Vince will take this as "They don't want a triple threat!" which was what I was getting out of it. Oh and who's waiting for HBK to try and steal the show against Benoit and get the fans chanting his name and booing Benoit?

Fine NY here's your response: I gave you what the goal of a good wrestler is. What things go into making a match and wrestler good. It's not my fault if you can't accept that. I will tell that person that they are a moron for thinking that. There opinion can be that Jones is their favorite wrestler and he entertains them the most but to say that he is the best wrestler is a fallacy. Hey guess what? I like football teams that lose. That entertains me. So The San Diego Chargers are the best football team in the NFL. And you can't tell me I'm wrong because it's all subjective and my opinion anyways. SEE!? It doesn't work like that. All of that sellling means nothing if he can't sell it longterm. I mean if I were to get into a car wreck and scream in pain because my leg is hurt then suddenly kip up and forget that I'm hurt people would be looking at me like I'm a monster....so why is it any different for Shawn? Just once I'd like to see his back worked over the entire match and then him go for his miracle kip-up and suddenly fall back flat on his back b/c his back is to injured to do such a thing. The fans would shit themselves and I'd shit myself that HBK actually just did smart work. All of his matches tell the same story or a shitty story. Yeah he targeted HHH's knee but in the end it went nowhere. That's the point......the bulk of HBK's matches have no point. They're just Shawn getting beat up and then making flashy comebacks to pop the crowd. That's not a story, that's an entertainment exhibition. Hell I give him credit for the Survivor Series match but I think anyone could've pulled that off given the circumstances. Yes he does meet this criteria. Unless you mean protect his opponent's heat...which he doesn't. They call him the showstealer for a reason.....all the focus goes on him. Oh he didn't try to gorilla press Batista! By all means that makes him the smartest worker in the world! Get real. Michales matches aren't believable because he should by all means be dead after the ass beating he recieves. He could put on the best match ever and then totally destroy it all with that silly kip-up. That destroys the ENTIRE match. It makes what we just watched meaningless. Yes Michaels can work the crowd. I have said this before. However just meeting that one thing does not make him a good wrestler. I knew another guy that could whip the crowd into a frenzy better than Michaels and he wasn't a good worker at all. His name was Hulk Hogan I believe. And I've already covered that his matches aren't believable and they don't make any sense at all. I've never seen a football player injure himself and then get a second wind and suddenly rush for 100 more yards. That's pretty much what HBK does. That's why you think he's a good wrestler but as me and others have shown....you're wrong. Who your favorite wrestler is *is* an opinion. But what makes a wrestler good or not is GASP not an opinion! Get it through your head! It's not all subjective. That's a crutch for someone that can't take the fact that their wrestler isn't as good as they think he is. Yes he can entertain you and nobody can take that away from you because it's your opinion but what makes a good wrestler is GASP not an opinion!

mook? o_O haha yeah.. this was one of our 'going away' parties, so a little bit after this we seriously just had one last goodbye... or gropefest, whichever sounds better. :-) I don't think I look like a punk as Damaramu said tho >.< Yes you do! Your face just screams arrogance! I mean......just look at yourself! Maybe it's because I've had bad experiences punching out guys that look like you.......

