King Kamala

That is a bit harsh...maybe if you miss more than one without PMing someone your picks. I just want this to go faster! Make it go faster, mellow!

Tal Bachman- She's So High Duncan Sheik- Barely Breathing Fastball-The Way And to respond to BUTT, I think the aim is to balance nostalgia and quality. Nobody will be happy if Neutral Milk Hotel wins the damn thing and nobody will be happy if Vanilla Ice takes it all. It's all about finding a happy medium as with any of these tournaments and countdown lists. Nobody should get their panties in a knot over this, although someone certainly will.

Stupid slow going draft. It's been almost five days since I made a pick!

I feel that Ron Silver would have wanted me to post The Fox News obituary. What immediately comes to mind when I think of him is the commercials hyping the blink and you missed it television series Skin that played during The World Series 5-6 years ago. "His father is the district attorney!"

Hey, I wasn't nominated! I thought the faux-sucking up to Leena would do me in. Thank you TSM...and I promised myself I wouldn't vote in The Worst Poster tournament this year. Will say that there are a lot of posters in the tournament that are tolerable at worst and great at best. Can't account for taste at TSM anymore, I guess.

RIP Ron Silver

Man, me and Czech are so similar sometimes, it scares me.

Going to show some love to the Top 40 since that's what I was listening to back then. TLC- Creep Third Eye Blind- Semi Charmed Life (hell, feel free to nominate the less heralded but superior IMHO follow up "Never Let You Go" as well) Sugar Ray- Fly The Real McCoy- Run Away (for Czech) Dee-Lite- Groove Is In The Heart Daft Punk- Da Funk No Mercy- Where Do You Go? The Backstreet Boys- I Want It That Way Michael and Janet Jackson- Scream Michael Jackson- Do You Remember The Time? Jamiroquai- Virtual Insanity *NSync- I Want You Back Oasis- Don't Look Back In Anger Collective Soul-Shine The Fugees- Ready Or Not Blackstreet- No Diggity Sophie B. Hawkins- Damn! I Wish I Was Your Lover

If its '90s, the tournament may settle the debate that a friend and I had this morning while listening to Sirius/XM's 90s on 9 station. What's the most boring '90s Top 40 rock hit; "Breakfast at Tiffany's" by Deep Blue Something or "Everything You Want" by Vertical Horizon? I'd like to hear Czech's answer.

Fantastic. I was just about to write a post to the effect of "I'll do it if no one else will." I would have ran one of these sumbitches but I think the effort would have outweighed the satisfaction I got from doing this.

See, the thing is just because you're a talented entertainer (and believe it or not, Fallon is somewhat talented) doesn't mean you'll immediately make a great talk show host. It's one of the toughest on-screen jobs in entertainment. Look at all the talented comics/actors who've had really shitty talk shows; Chevy Chase, Martin Short, Jerry Lewis, I'd could go on all day. In fact, the precedent for well known entertainers doing talk shows is not good. Leno and Kimmel are both exceptions I guess but they were basically famous for being themselves. I remember Kimmel not being very good for the first year or so but that may have also been because of the fact that he had some awful guests his first year or so. Craig Ferguson got very good, very fast. It's hard to believe he only started three years ago or so. It's too bad he's already said he doesn't want to move up to 11:30.

I'm back so no need to pick for me. Damn, Pedro Morales and Adrian Adonis going almost back to back hurt. Pedro was my top choice for my next pick. Ah well. Completely reworking my strategy as we speak. Hopefully, I pick someone good!

Has anybody suggested that Czech's account was somehow deleted by an enraged Test fan who was upset about him making fun of his death? That's my theory anyways. Yeah, I don't know...I know Test wasn't that great but I never thought he was as terrible as most of the board did. I know being upset about "celebrities/wrestlers/athletes/people you don't know's" death isn't cool anymore on this board but damn...I didn't think we were outright celebrating them at this point!

I leave the board to catch up on Flight of The Concords and fall asleep and I miss Test dying and a bunch of the moderators accounts getting deleted (again). DAMMIT!

Wow **1/2? Kind of harsh...but I can't say I entirely disagree with where you're coming from and yeah, the crowd isn't really liking most of it at all. I still think a regular Bret-Shawn match that went 30-45 minutes would have been a perfectly suitable Mania event. To be fair to HTQ, the workrate of the WrestleManias he's done roundtables for hasn't been the greatest (for the most part...)

OOG's pick expires in about a half hour. Did anybody PM him? I was about to but then I figured someone else would do it and that it wasn't my job in the first place... Stupid weekends, slowing down the draft. Actually, I hope it makes it way back to me sometime before tomorrow afternoon because I'm going up to my camp for the night. Doubt that'll happen, I'll PM mellow and Brooklyn Zoo (just in case Mellow isn't around so things will keep moving) with my list.

