It's not always a damn carry

[Guest Ray]

I've missed maybe two Raws and three Smackdowns in the last three years. Of course I saw the Austin/Booker match. I don't remember it very well, but I remember that it was nothing worth remarking on, and couldn't have been higher than two and half a stars.

Yeah sure....we believe you.

 

You don't remember it, but you know it was only **1/2.

 

Do you know how the * rating system works?

 

The Austin/Booker match was good. Good = *** or better.

 

***** - Perfect

**** - Very Good

*** - Good

** - Below Average

* - Bad

0 - Worthless

 

And if Eddie Guerrero's work is as good now as it was five years ago, then I should be able to judge him simply on his work now without having to dig up old stuff to find out why he's so good.

You can.....but you choose not to.

 

My point with the star ratings is that Angle's had more good matches than Eddie despite having less talented opponents and missing a few months due to injury.

And you're wrong.

 

Oh, and missing ONE Eddie PPV match doesn't disqualify me either. Even if you count it, Eddie's still got less good matches than Angle.

Says YOU.

 

I'm not saying that Eddie's not a good worker. I really like his stuff. He's undeniably one of the top five workers in the United States right now. I just don't think that he quite measures up to the standard Angle has set.

Ugh.... it's hopeless....I don't know why I bother. .

Edited August 19, 2003 by Ray

[Guest Rob Edwards]

iggy, did you actually read th elist of matches your god SK gave ****+ to?

 

Hint....it was more than 3

[KTID 0]

Good to see all these arguments against what I said about RVD.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

HBK could carry anything back in the day, Nash, Sid, Bulldog.

 

Most of RVDs 'good' matches in ECW were just spotfests. No transistions, no psycology, just spot, rest, spot, rest, spot, rest. The series with Jerry Lynn is overrated, not too mention RVD was winded about 10 minutes into the matches leaving Lynn to 'carry' and do the work. If spotfests are your cup of tea, than you'll enjoy those, but their not good matches if your rating them on the star scale.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

The series with Lynn peaked at about ***, so the fact that they are considered "great" speaks volumes about how overrated RVD is. If you like sloppy spot-fests with no build, pacing or psych then these matches are for you.

 

Vs. Anton? The Van Terminator match? Craptacular.

 

Vs. Ballz? RVD was out worked by Mahoney as I recall. Not good.

 

I can't really remember the others but RVD/Sabu in 2000 could be all kinds of shat.

[iggymcfly 0]

iggy, did you actually read th elist of matches your god SK gave ****+ to?

 

Hint....it was more than 3

Scott Keith isn't "my god." A lot of the time he's full of shit. I just used him and Bret Hart as a couple of people who supported my opinion that the Angle/Lesnar match was good. I even said that I could see taking Brock/Angle off the list, as it was just barely **** and could easily be considered ***1/2 or ***3/4.

 

I certainly don't hold Scott Keith as the ultimate standard for how good a match is.

[godthedog 0]

Good to see all these arguments against what I said about RVD.

Vs Jerry Lynn, Living Dangerously '99

Vs Jerry Lynn, Hardcore Heaven '99

Vs Ballz Mahoney, Anarchy Rulz '99

Vs Sabu, Guilty As Charged '00

Vs Jerry Lynn, Hardcore Heaven '00

Vs Scotty Anton, Heat Wave '00

Vs Rhino, Anarchy Rulz '00

Vs Jerry Lynn, Guilty As Charged '01

Vs Jeff Hardy, InVasion

Vs Jeff Hardy, Summerslam '01

Vs Chris Jericho, Unforgiven '01

Vs Eddie Guerrero, Judgement Day '02

Vs Chris Benoit, Summerslam '02

 

 

That's 13 matches!

 

Not even including TV matches, such as the TV title win against Bam Bam Bigelow or the RAW match vs Eddie, or tag team matches, such as w/Sabu vs Hayabusa and Jinsei Shinzaki at Heat Wave '98 or w/Jerry Lynn vs Lance Storm and Justin Credible at Heat Wave '99 (I could also include Japanese matches that I have seen, such as vs Sabu or vs Dan Kroffat).

i haven't seen his ecw or japan stuff, so i'll limit the discussion to that, but:

 

look at the people he's had good matches with: jeff hardy, chris jericho, eddie guerrero, chris benoit. this does not make him a good worker. rob van dam is good at what he does: doing flippy-floppy offense to pop the crowd, and take crazy bumps on his head. he had good matches with jeff hardy as a TLC™ freak occurence, because they were both willing to kill themselves. look at the remaining people: jericho, eddie, benoit. these are people who know how to build a match from someone else's strengths. van dam was blatantly carried by all these people. he did his thing when he was needed to, and let the other guy actually work the match. pay attention to the actual work he does in those matches: it isn't good. particularly the one with benoit, who basically drags him kicking & screaming through the whole thing. this is partly because benoit didn't really play to his strengths, but mostly because rob just didn't know what the fuck he was doing. when a wrestler is lost and fucking things up in one of his "good" matches, that should be a sign that maybe the other guy is holding the match together.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

If RVD's matches were spotfests... what were HBK's?