No they were all pretty much the same. I didn't feel any of this supposed drama. Actually HBK does the same story everytime and the only time I've actually seen it entertain me was when he had to fight off Christian, Jericho, and Orton. The Randy Orton one was Shawn taking control and smacking the new guy around. The Ric Flair one had no damn story.....it was one of the most boring and pointless matches I've ever seen along with the RVD match. And yes the matches with HHH were HHH beating up Shawn and HHH is a big guy. His style sucks. He does a bunch of flashy moves with no substance and no reason. I've watched it for years and hated it for years. It makes zero sense in the context of the match leads to huge amounts of no selling and it's repetitive......you know how every HBK match is going to turn out. I've gotten to the point where I can call the kip-up. Every HBK match watched at my house between me and my friends is full of "OH GOD DAMMIT!" right before and after the kip-up b/c we know what's coming. The match wasn't a typical HBK affair. Not to mention the fact that Jericho has been known to carry just about everybody he faces(kane, hhh, mark henry, etc.). The match made more sense than a typical HBK match and was much easier to watch without having to drive trucks through the logic hole. So please tell me, I'm quite interested in how you think HBK carried the match. Because if you have no proof(like you have no proof that he's a good wrestler) then you are making quite the idiotic statement. Well you can't seem to get it through your thick skull. Paul London's best match is better than HBK's best match. His matches from ROH with the other workers who are better than HBK(Daniels, Dragon, etc.) are better than anything that HBK has put together. Paul London's matches are just flat out better than HBK's. Well first of all you're argument is flawed because the WWE style SUCKS and it is nearly impossible to produce a truly classic match under that style. Only the true greats such as Benoit can really squeeze 5-stars out of that style. So yes if given 26 minutes and the WWE Main Event style Paul London would probably not have as good of a match because his legs would be cut out from under him.......the style sucks...plain and simple. Good London matches!? Get yourself some Ring of Honor son! His street fight with Michael Shane puts the HHH/HBK street fight to shame. I don't know why you're trying to turn this into a Paul London argument. The argument is that HBK is not a Top 5 worker in the company. And I think that's been proven. He can't sell, his matches make zero sense, the psychology is non-existent! I've backed it up plenty but you haven't backed up why Shawn Michaels is so great yet besides saying "His matches entertain me! WHOO! It's all subjective! Everything is subjective!" Despite the fact that it's not subjective. Saying it's subjective is just a way of admitting defeat because you can't take the fact that your guy isn't as good as you think he is. Sorry.

You can come up with that story but the matches actually all told the same story. They all told the story of the little guy getting his ass beat by the big guy. The only time it changed was when he face someone smaller like Jericho....so I'll give you that one. But the rest of them were typical HBK "I get beat up and then make a super man comeback" matches. So no I have yet to see an HBK match that is impressive or meets the criteria. Maybe his match with Jericho but that can be more attributed to Jericho than HBK since Jericho is a better worker in the first place. Oh and for the last god damn time. PAUL LONDON HAS HAD GOOD MATCHES ELSEWHERE THUS MAKING HIM OVERALL A BETTER WORKER THAN HBK. I'M SURE IF HE WAS GIVEN A 26 MINUTE MAIN EVENT HE'D PRODUCE SOMETHING 10X BETTER THAN WHAT HBK CAN COME UP WITH BECAUSE HE'S DONE IT IN THE PAST. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!?

Dama, you keep repeating this phrase over and over. Go back one or two pages where I went over all YOUR criteria and wrote a lengthy response to why I think Shawn Michaels fits those standards and thus, by your criteria, would be a good wrestler. Please don't keep stating that no one is justifying it to you when you're not even reading the posts of the people that ARE trying to justify it. I have never seen an HBK match where he sold well or told a good story. All of his matches have the same story as a matter of fact "I get beat up for about 25 mintues then make a miracle comeback and one kick from my skinny leg kills the monster." That is not a good story.

No.....read the post I quoted. He said something about it.

Are any matches in the WWE realistic? EX: Buried Alive (Who the hell believes that shit) And that's why that match sucks. You know what I mean by realistic. I'm not saying that every moment has to look like a real fight(if that was true it'd be over after a few punches) but the match should following a logical progression and you should sell the body parts that are being worked over...not magically be unhurt because you've got this surge of jesus in you or something.

See.......they do need to have the world title match as a one on one. I think Rock vs. HBK would draw b/c of The Rock specifically. And throw in the fact that it's a dream matchup or something b/c he's facing HBK and the marks will buy it. And Orton and Foley should be one on one. It makes no sense for it to be a tag match. It makes sense for it to be a Street Fight with Orton going over in bloody fashion........that's what they're building to.

You said HBK wasn't even a GOOD wrestler. Go back and read one of my previous posts. I went through all your criteria to show why he WAS a good wrestler - and why he probably would be Top 5. If not top 5, at least Top 10. It's unfair to include Ultimo Dragon or Paul London on your list because, WWE wise, they haven't had any memorable matches at ALL. Even Chavo Guerrero hasn't had many memorable or above-average singles matches, and I recall seeing him on one of your lists. Because I don't think HBK meets enough of the criteria to be considered a good wrestler. The only ones he meets is "entertains the crowd" as a matter of fact. His matches aren't realistic, they have no psychology, they all tell the same story, and the selling is just appalling. Oh and once again......you say Michaels is one of the Top 5 in the WWE. Then you say we can't say Ultimo and London b/c they haven't done anything as good in the WWE. But you are still saying that Michaels is a better worker. But looking at the work these men have provided in the past we KNOW they are better than Michaels. Just because they don't get the same chance to put on a 20 minute match as Michaels doesn't automatically make him better.