Gagne cleared of charges No surprise here but I'm sure the nursing home will be in some trouble.

I'd still say X is a very good if not great WrestleMania. How is it any different than XX? Two great matches, another good one, and then a bunch of filler. Plus it has the MSG crowd. Has the WWE ever done a bad PPV from MSG? While it's ludicrous to say the show holds up as one of the best as a lot of people were saying 10-15 years ago, it's ludicrous to say it's "not good". Who ya crapping Cheech? I think I may have been a tad bit harsh on XV in the round table. Yes, it is one of the worst round tables. It is one of the worst Manias of all time for certain but I don't think it's one of the worst PPVs of all time and it's really not that much worse than a lot of PPVs of that era. At least, wrestling-wise, it's definitely a better show than IX. IX has a much stronger atmosphere though.

OriginalOrangeGoblin is up. Hawk was making up for some missed picks.

Oh god. Seether is the band that did the aformentioned hard rock cover of "Careless Whisper"? They're terrible. My cousin, whose favorite band is Slaughter (shitty '80s hair metal version) and loves Vanilla Ice's nu-metal material, says they're the worst band he's ever seen. That's saying something.

Hi folks, welcome to the third part of our six part series, going over the past, present, and future of WrestleMania. Today we're discussing an era of WrestleMania that I think few would describe as their favorites. Thus, we've got one of our grouchiest roundtables yet. It's also one of our most star studded panels yet...so let's introduce them. alkeiper: TSM Moderator. Founder of the WWE 24/7 folder. Hunter's Torn Quad: Long time, former head of the WWE folder. Sensei John Kreese: Leader of The Cobra Kai King Kamala Classic: Once saw a blimp Cheech Tremendous: Newest addition to the TSM moderating staff. King Kamala Classic: Time to o discuss my least favorite era of WM! Alkeiper: yeah, some uninspiring work in here Hunter’s Torn Quad: The cream of the crap, as it were. King Kamala Classic: yeah...two Manias in here that'd go in my Bottom 5...which ones they'll be...well we'll find out WrestleMania XI Alkeiper: Wrestlemania XI is a show that doesn't hold up well over time. Taylor/Bigelow was a treat due to the novelty of a one-off celebrity having a good match. Diesel/Michaels was good but not great. Hart/Backlund was a disappointment.The bigger problem is that the show did not have a big event feel. It was in a minor city and arena, and the celebrities were lackluster. Hunter’s Torn Quad: The main thing I remember from this is having the single worst rendition of the American national anthem in WM history. As for the wrestling, it wasn't that good. Shawn/Diesel was good but not great. Bigelow/LT was acceptable as a novelty, but as a match it was ropey. Everything else was sub-par and easily forgetable. Sensei John Kreese: Wrestlemania XI just shows how weak the WWF roster was at the time. Diesel vs HBK was the only superstar vs superstar match, as all the other top stars (Bret, Taker, Razor) were paired off with midcarders. LT was great for a celebrity wrestler but Vince failed to realize that he wasn't that popular outside of the NY area. I remember back in 4th grade, there was a lot of buzz among my friends (all sports fans, even though I wasn't) about LT wrestling after the angle at the Royal Rumble, but by the time the match rolled around, it was 2 and a half months later and nobody was talking about it. I don't know if that means anything w/r/t the drawing power of the match (though I do know it did a disappointing buyrate) but that's just my personal experience. Diesel vs Michaels was good, but it made Diesel look like a chump for HBK to get a 20-count on him while the ref was out. Piper ruined the Bret-Backlund match, Taker match was bad, and Yokozuna was a lame surprise. They tried to make up for the lack of stars on the roster by loading the show with celebs. Pam Anderson was a good choice, as she was a tabloid fixture due to her marriage to Tommy Lee, but I doubt she made a difference on the buyrate. When you have Pam, do you really need Jenny McCarthy? (For some reason the WWF called her "Jennifer McCarthy" in their promotion of the show despite her never to my knowledge using that name professionally.) I hated JTT back then, but hey, kids loved Home Improvement. Nick Tuturro is perhaps the most surprising and pointless Wrestlemania celeb ever. King Kamala Classic: I think wrestling-wise, this show is the definition of average. Besides Undertaker-King Kong Bundy, there's nothing that stood out and made me say "Wow, that sucked". But on the other hand, there was nothing all that great. As HTQ said, Shawn/Diesel was good but not as good as their future matches would be. Bigelow/LT is the Steamboat/Flair of matfches involving one off celebrities but obviously isn't a super great match otherwise. I seem to remember a lot of matches in the **-*** range on the show (Backlund-Hart, Jarrett-Ramon, Diesel-HBK, and Bam Bam-LT) The overall atmosphere was kind of dreary. Boy oh boy were the celebrity appearances lame. Though I was mildly amused by the one with Jonathan Taylor Thomas and Bob Backlund. Holding WrestleMania in Hartford (no offense to the residents of that fair city) was definitely a low point in the WWF's history. Just terrible. I know the WWF was probably at their low point popularity wise but they couldn't have found anywhere better than Hartford? And hey, wasn't this the WrestleMania where a Special Olympian sang the anthem? HTQ, ya big jerk! Seriously though, the fact that a Special Olympian was singing the National Anthem is pretty indicative of how far the WWF had fallen. I mean, great for the kid but does he have to do it at the biggest event of the year? I'd still say Rockin' Robin was a worse anthem singer though! Cheech Tremendous:. Let me state for the record that Wrestlemania XI is by far the worst Mania they every produced. Whereas WMIX gets a bad rap because of the terrible angle that ended the show, WMXI is