Organized Religion

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I believe I have said my peace and am just repeating myself now. I must move on before I spend all night here.

 

Thank you everyone for keeping this civil. That's something you don't see much of anymore on this board.

 

I'll talk to you guys later.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

There doesn't have to be evil for there to be good. Have any of us lived a blameless life? Can any of us say that there is no pleasure in a life without sin.

 

Besides which, a devout Christian will not be tempted by evil, therefore he will not experience true pleasure. What is the point in only allowing those who sin pleasure?

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Well then did he not also set us up to choose good? Some people choose good were they not given that opportunity by God?

 

It looks to me as if he set us up to choose either one.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

if there is no evil then why is something good? Something is only "good" in contrast to evil.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

But that decision was predetermined. Thats not free will.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Is it predetermined? Or does he just know we'll make a choice. He knows what our final choice will be, but we're still the ones who make it. Knowing it doesn't mean he controlled it.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

He knows because he can see in our hearts. That's how he knows. He can see what we really want, need, are thinking in our hearts.

 

Maybe it's a moment before we do it that he knows it. It never said at what point he knows. It just said he knows.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Uh, yes it does. He _still_ created everyone and every thing around the situation to mold our decision. He created the maze, he knew which way we would turn, and he put the idea in our head to turn that way.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

He's God, of course He controls it. Are you saying that He has no power ove us now?

 

And, if an orthodox Christian lives a blameless life, never experiencing evil and goes to Heaven, how can he appreciate it's splendour? Is there, then, no reason for him not to sin and later repent it?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

God is omniscient, is he not? He knows _everything_: past, present, and future.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

He put the idea in our head to turn that way? What makes you say that? He doesn't just throw ideas into our heads.

 

He has molded a world with choices. We are the ones who twist it around till it seems only one choice is the obvious choice. I think the choices we are given are pretty straight forward either way and we're the ones who make it difficult.

 

You make it sound like he gives us no other choice, but everyday I make a conscious choice whether or not to do good or bad and I know I could have easily chosen the other one and sometimes I do, but for the times I don't I know that I can be forgiven.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

He's God, of course He controls it. Are you saying that He has no power ove us now?

 

And, if an orthodox Christian lives a blameless life, never experiencing evil and goes to Heaven, how can he appreciate it's splendour? Is there, then, no reason for him not to sin and later repent it?

He has power over us, but he's not going to use that power to force us to chose one way or another.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I've really gotta leave. I know I said I would before, but this time I mean it.

 

Thanks again for the civil discussion.

 

Goodnight.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

LaParkaYourCar, do you agree as a Christian that it is more important to be a good person than a devout Christian. I find the two are sometimes very different things.

 

*edit*I posted this before he said he would leave, but the question stands for any religous pople out there.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I think in being a Christian we are called to be a good person. If we're not doing that then we have a problem.

 

Some people have skewed the idea of being a devout Christian into being something opposite of being a good person when Christian teachings were all about love.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

After 9/11, the Onion ran a little article about what was on TV. The 2230 slot for Public Access was listed as "Extremely Uninformed Debate."

Which pretty much sums up all seven pages of this thread. Good only exists in contrast to evil in the Bible? Nonsense. This is a philosophical doctrine, not a religious decree. Christianity has always stated that good is absolute and is defined by God and God alone. God is the source of good; what is good is what is pleasing to God (cf Euthyphro: "Were we not saying that the holy or pious was not the same with that which is loved of the gods? Have you forgotten?").

 

I'll forgive the agnostics and the atheists their errors because I'm sympathetic to their skepticism, but I can't give the religious people a free pass when they spout such silliness. If you insist on defending the indefensible you have an obligation to at least get your own dogma right.

 

Oh, and Satan didn't choose "the path of evil." Satan wasn't even a singular until fairly late in the book. Satans were servants of God who were created specifically in order to test and tempt man (Elaine Pagels' Origin of Satan, qv).

