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There were other comments I was going to respond to and co-sign, but this one stood out as my exact feelings. The Taker angle was horrible(in that it was lame and sucked) and I didn't understand the level of the backlash. Not to say I didn't understand the backlash itself, but the level of it was a bit silly. I thought the Hassan had potential too, but the guy sucked in the ring. His mic work was okay, but as someone stated he got long winded at times. Seriously, I totally forgot about Hassan until I saw this thread The Benoit thing is not wwe's fault. I mean who would have thought that incident would have turned out to be what it was. I agree the Vince death thing earlier kind of pissed me off too for the same reasons.

Elizabeth saving Macho at WM 7 comes to mind. Austin helping Mankind win the title too. One that hasn't been mentioned is Hogan coming down to the ring because of Elizabeth to stop the Hart Foundation from finishing off Macho after Honky Tonk Man hit him with the guitar(not the gimmicked one either like later years). The birth of the Mega-Powers!

Yeah, 1998 takes it. Austin being the "target of the wwf" and winning the Rumble then getting into an altercation with Tyson the next night is the turning point in getting the wwf back in the meda. Then you had HBK straight off the heat with the Montreal Screwjob and Vince just teasing the hints about not wanting Austin as the champion for PR reasons. It was fantasy/reality worked shoot era at its finest. The 1999 Rumble imo was clever booking. The Rumble stunk yeah, but what could have been the alternative to getting Austin back into the title match at Mania without a foregone conclusion. Remember Austin was the two time defending Rumble champion. It's kind of a stretch for him winning something like the Rumble 3 YEARS STRAIGHT. The loophole progressed the Austin vs. Mcmahon and Corporate Champ Rock angle imo. Vince nobody saw coming and it's not like he won it legit or anything. Last year was one of the worst imo and this year wasn't far behind either.

Yeah it was pretty stupid. The only explanation is that they could have built up Piper as just wanting a piece of Hogan and Bischoff not granting him a title match because he just walked into wcw at HH. I don't recall them NOT saying it wasn't a title match either. They knew we would all assume it being a title match because it was the main event of wcw's WrestleMania.

True in some ways what you are saying, but I think the Hulk Hogan of 1985-1987 was not really THAT cartoonish. The cartoon stuff started to creep in post Mania 3. The WWF Heavyweight Champion vs. The NWA World Heavyweight Champion in 1985 or 1986. If they went the Bobby Heenan Family/4 Horsemen route and the wwf actually acknowledged the competitor and the history of the two belts it could have worked. Remember back then the wrestling mags actually hyping Hogan vs. Flair as a dream match. Depending on where the event was held could have been the decider as well in terms of crowd reaction. Dusty had the "American Dream" persona and Hogan had the "Real American" persona. The cartoon stuff didn't really get out of hand until around 1988 and 1989.

That does sound kind of suspect. BTW, cabbageboy is right. Flair/Hogan should have happened between 1986-1989. It would have been a better draw and actually meant something. It happened just outside their prime. Speaking of kayfabe I think the wwf breaking it also hurt the champ vs. champ thing too.

You know maybe Flair said that for these reasons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oFCOzEhpsM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzDSHQ16yHA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jdIFivdxqc For mass consumption the masses may consider Hogan greater than Flair, so Flair counters by saying it's Austin. Hogan came on top with their most publicized encounters and Flair left his league to go to Hogan's league and vice versa happened with Hogan becoming top dog in his league, while that didn't happen when Flair jumped to Hogan's company. Flair said that for a reason at the HOF(plus Hogan wasn't there)

Right after the RR wwf magazine blew the angle as they had Flair/Savage and Hogan/Sid as articles for Mania

Austin/Cena is money no doubt. I just don't think it's going to happen at all.

"Mr. WrestleMania" vs. "The WrestleMania Streak" is a better marketing element for the 25th show than HHH/Taker imo. Throw in HBK retiring Ric Flair last year ending one all-time great and push the fact he may be the one to end the all-time great Mania record. The battle of Texas. They could even do HBK/Austin again too if they want playing off WM 14 and its significance with HBK wanting to Ric Flair Austin in Texas with ending his career(I'm not too sold on Austin returning for a match though).