totally lackluster from start to finish. There are no great matches or memorable angles. LT-Bam Bam and Diesel/Shawn as the double main events? I'll pass. It may have been the best celebrity match ever, but that's not so much a compliment but a commentary on celebrity matches. Diesel-Shawn was an okay matchup, but Shawn had spent the better part of 18 months doing squat and now we're supposed to buy him as a challenger to a 7' monster babyface champion? Nope. I can't buy that. Everything else on the show is a throwaway. Lex Luger goes from main event to curtain jerker in the span of a year. Ramon-Jarrett is a waste of time, Undertaker does nothing of note and Bret and Backlund have a lackluster follow-up to Survivor Series. Even the venue was terrible. The Hartford Civic Center. Hey Vince, if you're that worried about attendance just do the show at MSG again. That basically sums up my feelings on the show. King Kamala Classic: I got to disagree on it being the worst. There's no doubt that it's a very mediocre 'Mania but it's more forgettable than actively horrible. I wouldn't even put in my Bottom 5. Cheech Tremendous: When it comes to Mania, forgettable is worse than actively bad. alkeiper : I disagree, because I at least get enjoyment from decent work Cheech Tremendous: Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I'm not a big fan of going back and watching events for decent in-ring work. If I'm popping in an old tape it's because there is a moment or an angle that is special to me. Decent ring work is not enough to keep me coming back. King Kamala Classic: I was just about to say that...Forgettable Vs Actively Bad also basically sums up the what's worse argument beteween Kevin Sullivan's run with the book in WCW in '00 or Vince Russo's WCW runs that we've had on the board occasionally....but we'll get to Russo a little later. And we'll talk about that argument in The Starrcade roundtables series in November! WrestleMania XII Alkeiper: Wrestlemania XII was a very good show. Anaheim provided a suitable venue. Michaels/Hart has some problems but at worst it's a **** match and stacks up among the better broadways in wrestling history. Undertaker/Diesel was surprisingly good. I also liked Piper/Goldust. I got the feeling that they were trying to replicate the Patterson/Slaughter alley fight. While they did not match that, it was a good brawl and Piper's last good bout. The other matches were watchable and the one bad effort in Warrior/HHH clocked under two minutes. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I didn't think too highly of this one. I think Hart/Michaels is overrated to a considerable degre I've detailed in the past why I think it's nowhere near this MotY that it's been called and I'll post it in the thread when this gets posted. Undertaker/Diesel was shockingly good considering the limitations of the gimmick of one participant and the lack of talent of the other. I thought Austin/Vega was ungodly dull, the six-man opener wasn't much better, the Warrior/HHH squash was fine for what it was and Piper/Goldust was a match of two halves. The first part, the brawl, was really good, but the second half was something out of Russo era Raw. It was terrible. This WM was notable for Shawn's big win and the one hour match, but other than that, I didn't think there was much, if anything, of note or that you need to see again. Sensei John Kreese: XII was a good show. Two big matches that fans wanted to see on top. A lot of people criticize the Iron Man match for going an hour without a fall, but at the time, neither Hart nor Michaels had been pinned on TV in almost a year. At a time when both guys were super-protected, to take a fall in the middle of the match would have trivialized the moment. It wasn't a classic match, but I like it. Undertaker-Diesel was a good power match, and certainly Taker's best Mania match of the 90s. The Warrior squash was...well, a Warrior squash. It was exciting at the time. The debut of "Marc Morrow" was a nice surprise. I liked the first half of the Piper-Goldust fight. Piper smashing the car window was cool. The "in the ring" portion was the most intentionally gay wrestling match of all time. Dick grabbing, guys kissing, a man in lingerie...what's not to love? I was a devoted WWF fan at the time, and this show delivered what I wanted from them. King Kamala Classic: I've only seen this show twice (once when it was first released on VHS and once about eight years ago) so forgive my memory for being foggy...I remembere there was an odd period where I really disliked this show. I don't think it was ever one of my least favorites but I remember at one point claiming I liked XI better than it (yikes!) but thinking about it over the past week, this isn't a bad show at all. Not one of the great WrestleManias or even one of the very good ones but an admirable effort given the roster at the time. Michaels/Hart I always found sort of overrated and I really hated the fact that a 60 minute Iron Man match had no pinfalls but I'd still put it in the **** range. At the time, Diesel and 'Taker was one of the most shockingly good matches of all time. I don't think 'Taker had had a good match in the WWF up to that point and Diesel had never had a good match with anybody not named Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart. I remember Savio/Steve Austin being pretty good but my memory could be off there since I haven't seen that match since I last watched the show. Piper/Goldust is a bit goofy but the first half of the match is a hell of a lot of fun. The opener is harmless enough and I never really got why people complained too much about The Warrior squash. It only lasted a minute, I marked out when I first watched it when I was 8 or 9...I think it served its intention of reintroducing The Warrior as a force to reckon with. Unfortunately, his run didn't pan out like everyone thought it would and everybody looked like an idiot but hindsight is 20/20. So yeah, decent show...not great but decent Cheech Tremendous: Rating this show is difficult