[Guest Choken One]

Why do i always miss the fun shit?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

God said "whatever you do, don't eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of G&E" thus placing the idea in Mans mind that there is something special about this tree... thus making man AWARE that the tree exists... KNOWING that man would be tempted to take a bite of the fruit... KNOWING that man would indeed take a bite of the fruit...

 

God GIVES man Free Will, GIVES man choices, GIVES man temptations, and then when you make the "wrong" choice, he GIVES you the punishment.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

Hmmm, I wasn't so mush being sceptical of Christianity rather, for want of a better phrase, playing devils advocate. I am an existentialist, so I will debate Christianity as a counterpart to my personal philosophy.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

I believe I saw this on a special about the Great Flood of Noah's time. After the flood had occured, God said he would no longer directly involve himself in the path man chooses for himself. So it's my believe that during the time of Adam and Eve God did directly determine the fate of others. After the flood. Man chooses it's destiny. God knows what the right and wrong path are, but man makes the decision which way to go.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Do we really need to cover the flood?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Oh please, oh please, oh please. <claps her hands and bounces up and down excitedly> I couldn't stop giggling for hours after your coup de grace in that thread.

[Guest SP-1]

1. It's not about living a perfect life. We know we can't, God knows we can't, which is why the Covenant of Grace (Christ) had to be put into effect. It's a moot point all around.

 

2. Adam and Eve were made aware of the possibilities of each of their actions. Nobody pulled their strings except the Devil, who lied to them. They are accountable for their well informed actions, just like you and I are in society and before God. Don't try and shirk personal responsibility and blame it on someone else, namely God. Even Christians are accountable to confess that they are sinners.

 

3. Even AoO will say that there were alot of pro-flood good points brought up in that thread. But I sure as hell don't feel like going through the Flood discussion again, as it would take this topic way off course. It's been discussed, the points are available to everyone if they go look for it, I'm not bringing that dead horse into this thread.

 

I have to go to work. I hope this thing isn't a million pages when I get back in.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Even AoO will say that there were alot of pro-flood good points brought up in that thread

 

I absolutely will not. Every single thing about the biblical interpretation of the flood is completely and utterly asinine and false.

 

But I don't want to discuss it either. Just check the catacombs of CE if you're that interested.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Here's the post. Read it, and go and be better Christians.

 

Of Mountains and Seas

 

Ok, considering that "the great flood" covered all of the land on the planet, a planet only a few thousand years old, we can assume that this water covered Mt. Everest, the world's tallest peak, which is 29,028 ft (8,848 m) high. That's just to cover the tippy-top of said peak. Five and a half miles of rain, planet-wide, in the time span of 960 hours. (40 x 24 hours)

 

That's 30.2 feet of water per hour.

 

Or 6 inches of rain per minute.

 

Care to guess the temperature at that altitude?

 

How about the concentration of oxygen in that part of the atmosphere?

 

I'll spare exact statistics at this point and say very very cold, and almost no oxygen.

 

Explorers need to carry tanks of air to even climb that peak for god's sake. Do you think they had that luxury in biblical times? of course not. Let alone the survival of all the animals that were subjected to those conditions. Did god create some magical bubble of air and warmth for Noah and co? If so, forget about that whole "Passive god" idea that was brought up earlier, THAT would require some pretty amazing divine intervention.

 

I'm not drowning

 

Now, let's forgo all logical thought and assume our bible pals are floating about just below a jet liner's cruising altitude on a raging sea. The miles and miles of H2O below them had to come from someplace, and it had to go somewhere. Now, why is it that I'm sitting here in the midwest and am not submerged in approximately 5.5 miles of freezing brine? Did it all just evaporate? Why isn't it in our atmosphere right now?

 

A floating zoo, barn, and garden

 

What was the fate of plant life? Did Noah bring all sorts of trees on the ark as well? Since you don't believe evolution exists either, how in the fuck can you possibly think all those fuzzy critters and all those leafy trees fit on a boat of these dimensions, According to Genesis 6:15:

 

135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.