[Just call me Dan 0]

I'd call HBK's spotty brawls, but not just spot fests. He held his own in there when he had to wrestle, and his were much equivalent to Rock/HHH in 2000 type matches. Problem is with RVD is that he does not do one wrestling type manuevr such as a suplex or slam. It's all aerial. He's about equal to a Zach Gowan match and he has two legs!

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

RVD doesn't just do all aerial moves, and besides, his movelist is/was WAY better than HBK's. Plus, most of HBK's "best matches" were gimmick matches and most of his "carry jobs" were him doing insane bumping. RVD at least did those gratuitous pinning spots and chain wrestling with Jerry Lynn in ECW. Not that I'm saying RVD is better than HBK...

[Just call me Dan 0]

Oh I agree, RVD can easily hold my attention, but his lack of ground moves is really becoming apparent, and I really can't see him meshing well with too many people, especially being a face and needing to be on the offensive most of the time.

[iggymcfly 0]

HBK is 100 times the worker that RVD is. Sure, HBK has aerial moves, but he mixes them into the flow of a match, and he's perfectly capable of working a great technical match. His pacing is perfect, and while he may not have a huge moveset, it's diverse enough to not be hampered when a body part is targeted.

 

RVD's somewhat of a novelty act. All of his matches are pretty much the same. That's why they really should have given RVD the title back in 1999 when he was fresh in the WWE, because once you get used to his moveset, he's just an average worker with average mic skills.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

100X's?

 

RVD is more athletic, he has greater stamina (seemingly endless), and is about equal on the bumping.

 

Hbks moveset is horrible. It's cruiserweight lite and had it been on anyone else they would have been laughed out of the building.

 

But I'll give you this, HBK sure does know how to sell a body part

 

RRR: Still laughing over these "great technical match" 'es that Shawn has had.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

It's a retarded argument, 95% of the IWC will tell you that HBK is 10x whatever RVD is.

 

RVD has more stamina? He was blown up in all those matches with Lynn. RVD more athletic? Questionable. Bumps better? I don't think so. And last but not least, RVD has never carried anybody to a good match like HBK did on a daily basis.

[Guest Ray]

And last but not least, RVD has never carried anybody to a good match like HBK did on a daily basis.

Daily basis?!

 

Hell, that's worse than the "Angle has great matches with everyone" comment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shawn Michaels = most overrated wrestler ever.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

RVD wasn't blown up in any match with Jerry Lynn that I have seen (and I've seen a good amount of them). RVD being more athletic is questionable?? Okey dokie, are we talking about the same RVD here? I didn't say "bumps better", I said they are equal. RVD has much better flexibility than HBK and he takes german suplexes and ddt's and general headbumps better than Michaels. Michaels takes the backbumps better than RVD. They both have their strong-points.

 

I never said anything about RVD being a better carrier than HBK. Though I don't hold HBK's carry-jobs in high regard anyways.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Ok, I'm sorry, we'll say monthly basis.

 

Ravishing, you need to go watch the RVD/Lynn series again. All RVD does is stall, spot, rest, stall, spot, rest, stall. Lynn walks him through all the pin reversal sequences.

 

RVD= Most overrated wrestler ever.

 

HBK= One of the best American workers of the 90's.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

No and No.

 

RVD is overrated, but Michaels is more overrated.

 

I don't particularly like either of them.

[Guest Ray]

Ok, I'm sorry, we'll say monthly basis.

That's still an exaggeration.

 

HBK= One of the best American workers of the 90's.

And he's inferior to Bret, Austin, Owen, Benoit, Guerrero....

 

Shawn is soooo overrated.

[Guest Coffey]

Do you know how the * rating system works?

Good = *** or better.

I disagree with this.

 

It's a retarded argument, 95% of the IWC will tell you that HBK is 10x whatever RVD is.

 

I disagree with this. Most people will respond with "HBK is past his prime."

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

How does Michaels get a pass on his terrible no selling every time?

 

I've always wondered this.

[iggymcfly 0]

Just because I know you guys will love it so much, here's my list of the ten best workers in the WWE today.

 

1. Kurt Angle

2. Shawn Michaels

3. Chris Benoit

4. Eddie Guerrero

5. Edge

6. Rey Mysterio

7. Chris Jericho

8. Triple H

9. Brock Lesnar

10. Shelton Benjamin

[Guest Ray]

Michaels over Benoit, Jericho, and Guerrero?

 

Please...

 

Do you know how the * rating system works?

Good = *** or better.

 

 

I disagree with this.

Then what does *** mean? Bad? Poor?