I agree Hogan is the man, but let's try not to forget that without Austin, there is no 2000 WWF. Part of the reason that 2000 was so profitable was due to increased public visibility and avenues opened as a direct result of the popularity gains in 98-99. Taking nothing away from the Rock and others, but it's easy to reach those heights once the plane is already built; Austin made them profitable when a lot of people thought they were on their last leg. The very fact that the 2001 downturn was DIRECT BACKLASH of them changing Austin's character speaks volumes for the man's importance. And Roddy Piper, Randy Savage and even Ultimate Warrior weren't exactly chopped liver in 80's and early 90's. I agree. Austin/Mcmahon was the glue to the whole comeback by the wwf, but let's not forget the whole change in direction of how they did the shows had plenty to do with it as well. WCW laid some of the blueprint hate to say. Bischoff played the heel boss first(in that he was also the real boss). However, how much did Bret Hart and the Montreal screwjob give the wwf the boost it was looking for. Let's be honest the wwf was throwing everything at the wall hoping for something to stick and was failing miserably against the NWO juggernaut. The Vince screwjob was a blessing in disguise. The wwf also started to give more title changes in 1999 then they did for its entire years combined for title changes which sparked more fans to tune in. That couldn't go on for too long for obvious burn out problems. I also think Austin's rise actually started in 1996 when he was goading Bret Hart to return. That's where his "bottom line" lingo started and got a boost with the KOR promo. 2001 the wwf just made a bad call with turning Austin heel at the wrong time. WCW was gone. Rock leaves for the movies. Hogan was nowhere to be seen. Austin sides with Mcmahon and who was the audience suppose to get behind as before? Then the end of the monday night war also happened. It was a bad time for the move although I liked the idea(the execution wasn't that good either). This is just another reason Hogan should get the face of wrestling moniker is that it was his heel turn that triggered the masses to look at wrestling again.

I see your viewpoint about Hogan against Michaels and Rock being the "fresher" wrestler in wwe, but I disagree for the simple fact that it was the fresh match in itself that made people care. Rock faced everyone by the time Hogan faced him, so it also helped Rock going against someone like Hogan. The same with Hogan. He ran out of gas in wcw in his last days with his "Stone Cold" Hogan character. If you look at it from an even perspective Hogan had the crowd more regardless. It was a mainstream match that people wanted to see between the legendary Hogan and the ever popular Rock. It rejuvenates both wrestlers fans passions. I agree right now Hogan and Austin would favour Austin though. ESPECIALLY if they do worked shoot promos. I mean the material is too easy for Austin Then it's in his homestate, but then again fans are strange and we saw what happened at WM 18(not likely to happen though)

Funny, I never said anything about Austin being afraid of being out-popped by Hogan. I said Austin aint stupid like The Rock in having a match where Hogan may work the crowd to make it rather disputable that Austin is head and shoulders above Hogan for those who say he is the greatest star ever(Ric Flair I'm looking at you). Without having a match we can have the debate. It's similar to what fans would be saying about Rock being more popular than Hogan, but then that can't be truly argued as all we got to do is pop in Hogan and Rock from WM 18. There's empirical evidence that Hogan RETURNED in the "new generation" of the "attitude era" and hung with the top dogs who made Vince all that damn money. It is rather obvious that a Hogan/Austin match would not be all Austin in terms of fan support. Any one who says otherwise is just Hogan hating imo. That is what Austin avoided along with the politics Hogan would bring to the match. We saw what happened with HBK The Master Politician and his match/feud with Hogan. Austin remembered his wcw days all too well to fall for the trap in Vince's company.

I agree with this formula and I think it's the one that was used at WM 3 and WM 8, and WM 17. Austin should be back for the HOF. Do with him what they did with Flair this year. Being from Texas and so on it will be over easily. I like the Taker/HBK match idea better than HHH/Taker too. They can go in a lot of different stories with HBK/Taker making that option A or even Cena/HHH(which might be the reason why they have them on two different shows). They might be doing that with Cena/Batista too. Austin against someone like Cena would be option B C. is up in there right now imo D. HBK/Taker fit this as well E. Austin's return match(he's the only guy who I actually think will come back for the event