because it is truly a one-match show. If you like the main event, you like the show and if you don't, well there's not much else to save it. I personally don't care much for the Iron Man, both in terms of this match and the gimmick itself. I've never quite understood why they felt the compulsion to book that gimmick. Were they really that worried about selling Bret-Shawn as a main event match on its own? The entire pacing of those matches is counterintuitive to a babyface seeking his first world title win against a hated rival. I don't have much to say about the other matches that hasn't already been covered. Diesel/Taker is great given the personnel involved, but Diesel's impending departure was already being rumored at the time and it sort of killed any chance of a heated angle. Warrior's return is great but it didn't really go anywhere long-term. I've noticed that no one has really mentioned the pre-show garbage. Huckster-Nacho Man and the Bodydonnas-Godwinns were both pushed in the weeks leading up to the event, but ultimately were left off the show in favor of the Free For All gimmick they were pushing before the event. Both were quite embarrassing for the company. Finally, has anyone ever noticed the symmetry between the Mania IX and XII main events? In both instances we had a screwy title match after the main event had already ended and neither was followed up because one of the parties decided to go home after the show and have a long vacation. I think one gets a pass simply because its Shawn and not Hogan. Hunter’s Torn Quad The thing not remember about the main event is that it died live. King Kamala Classic: One quick thing I wanted to comment on is that Arrowhead Pond is easily the least remarkable venue to host two WrestleManias. Sensei John Kreese: WWF went there so many times in the late 90s King Kamala Classic: I think my initial problem with the show was that it was built so much around one match. The rest of the card kind of felt like an In Your House card besides Piper and Warrior's returns. Cheech Tremendous: The Arrowhead Pond is still better than Hartford. Sensei John Kreese: Well yeah at least an actual sports team played there King Kamala Classic: Hey man, The Hartford Whalers were still playing at The Civic Center at the time. I think we can all agree though that Hartford is the worst 'Mania venue overall Hunter’s Torn Quad: The Trump Plaza says hi King Kamala Classic: Eh..the crowds were dead but Trump Plaza but I’ve always liked the look of it. Doesn’t really fit a wrestling show but it looks distinguished. Hartford Civic Center is a blah looking venue with a dead crowd. I give it the edge for Worst WrestleMania venue ever. alkeiper: the Trump Plaza was the worst IMO, it looked like an oversized ballroom. At least Hartford was equipped to hold a wrestling show. Sensei John Kreese: I liked the steps of the trump plaza quite a different look but not great for a wrestling show Cheech Tremendous: I thought that there was something unique about Trump. Hartford was just an arena Does anyone know why they went for an Iron Man gimmick? It seems so unnecessary for this match. They could have gone 60 minutes without laying it out beforehand King Kamala Classic: yeah...I don't see why it had to be an Iron Man match...especially since there was only one damn pinfall. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I guess they wanted to make it memorable. Guarantee the match would go an hour King Kamala Classic: it would've still been memorable if it'd went to an hour draw without The Iron Man gimmick. alkeiper: it would've worked better at one fall apiece and Hart winning the first fall, Michaels winning due to the 60 minute stipulation, would let both wrestlers save face. Cheech Tremendous: Technically its a sound match, but good god is it boring King Kamala Classic: yeah, it's not a match that I like to sit down and watch on a regular basis. Cheech Tremendous: remember watching the show live and just hoping someone would get a fall. There was like a 30-minute stretch where nothing of note happens Sensei John Kreese: bret says in his book that shawn and patterson decided on the iron man stip without even consulting him alkeiper Hart/Michaels, match of the night? Hunter’s Torn Quad: Tied with Undertaker/Diesel.For me, anyway King Kamala Classic: yeah Hart/Michaels is the best match probably but Undertaker/Diesel is most entertaining Cheech Tremendous: Best match, but that's not really a compliment. It was a dull show, match wise WrestleMania XIII (Notably deleted from this segment...a discussion over whether Sid crapped his pants during the main event or doing a rehearsal match at a house show leading up to the event leading to a bunch of us making jokes about the 'Taker/Sid match being crap and a discussion of the career of Curtis Hughes!) Alkeiper: this is obviously a one match show. I think we can all agree that Hart/Austin is a classic. The rest of the show is dull and unmemorable for the most part Though the Chicago Street Fight is a decent brawl. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I would concur. Bret/Austin was a classic, the six-man streetfight was surprisingly good, and the rest was completely throwaway. Sensei John Kreese: I wasn't really watching wrestling at the time of XIII, as a newfound interest in music and girls had led me away from my wrestling fandom. I was aware that Sid was champion, but that was about it. That said, I remember watching the end of Superstars on the morning before the show, and as Pettengill or whoever it was went over the card I was thinking "Really? That's the card for Wrestlemania Having caught up with the event and all the Raws leading up to it over the years, I imagine that if I had been watching at the time, I wouldn't have been any more excited. Not everything on the show was bad but everything was weak except for Bret-Austin. I think all that needs to be said about that match has been said over the years, but suffice to say it was amazing and probably worth buying the show for. Taker winning the title