 

A craft  that size isn't large enough to support the life of 2 OF EVERY ANIMAL ON EARTH, taking into account space for food, cleanliness factors, animals eating each other, freezing, and gasping for breath, for 40 days and 40 nights, not to mention animals on different continents not being able to even reach the ark in the first place. Besides, they land on Ararat, Noah turns the critters loose, how did they get home?

 

Sleep with the Fishes

 

Now, the seas are teeming with all forms of sea life. We know the oceans are salty, and rainfall is fresh water. This isn't anything new, next time it rains, go outside and taste some rainwater. Go ahead. Taste some. It's fresh! 5.5 miles of fresh water and the water in the ocean would mix into a brackish mess, effectively killing all sea animals, both fresh water and salt. Let's also consider the immense pressure the sudden addition of that much water would be subjected to all sea life. Well, taking a look at our oceans teeming with life, something is obviously fishy there. (Dig the pun.)

 

LAND, HO!

 

The floating menagerie crash landed on Mount Ararat, allegedly, and Ararat's two peaks, named Great Peak and Little Peak, are 16,916 feet, and 12,840 feet respectively. Conditions aren't much friendlier there. Certainly not nice enough to start a vineyard, at any rate.

 

Forget about even bringing the Grand Canyon into this, which is a whole new can of worms I'll be glad to make you eat if you really want. Hopefully this will be enough to give you heartburn.

 

Listen to reason.

 

-Agent of Oblivion.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

Well, Catholicism and the rest of Christianity are both full of bullshit and guilty of creating oppression, strife, war, etc, but I'll tell you what, at least the Catholics built some very cool - looking churches, not to mention loads of great art and so on. As far as I can tell, the average meeting place of choice for Protestants or evangelical groups appears to be in some kind of ugly town hall. Them Catholics had style.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Oh, and one more time:

 

"It very often happens that there is some question as to the earth or the sky, or the other elements of this world - respecting which one who is not a Christian has knowledge derived from most certain reasoning or observation, and it is very disgraceful and mischievous and of all things to be carefully avoided, that a Christian speaking of such matters as being according to the Christian Scriptures, should be heard by an unbeliever talking such nonsense that the unbeliever perceiving him to be as wide of the mark as east from west, can hardly restrain himself from laughing. And the real evil is not that a man is subjected to derision because of his error, but it is that to profane eyes, our authors (that is to say, the sacred authors) are regarded as having had such thoughts; and are also exposed to blame and scorn upon the score of ignorance, to the greatest possible misfortune of people whom we wish to save. For, in fine, these profane people happen upon a Christian busy in making mistakes on a subject which they know perfectly well; how, then, will they believe these holy books? How will they believe in the resurrection of the dead and in the hope of life eternal, and in the kingdom of heaven, when, according to an erroneous assumption, these books seem to them to have as their object those very things which they, the profane, by their direct experience or by calculation which admits of no doubt?"

- St Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram

 

 

 

Jesus, I have to quote this so often I'd put it in my signature if it would fit. If only the Christians on this board would be a little less willfully blind. But they're supposed to "rejoice in persecution," right right right. I suppose you end up rejoicing a lot more if you act as ignorant as you possibly can, and revel in your stupidity and lack of basic education.

[Guest AM The Kid]

AM, that technically makes you a witch. And you know what happens to witches.

No, because they are all Christian beliefs. I'm Prespyterian but I also think that some parts of Mormonism are quite true as well. It doesnt make me a witch.

[Guest AM The Kid]

Ahhhh, I missed too much of this thread. Why did I go to bed?!

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

I've studied Palaeontology for the last four years. Any Christians wish to explain why the palaeontological and geological record completely contradicts all creationist theories.

For example, if man was created by God in his image, what are the numerous fossils of "primitive man", such as Neanderthal man etc.

When did dinosaurs live? I'd have thought that at some point in the bible, assuming that it records the whole history of the earth, someone would have said "By the way, God created these great big fucking lizards today called dinosaurs. They suck!"

What about the various strata in sedimentary rocks or carbon dating?

Please explain this to me, as I would very much like a valid reason to believe all geology is bollocks