 

It's generally considered that a match becomes good at the *** mark....Unless you give -* ratings out.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I don't think calling Angle overrated is very accurate. Angle is indeed over praised in the sense of how some folks go on and on about how he is or can be the next Flair (which remains to be seen). I see the difference being a slightly different definition of the two wordings. But lets face it. Angle is really friggin good in the ring. Rarely does he have a match where i feel like its just him going through a laundry list of his signature spots. Having good matches with guys like say KANE, really adds to his rep. PLus, the guys has good to great matches all the time!!!

 

In closing: When was the last time you saw Angle totally fail in the ring?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

1. Kurt Angle

2. Shawn Michaels

3. Chris Benoit

4. Eddie Guerrero

5. Edge

6. Rey Mysterio

7. Chris Jericho

8. Triple H

9. Brock Lesnar

10. Shelton Benjamin

 

Michaels in his prime wasn't better than Eddie or Benoit, and he sure as hell isn't now. Michaels is much better than RVD, though. Both of them have selling issues but at least Shawn knows how to pace a match, work with the crowd (and not just standing and pointing to himself) and could carry some slugs to good matches. Plus, Shawn's best work is actually very good. I struggle to find a RVD match that I would describe as that.

 

Of course, Shawn is the most overrated wrestler of all-time, if you look at it from a pure in-ring standpoint.

[KTID 0]

If RVD's matches were spotfests... what were HBK's?

 

 

Woooooooo.....You go girlfriend!!!!

 

 

erm, i mean good work, carry on.

[humongous2002 0]

Ok, I'm sorry, we'll say monthly basis. 

 

Ravishing, you need to go watch the RVD/Lynn series again.  All RVD does is stall, spot, rest, stall, spot, rest, stall. Lynn walks him through all the pin reversal sequences.

 

RVD= Most overrated wrestler ever.

 

HBK= One of the best American workers of the 90's.

I've seen all his matches against Lynn and he wasn't overblown, you might not like RVD but it doesn't give you an excuse to come into this forum and make up lies. If you want to prove that RVD is overrated you got to do better than that. Now lets go back to what makes a good match, and the answer to that is personal preference. There are fans that love a match just because their favorite wrestler is in it, hence the Undertaker getting pops even though he sucks more than Jenna Jameson. There are fans that love the lucha libre style or the puroresu style and they will tell you that that's great wrestling, there are others that love the old school style and they feel that still is the best type of wrestling ever. RVD's matches back in ECW and in WWF 2001 were very entertaining, back then he had a lot of moves in his repertoire, including slams and suplexes believe it or not, but in the WWE the only ones that have freedom to use their full moveset are the people they want to push to the moon or Kliq members. It's all about personal opinion, either you like a match or you hate it without having a so-called expert tell you that it was an awesome match because his taste might be different from yours. Thank God for the freedom of choice.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Whoa Humongo, come into the forum and make up lies? I've been here for a while, and I don't lie.

 

Your right, wrestling is all about personal preference, but their also is something called the GENERAL CONSENSUS. And that always wins in the house. In this case, I went back and looked at Scott Keiths rants and even HE agreed with me on the RVD/Lynn matches even pointing out exactly when RVD got blown up.

 

Where's my boy Optimus Schwab when you need him. He would of came here in crushed everything.

 

As far as HBK goes, he might be a little overrated in general, but damn sure not on this board. Everybody would rather piss on him cause of backstage bullshit.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

HBK's matches weren't spotfests because he actually worked in a particular pace, and made transistions. He didn't do a spot and than stall, and do another. He would mix it up and spread the high spots through out the match. HBK could work a technical match as well as a spotfest. Even his spotfests had psycology (Hell in a Cell, Streetfight). As far as his selling goes, he did the same kind of selling as most the faces of the 90's. Get beat up most of the match, and make the comeback at the end. If you do want to see some good selling though, watch the HBK/Bret Hart Survivor Series 97 match or the HBK/Austin match at Wrestlemania 14. Bret Hart did the same thing, always getting beat up and then usually coming back with his 5 moves of doom. HBK didn't have a 'limited' movset back in the day, go back and watch his matches, he could do everything other main events could do, and also throw in top rope moonsulats,elbow drops, clothsines, back elbows, splashes.

 

RVD in ECW didn't sell a lick, had no psycology in his matches, blew half of the spots he tried, and stalled like a bitch. In WWE, his moveset has been reduced, and now he's just repetitive. HBK, now, can put on a better match than RVD.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Funny, I believe you're the only one to have brought up his "backstage bullshit" - I know I haven't.

 

HBK's moveset was cruiserweight-lite and laughable for a heavyweight. When a moonsault is the "big highflying move" you do (Road Dogg can do a moonsault for christsakes) and a superkick is the strongest "power move" you do, you're limited.

 

What are these "transitions" and "technical matches" you speak of?

 

RRR: Loves the "Gum Chewing" sell from WM 14.