I haven't made a post in a long ass time on here. The face of the wwf/e is HULK HOGAN. Hulkamania=WrestleMania. Take that little equation in for a moment. I see all these numbers and so on, but people are failing to take in these things the wwf had happen in Hogan's era in the wwf. NO PPV SHOWS IN THE WWF WITHOUT HULK HOGAN!!! You think the wwf back in the 80's would have drawn as big without Hulk Hogan in the early years? There's a reason why Vince sought the guy from the NWA and prevented him from showing up at the Starrcade event for the NWA. Hogan was big before the Sheik win because of being seen in the Rocky movie. That was the catalyst for Vince seeing the mainstream potential in Hogan. People are forgetting wrestling WAS NOT on cable tv such as NBC. The wwf had a show that replaced the ever popular Saturday Night Live with SNME in the 80's. Hogan was apart of the two biggest crowds in the 80's. The Big Event with Paul Orndorff and WM 3. Hogan making it on Sports Illustrated for the popularity the business was gaining through him. The Hogan steroid scandle almost single-handily crushed the wwf in 1992(Flair drew horrible numbers for house shows as champion although it's not debatable at all that Flair is one of the greatest champions*some of that was due to Hogan and the steroid allegations). His popularity was so important that anything negative associated with him hurt the business. Then Vince tries to move on with a "new generation" with those new generation commercials promoting Hart, Diesel, and so on because Vince knew damn well Hogan in wcw was trouble for his company. Then they went with the Huckster and Nacho skits. Now if Hogan was not STILL the face of the company why would Vince try to denigrate Hulk Hogan? The fans saw Hogan in wcw as more as Hogan deflecting from wwf more than anything else. Just as the steroid scandal the negative of Hogan leaving had a bad impact on the wwf(FACE OF THE WWF). Hogan turns heel and wcw heats up and the wwf plays catch up. Piper who was apart of one of Hogan's biggest feuds of the 80's jumps ship to wcw and they re-enact WM 1 and WCW DESTROYS RAW in the ratings one week in December so much that RAW got a 1.9 rating if I recall correctly. Hogan's ANTI-establishment of the "new world order" taking over wcw was before Austin/Mcmahon really hit it's driving point around September 1997 at MSG and then the Montreal screwjob. Hogan RETURNS against the HIGHLY popular and one of the MOST popular wrestlers of all-time in The Rock and he gets CHEERED. Austin and Hogan never have a match and I wonder why? Austin aint stupid! HOGAN IS THE FACE!! Too much back story to show it. A lot of things helped wwf come back with those strong numbers in the 1997-2001 range and yes Austin was the front-liner, but let's not forget Hogan and the nwo almost put Vince out of business. As for the wwe today. It doesn't suck, but it's AVERAGE AS HELL. I think it has LOST A LOT OF STEAM since WM 23 imo.

Well thing might happen and that is less multiple reigns for no reason, but hotshotting. I'm sure they don't want just anybody close or breaking Flair's record. Russo 1999 no more although it racked up ratings because titles hardly changed hands prior to that year.

HBK vs. Hogan politics. Doesn't get any funnier than that. Didn't HBK remember Hogan's comments about Bret Hart in terms of doing a program at SummerSlam 93 with him? Hogan still has that attitude. Hogan worked with the Kliq in wcw, so you know he knew what he wanted done with HBK and wouldn't fall for anything HBK wanted. This is worse than Hogan/Austin politics. Hulk Hogan 1989 against HBK 1996 would have been something. Then again, in some ways HBK aint Savage who can carry guys like Warrior and Hogan to Mania matches. On a side note, anyone rememeber Main Event 1989 when Hogan was looking for Savage backstage after the heel turn and Hogan grabbed HBK by the throat and jammed him against the wall. HBK's face was hilarious.

I see Heyman's point, but having guys like Cena and the like saluting Flair gives fans who have just started watching in the last 3-5 years a better perspective how respected Flair is to the wrestling world. I agree the crying was a bit much. At times I couldn't tell if he was working or not. Malenko? LOL It wasn't overdone.

My question is the impact of the internet on wrestling. The good and the bad and did it resurrect wrestling in the late 90's? How has it impacted the long term business.

Yeah, I can't see any good coming out of Taker jobbing the undefeated streak now. Orton was the best guy imo and they didn't pull the trigger. The wwe has also gone out of the way to make him the only undefeated male wrestler in Mania history now if memory is correct. Edge had a streak going until last year and they were conscious of it. Cena/Austin would be good and yes Cena would get heel heat, but anyone facing Austin will get this heat in Texas. Rock or Austin in a return match will get Hogan WM 18 heat regardless.

Carlito came in with potential with that feud with Cena over the US title and has just been average or just plain garbage ever since for the most part. He comes off like a wannabe early 80's Don Muraco with the beach bum type character, but that's just me. He's inconsistent with his "accent".

Batista's coming off like the heel to me in this. If Flair accepts the retirement why is Batista angry at HBK? HHH isn't even pissed at HBK and we know how HHH/Flair are. Vince Mcmahon was the one who forced Flair's retirement. Batista is stale as hell and turning heel will help him. I don't think Flair should get involved. It will make Batista look more like a sour grapes character if Flair doesn't show up to talk to him. He'll come off like an opportunist.

You know I actually like the different arena concept. I guess it reminds me of the Olympics which I think is what they were trying to do. Of course, it stunk with that horrible roster, but would it work today? You have the world title, wwe title, and a main attraction match at all three venues. However, they couldn't pull it off way back then, so.... Anyone in Canada remember CBC playing this Mania on free tv in 1986?