was nice, but THREE Bret run-ins during the match was a little much. And Russo wasn't even booking then! Nothing else of consequence happened there, so what's left to say? King Kamala Classic: Austin-Bret is probably in my top ten if not top five favorite of all matches but even that's not enough to save this show from being in my Bottom 5 'Manias. Everything besides that and The Chicago Street Fight (which as everybody has noted is a half decent brawl) ranges from forgettable to outright terrible. Sid-Taker is one if not the worst Mania event of all time and the less said about Rocky Maivia Vs The Sultan is better. Again, this show just feels really dead, like a particularly weak In Your House card in a bigger venue for the most part. First three months or so of '97 was another low point in WWF history. Luckily things would get better soon after but man this is not a good show by any stretch of the imagination. Cheech Tremendous: In what is becoming the theme of the night, this was, once again, a one-match show. There is nothing that I can add to Austin/Hart at this point. It was a classic match, a classic angle and a classic feud. Truly the highlight of 1997. As for the rest: I enjoy the Street Fight in the same way I like the Savage/Crush match at Mania X. It was so unique for what they were doing at the time. Everything else is pure rubbish. The tag and IC title matches go nowhere and had no real build to speak of. Undertaker winning the belt is a nice moment, but it really comes off like they had nothing else to do with the belt. It's a really lackluster finish. I do have to say that I enjoyed the build to this show. The drama with the world belt from Survivor Series to Mania was really compelling television at the time, but I have no idea how it would hold up now. Alkeiper: Undertaker/Sid is probably the worst WM main event ever run Cheech Tremendous: I don't know why Vince thought that would sell. It doesn't even look interesting on paper, let alone in an actual ring Hunter’s Torn Quad: Vince was panicking and when he panics he goes to the big guys Cheech Tremendous: The IC title was really in a rut around this time. They just couldn't figure out what to with the belt from Ahmed's injury to Owen's run in the summer of 97 King Kamala Classic: yeah, along with having the worst WWF World title match at a 'Mania, this show has the Worst Intercontiental title match at a ‘Mania (if not, one of the worst IC title matches of all time). Odd considering that Rock and Fatu would have some pretty decent matches three years later...under very different gimmicks of course and Rocky was much less green. Cheech Tremenedous: The Sultan was a go-nowhere gimmick. I'm shocked that he even made it on the show, let alone a title match with a green as grass Rocky Alkeiper: and likely only thanks to being Samoan probably figuring the Rock could use a familiar opponent Hunter’s Torn Quad: The four-way tag opener was terrible King Kamala Classic yeah, that was a terrible way to open the show also I can't believe I forgot to mention Goldust-Hunter Hearst Helmsley in the Worst Series Ever thread I started some months bacl. It seems like all the matches they produced were ungodly boring and long Hunter’s Torn Quad: Those two worked for months and couldn't get above **1/2 Cheech Tremendous: Neither one could do much at the time, despite other periods of solid work WrestleMania XIV alkeiper: Wrestlemania XIV was well regarded. Almost every match on the card delivered. Austin/Michaels worked a great match despite Michaels' injury, Kane/Undertaker was good, Cactus/Funk/Outlaws was a fun brawl. Taka/Aguila was innovative for WWE at the time and the card was just really well paced Hunter’s Torn Quad I didn't like this WM too much. The tag battle royal was below average. Taka/Aguila was a spotfest that had nothing else to it. Owen/HHH was acceptable. The mixed tag was a couple of good Sable spots and nothing else. Rock/Shamrock was ok. The tag title match was a fun brawl. Kane/Undertaker was terrible. The main event, as a match, was fine but not really above average, however the real story is Austin becoming a star and Shawn working a miracle considering his back was blown out and he probably shouldn't have been wrestling at all. You can see it on his face for almost the entire match that he's in great pain but he keeps going as best he can and manages to not mess anything up. Overall, as a show, not good in terms of quality, but it was strictly designed to launch Steve Austin into the stratosphere as the next superstar in wrestling and it worked better than I think anyone expected. Sensei John Kreese: 14 was another good one. No great matches, although the main event was a miracle considering how messed up Shawn's back was (and Austin's neck for that matter). Stone Cold won clean, Tyson got to punch a guy out. Just what you'd want. Everything just fell into place on this show. Sable got revenge on Luna, Cactus and Funk got revenge on the Outlaws, LOD had a triumphant reunion, Rock continued his reign as undeserving champion, and DX screwed Owen again. The only surprise for me was Undertaker vs Kane; I was sure Kane was going to win, because I figured, as it was with the Mankind-Taker feud, Taker would lose at first to build up to a highly-anticipated rematch. Now, looking back, as they've tried to make "will the streak end?" an important drawing card for every year's Mania, they're lucky they didn't put him over, but at the time, it seemed like it could have/should have gone either way. Tyson was the best use of a celeb I've ever seen in wrestling (they almost always work better as heels), and they got him at exactly the right time. This was a similar situation for me as it was in '95, as the big celebrity angle buzz seemed to have cooled off since the Rumble, but in this case it did a huge buyrate, so I guess I was wrong. The Pete Rose thing was fun but pointless; I suppose it was good for SportsCenter fodder but since Tyson was on the show, they already had SportsCenter clips ready. Gennifer Flowers was just