That's the thing...it's YOUR criteria. You judge a wrestler based on that criteria. Doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. Like someone mentioned earlier, if there's a universal criteria you won't find anyone with a better grasp on it then guys like Meltzer, Keller, etc. And they all are pretty much in the opinion that Shawn is one of the greatest. No it's not just MY criteria. Like I said over the years I've learned that just about everyone that follows wrestling closely judges workers on THOSE guidelines. You can cry that it's subjective all you want but the fact is........it's not. The subjective argument is a weak argument for someone that can't actually defend why someone is better than someone else. "Why is he better?"......."Well it's all subjective! Yeah that's it.....it's all my personal preference!" Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I still have yet to hear any solid reasons as to WHY HBK is a Top 5 worker. Hey I'm not saying the guy didn't put on some entertaining matches but he definetly doesn't belong in a Top 50 of all time let alone a Top 5 right now.

Wait...I'm no American Football fan. Well...actually, it pretty much bores me compared to the equivalant (Rugby or Football...sorry...'Socca')... ...but, a team was lambasted for being bad sportsman for winning by too many points and embarassing another team? That is F'n hilarious! Isn't the whole point of American Football to win the game, or am I missing something. And if not, why would you not keep scoring if you were able to? Yeah it basically went like this. Texas A&M had beaten Oklahoma the previous year. Oklahoma was apparently embarassing anything that had touched them last year this year. As evidenced with a 50-something to 9 victory over Oklahom State. Then they went into the game with Texas A&M and just bitch slapped them like they were nothing. When it was obvious that OU wasn't losing this game in any way shape or form Bob Stoops should've pulled all of his starters and sent in the second team. Instead he kept his starters in there to prove a point and ended up racking the score up to 77-0. So yeah he was being unsportsman like. He was just pounding on them to prove a point.

I'd be killed by the media then. I love leaving my starting offense in blowout games so I can get my HB 200+ yards. You and me both buddy. Lee Corso gets on to me for running up the score often.

You monster....forgetting her like that. *shakes head* Anyways you are correct......I'll have it by the time RAW ends.

Problem is that most guys who wear skirts are kids that are "just trying to be different!" And kilts do rule......I see many men in Kilts at the Dropkick Murphy Concerts that I have attended. And they are monsters that could whip my ass. But what kind of skirts are they talking about? A kilt? Or a frilly number?

Quick recap.... A girl who lives with her mom (who had drug problems in the past) and her brother wants to be popular. To hang with the most popular girl in school she starts stealing & doing drugs & whoring it up. Things spiral downhill from there. Mom's worried, lots of fights, problems with the new friends, etc.... That's the general gist of it. Does she turn into an annoying bitch that thinks she knows everything?

Man Oklahoma.......*shakes head*.....so you've been in the tournament for the past 9 years and now you may not even make an appearance? I read this funny thing that said "Maybe OU should've sent their football team to play Texas since they seem to be able to beat Texas."

Dude......what isn't a billybump?......................eh I don't know either.

I still want to know.......

A football player's goal is to win games. A wrestler's goal is to...... entertain the hell out of the crowd. Dude, stop being such an asshole. Your opinions aren't facts. Listen to yourself. 1. Shawn (best match of the year with Jericho, best free TV match of the year with HHH. Don't like it? I don't give a shit.) 2. Benoit 3. Jericho 4. Eddie 5. Angle What!? Then how can you determine who's good at what they do and not!? Not everything in life comes down to an opinion and this is one of them. You can use your opinion to justify who's entertains you but I'm sorry who's a good worker and not is NOT an opinion. I mean through this logic you could say "Nathan Jones is the best worker ever b/c I'm entertained by shitty moves that hurt people." It doesn't work that way. You gotta have some kind of set guideline and over my 14 years watching wrestling I've picked that up as the criteria. Sorry if you can't take the fact that HBK isn't a very good worker. And I've yet to see anyone come up with a reason why he is besides "He pops the crowd and entertains me." Sorry but that's not justification. Also about the 50's-70's wrestlers.....what!? Those guys were probably better workers than a lot of the guys today! I don't get where you're getting that they didn't sell, they didn't work smart, and they didn't entertain the crowd.......they did all of those things and they did it good!