I've got to agree with this. I was never a fan of the Flair/Taker match and I actually thought Flair couldn't keep up with Taker in this one. Arn's run-in was great though and that was probably the most perfect spinebuster ever. Also, the reasoning behind the WWE Executive Committe stripping Flair of power in the weeks leading up to this was stupid. They did it when he agreed to get into the ring, ignoring the fact that Vince was constantly getting into the ring. Not to mention the fact that Vince had just told everyone that he was going to "kill" his own company weeks earlier with the NWO. Anyone else remember this stupid storyline? I thought that HHH/Jericho should have ended the show leading up to this, since it was the world title bout. After watching it though, I have to say that Rock/Hulk should have ended it. It was a special match that the fans were totally into. Like Warrior/Hogan. That's what should have ended Wrestlemania. No one gave a shit about the title match. This was the wwf in its retarded hollywood phase that even Pat Patterson called them out on. Not to mention their attitude of we're better than wcw even if we own the company now mode. Hogan/Rock's challenge should have just ended with Rock rock bottoming Hogan. An audible should have been called with Hogan winning, but that would mean the nwo/wcw was better than the Attitude era Rock. To book Hogan's other Mania loss in TORONTO of all places was idiotic and showed the lack of historical perspective the creative team had. Hogan/Orndorff at the EX was the blueprint for Mania 3 with the large crowd. Hogan/Warrior was suppose to a passing of the torch and we know how that ended up. Hogan use to make front page news and tv news with his title defenses in Toronto. Then they went and book completely backwards in Hogan's RETURN wwf match. The NWO storyline was stupid and Austin was to blame for that. Rumour had it that Austin/Hall was suppose to be the match that created the two brands, but Austin vetoed the idea because was suppose to job. I understood for various reasons besides the storyline why he did this, but it messed up the angle. Flair was going to save the wwf from the nwo takeover led by Vince. Tradition against revolution or something so from what I remember. Instead we got raw and smackdown brands. As for Flair/Taker the year before with HHH losing and the streak marketing took place you could tell Flair wasn't gonna win. Again, the wcw/wwf thing again. It was built as HHH against Steph which was a big reason for the lack of heat in that match imo. Completely ignoring Jericho as the one who injured HHH in the first place for those hollywood stunts(the marriage angle) was dumb. Toronto is a smark city.

I have mixed emotions about this Mania. It's a good one, but not a great one imo. Just something about the show seems incomplete to me. Savage/Flair was great and so was Piper/Bret(I liked Hogan/Sid too), however the show seemed going through the motions to me. I've had this discussion before where I know the net loves this show. IMO, the way the wwf promoted Hogan as having his last match the show seemed like it was suppose to end an era. I really think the wwf screwed up this Mania in terms of long term ramifications. Remember the wwf was under steroid scandal at the time. I think this Mania could have been WAY better and being 2 hours was ridiculous. Remember Hogan vs. Flair was suppose to be the title match until the steroid problems came up where Hogan wanted to go into hiding. If the wwf had went with that main event the whole year is changed, but they went with the whole perhaps Hogan's last match promo with Sid. They could have gone with Savage/Hart at SummerSlam instead of Mania. The way they set up Mania messed up 2 years of wrestling until WM X and is a reason for poor business imo. Sid was brought in as the next Hogan if you can remember in the summer of 91. Flair came in as the real world champion. All this before SummerSlam. LOD won their first wwf tag title at SummerSlam 91. Now the wwf had somewhat of an invasion angle at their disposal and didn't pull the trigger. This would have made Hogan and Savage gain some of the super heat they had in 1988 and 1989 if they were put in a position to defend the wwf. Hogan and Savage's heat was waning in 1992. The dream match of Hogan/Flair could have matched Hogan/Andre if the wwf had gone the invasion type angle. I'm saying this because WM 9 sucked monkey balls because of the booking of Mania 8. If Vince let Hogan run out his Hulkamania in 1992 and went on to push Bret in 1993 he would have more heat imo. There would be nothing left for Hogan to do after dethroning his 80's counterpart. You could still have Bret going over Piper who Hogan never beat by pinfall at the event. It sets up the heir apparent, but of course they thought Warrior would pan out. To make this short, Hogan doesn't win convincingly against SID who came in as the next Hogan. SID suddenly disappears. UW returns and does a stupid feud with Papa Shango. Savage goes over Flair killing the feud imo. Flair winning would carry on the feud and I bet that is how they would book it today. Bret beats Piper and has no contenders in sight except Million Dollar Man. The tag situation was horrible as LOD should have been in the tag title match. They disappeared because of the steroid thing too. HBK/Santana was sort of a passing of the torch thing imo as Santana was a great IC worker. I hated that phony looking tombstone by UT on Jake. It was a passing of the torch, but the match seemed going through the motions to me. The wwf should have booked the show to either end the 80's era or have it something like wwf vs. nwa. Business would have picked up imo. There were some good to great matches in 1992, but the storylines and booking was bad. Does anyone agree that year seemed like an end to an era especially with all the steroid scandal around it? They should have booked the show in that fashion. How they opened up WM X should have been this show. If not, get heat back on the 80 guys by making an invasion angle. Flair, Luger, LOD, and Sid were perfect.