a cheap attempt to capitalize on the Lewinsky scandal, and I doubt it meant anything for publicity. But if not for her, we wouldn't have had "If you smell what the Rock is cookin'", so it all worked out. I wonder why Carrot Top backed out of the show. But then again, I also wonder why he was originally booked in the first place. It's not like Box Office Poison/9 1/2 Seconds/Chairman of the Bored didn't need the promotion. King Kamala Classic: 14, I see as the real coming out party of The Attitude era. No great matches but everything works. A really, really well paced Mania. Cactus and Chainsaw Charlie-The NAO and the main event are thehighlights. Having a hard time thinking of anything on the show that was outright terrible. I don’t think there really was anything though on the same hand, there were no classics workrate-wise. A rare show where pretty much every match seemed to serve its purpose. Not one of the greatest Manias but certainly one of the most important and easily the Best of this era. Cheech Tremendous: Mania XIV is a fun show, but one that I haven't bothered to go back to in quite some time. Shawn-Austin is what it is. The match itself is something of a let down given what those two are capable of, but with Shawn's injury it was the best we could have hoped for. The angle surrounding it is gold and Tyson's involvement was probably the best use of a celebrity ever. The remaining matches all range from above average to good, but none of them are overly memorable. Kane was such a strong character when they first introduced him. He was second from the top less than six months after debuting for the company! That's an amazing turnaround. The dumpster match is a fun brawl, even if Terry Funk's gimmick is totally ridiculous. Owen-HHH was okay, but let's be honest here: he should have been facing Shawn in a grudge match for the Survivor Series incident. A total victim of timing and politics. As for the opener: I really wanted to believe that LOD had one last run in them and Sunny looked great, but the magic really was gone by that point. Jobbing to NOD multiple times just killed them dead and they never recovered. More than anything, I remember this show setting up the next night's Raw, which is still to this day my favorite episode of wrestling television ever. Alkeiper: Michaels’ back injury is poetic justice in a way for all of the times he faked injuries to get out of jobs. Cheech Tremendous: I sort of touched on this earlier, but I wish that the timing would have been a little different so that we could have gotten a proper blowoff to Owen-Michaels King Kamala Classic: The main event really had to be Austin-Michaels though. I think Owen-Michaels would have been better served for Royal Rumble or No Way Out. Cheech Tremendous: It did, that's why I said the timing didn't work out. Hart needed a big win over Shawn but you can't do that while building to Mania and Austin's first big win. Also, let me go ahead and admit one of my darkest secrets: I thought Austin was going to crash and burn as WWF Champion. King Kamala Classic: wha? Really? Do explain Cheech Tremendous: I didn't see him as the type of babyface that could carry a promotion on his own and I didn't that there were any heel characters for him to play off of. Little did I know that Vince would fill that role perfectly. Sensei John Kreese: i was hoping for kurrgan to be built up as a challenger to austin's title King Kamala Classic: I can definitely see that line of thinking. To tell the truth, I was actually a bit befuddled that Corporate Dude Love was his first challenger for the first week or so of that feud. Cheech Tremendous: Even to this day, I think Austin gets a bit too much credit for the success of the Attitude era. DX, Vince, the Rock and Sable all played an integral part in this company becoming the late 90s juggernaut King Kamala Classic: I agree. He’s an integral reason for The Attitude Era’s success but it was really a case of a lot of guys pitching in, various ways, to make it big. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I don't Cheech Tremendous: And why is that? Austin had the benefit of being booked on top when the shows as a whole were outstanding. He definitely succeeded in that position, but I'm not convinced that they couldn't have done it without him. Look at 2000 for an example. Hunter’s Torn Quad I think the dynamic that turned things around was Austin and his playing off of the evil Mr McMahon character. I think that, as much as a major supporting role the others played, ultimately, it was down to Austin that things turned around Alkeiper: I agree with HTQ, 2000 was nice but it took someone to open the market in the first place Cheech Tremendous: can you have an Austin without a McMahon? Austin really only drew when he was booked in some way with McMahon on the other side. Hunter’s Torn Quad: Which means nothing because it was still Austin being part of the dynamic that turned things around Alkeiper: When was he booked without McMahon? Cheech Tremendous: He spent all of 1997 as the top babyface against the Hart Foundation and that didn't set the world on fire. He didn't do much after neck injury either King Kamala Classic: would evil McMahon have the same effect without Austin? Hunter’s Torn Quad You might have needed Austin with McMahon and vice versa for things to click as big as they did, but things weren't going to get that big with any other people in that dynamic Cheech Tremendous: I agree with that. It was a perfect storm Hunter’s Torn Quad: Austin deserves all the credit simply because it wouldn't have worked as well as it did any other way WrestleMania XV Alkeiper: Wrestlemania XV in my humble opinion is the biggest pile of crap ever to have the Wrestlemania label placed upon it. Multiple turns, run-ins, non sensical endings, hokey finishes, simulated death, and every other piece of crap that Vince Russo could put his idiotic hands on, Austin/Rock was the only decent match and that gets worse every time I watch it Hunter’s Torn Quad: This was Vince Russo at his nonsensical, idiotic, dumbshit, retarded, lacking in common sense worst. A total car crash with, as al said, nothing but run-ins, swerves, double swerves, terrible finishes, bad gimmicks, and complete retardation. The Hell in a Cell match gets forgotten for good reason; it sucked. Everything about it sucked from the storyline going in to the angle going out. It was pure, Ruossriffic bullshit. The main event was good, but not great, and saying it stole the show isn't anything to brag about. As a whole, taking into account match quality, good storylines, hot angles and everything else, this is hands down the worst WM ever. There isn't a single thing on this show you ever need to watch. Ever. You can go through your life never watching this show. In fact, I encourage it. Sensei John Kreese: 15 was a total one-match show, as they often were in the Austin era. The main event was good, but pales in comparison to the Austin-Rock match two years later. The HHH heel turn was surprising, as was the Big Show face turn, and that's about it as far as notable moments at this show. I hated the "switch the Outlaws in the title matches" dealy-a-bob they pulled, because both guys had legitimate issues with their originally-scheduled opponents, and in both cases, the multi-man matches made sense as opposed to being thrown together before Russo switched them. Test's classic "Guns don't kill people, I KILL PEOPLE" shirt makes an appearance, and that's a plus. Can you believe WWF really thought Bart Gunn could knock out Butterbean? This show felt like little more than an overlong Raw with a special main event tacked on, but it got a huge freakin' buyrate so who cares? Also notable was HBK totally botching his pre-main event promo, as he told Vince "you and your corporation are barred from ringside," then realized that Vince had to interfere so added, "Well, I guess you can come down" which just sounded ridiculous. Oh, Shawn. King Kamala Classic: Yeck...another bottom 5 show here, may in fact take the #1 spot. Just doesn't feel like a WrestleMania at all...more like a bad In Your House. I recall Backlash the next month being a much stronger show wrestling wise (though that's not saying much). The main event was good but we'd see lots better from Rock and Austin and X-Pac/Shane was a fun enough garbage match but we'd see a lot stronger garbage matches from Shane. Everything else just sort of sucked...especially the Hell In The Cell match (which was so bad they neglected to put on that Complete Hell DVD that came out a few months back) and I as well hated the switching of The Outlaws in the title matches. Was funny to see Bart Gunn get knocked out though. Though I think it's hyperbolic to say this is Russo at his worst, are we forgetting a show called New Blood Rising, gentlemen? Anyways, bad bad bad show. Yep, it very may well be the Worst WrestleMania ever. I switch back and forth between this and IX. Cheech Tremendous: Everyone hates XV, but I really remember enjoying the show at the time. Like most Russo era stuff, it was great while you were living it because of the great episodic television he wrote, but the stuff was so nonsensical that it didn't hold up a month later, let alone ten years. But like Russo or not, things were really clicking in early '98. Maybe I'm just being overly nostalgic because this was basically the height of the wrestling interest from my friends, but I have a soft spot for it. We probably had a dozen or so people watching this show and we all left the event happy. Austin/Rock was a rather lackluster match, definitely the weakest in their series, but those two were so over at the time that you can't help but enjoy the atmosphere. I do think that the buildup was poor, with way too many title changes leading up to the show. Should have just made it a three-way if they were that concerned about keeping Foley hot in early '99. The rest of the show: lazy and forgettable. I guess X-Pac-Shane is a fun little brawl. Billy Gunn should have gone over Shamrock at this show for the title, but I guess since that was too predictable he had to switch places with the Road Dogg. I hated that. Oh, and the tag title situation was just a mess. If I were to criticize one thing above all else, it was the fact that they couldn't find a decent team to program against Jarrett and Owen. What a waste of the belts and a spot on the card. But Butterbean destroying Bart Gunn is the funniest thing to happen at Mania and if you can't enjoy it, you have no heart. Big Show-Mankind was really a waste King Kamala Classic: I haven't read them in years but I vaguely recall Foley admitting that he was half assing his series with The Big Show in one of his books. Cheech Tremendous: Both were super hot at the time and left the show in way worse shape Final Thoughts? King Kamala Classic: any final thoughts before we finish? On XV? on the era? Hunter’s Torn Quad: Not the best stretch for quality shows King Kamala Classic: Yeah, for my money, the worst era of ‘Mania with XIII and XV being two of my least favorites and XI not being too far behind. Cheech Tremendous: Most of them were one-match shows. A really average bunch of shows overall. King Kamala Classic: None of these shows really had the sense of spectacle I expect in a 'Mania either. Not even XIV really. XI kind of attempted it with the shitty celebrity cameos but you can't have a spectacle in Hartford. Cheech Tremendous: Hartford! King Kamala Classic: They all just sort of looked like any other show. Cheech Tremendous: I still can't believe they ran Mania in Hartford Was Columbus, Ohio already booked? How about Tulsa, Oklahoma? King Kamala Classic: I believe Smuckers Stars on Ice was running at The Worcester Centrum that week Sensei John Kreese: someone needs to ask meltzer why hartford Cheech Tremendous: HTQ, get him on the horn! Hunter’s Torn Quad: Probably because it was their 'home' King Kamala Classic: I don't think the aura of WrestleMania would be recaptured until X-7....but that's next time Cheech Tremendous: Nice seque, Kamala King Kamala Classic: thanks

I could actually see a hard rock cover of "Electric Avenue" working. The lyrics kind of betray the original's fun '80s pop vibe. I'm sure this cover sucks though. Can't see a hard rock cover of "Careless Whisper" working at all. Ben Folds and Rufus Wainwright did a pretty good cover of it though when they went on tour together four years ago or so.

Yeah, boy I watched last night for the first time and it wasn't good. The Asshole Animals sketch was just awful. Weak premise, even weaker sketch. But as a whole, it wasn't an outright disaster. There's some potential though. I agree with pretty much everything KOAB said, The Roots are easily the best band in late night and he is a surprisingly decent interviewer. The audience isn't really familiar with Jimmy and Jimmy hasn't really developed a rhythm quite yet like all of the other hosts have over the years. He's got some potential but he's going to need some time to develop. I don't think he's going to get 2-3 years to build up a rhythm like Conan did though, he's got two formidable competitors in the second half of Kimmel and Craig Ferguson (who was beating Conan on occasion) plus cable plus the internet. I'm not sure how much time they're going to give him in this day and age. Depends on the ratings after the "new show" rub wears off and Conan and Leno move into their new time slots. Also did anybody else think that the crazy guy fencing Jimmy in Conan's old studio was going to be revealed as Conan himself?

Yeah...2nd grade, I was chasing after this girl I had a big crush on at the time and she kicked me in the dick. I guess love really does hurt sometimes. Yuck yuck yuck! It's also happened a few occasions during fights with my brothers but I don't think anybody's kicked me in the groin since I was 12 or so. Also to add to the getting hit in the groin with a football story, there's sadly been two occasions where I was in my backyard shooting hoops, absentmindedly dribbling the ball and lost in my thoughts when the ball somehow hit me in the nuts when it bounced up to comic effect (fortunately, I was alone on both occasions). I've mentioned this story before on the board and Czech asked me how the hell it happened and I really have no idea whatsoever.