I'm boycotting ROH

[Guest DonWestMark03]

Okay- I think we've exhausted every avenue of discussion on this subject.

 

Point's established:

1.Tim fucked with Jay's life.

2.Jay admitted some parts of it are his fault, but Tim crossed a line

3. There is debate over whether he should have been banned, because this isn't covered in rules and regs.

4. Tim's an asshole, and he got banned. He ain't comin' back. Jingus is so pissed at Tim, apparently, he'll MAKE SURE of that.

 

Fin. Maybe somebody could go back to 1inch's question now. Either that or close the topic.

[bob_barron 0]

I'll drop it after this-

 

1)No he didn't. ROB FEINSTEIN did.

2)Okay fair enough

3)I thought we had the rules and regs so people would know what they could and couldn't do. What's the point of rules and regs if people get banned for something not mentioned in them.

 

4)Yes he is, Yes he did. And Jingus is prone to overreacting and taking everything way too seriously.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Get Puro tapes - it's what ROH tries to be...

[Guest Black Tiger]

I'll add my two cents and drop it as well.

 

1. HOW did Tim fuck with your life. threaten your family? mess with your school work? steal your credit card info? No, he supposedly (you have no actual proof he did) told RF ROH tapes were being bootleged and gave him the sites it was being bootleged on. I don't like RF and think his anal retentive reactions to this thing make him a big hypocrite, but its his property so more power to him. If you consider tape trading to be your life then I pitty you. Everyone who reads my stuff on 411 knows how fast I crank them out, because it's a hobby I enjoy. But if you consider YOUR LIFE to revolve around buying bootlegged RoH tapes and giving the site additional traffic, well that's very sad.

 

2. Fair enough, no argument there

 

3. The rules and regs aren't around just for decoration I'm sure. Dames put a lot of work into them. Why have them if your going to ban for reasons not included? When Dames banned Jubuki he had an actual reason for it.

 

4. I've got no problem with Jingus and I hope he doesn't have one with me. Does anyone else remember the famous "Message to Jubuki" thread? Jingus does tend to overreact.

[El Psycho Diablo 0]

Either that, or ROH can be downloaded a few places. VCD format is fairly common.

 

Isn't the whole "RF going ballistic on bootleggers" thing hypocritical anyway? Considering half the stuff on that site somebody else has liscensed?

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

I have Puro DVD's...but there in Japanese. Although Bob Sapp is kewl

[PsychoDriver 0]

I'd also recommend the best of DVDs for Nick Mondo, Ruckus and JC Bailey. And the wrestlers actually get money off them (how bout that?)

 

at http://www.brutalbutchershoppe.com

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

I'll add my two cents and drop it as well.

 

1. HOW did Tim fuck with your life. threaten your family? mess with your school work? steal your credit card info? No, he supposedly (you have no actual proof he did) told RF ROH tapes were being bootleged and gave him the sites it was being bootleged on. I don't like RF and think his anal retentive reactions to this thing make him a big hypocrite, but its his property so more power to him. If you consider tape trading to be your life then I pitt you. Everyone who reads my stuff on 411 knows how fast I crank them out, because it's a hobby I enjoy. But if you consider YOUR LIFE to revolve around buying bootlegged RoH tapes and giving the site additional traffic, well that's very sad.

BT,

 

I DO have proof it was Tim. Check NHB.

 

I never said "tape trading is my life," far from it- hence the "Tests, girlfriend, college" statement in my earlier post. To clarify- getting one of RF's patented legal threat notes, thanks to Tim- certainly is worth paying attention to in real life, and is highly unpleasant, in real life. That's what I meant. It was a headache I REALLY didn't need.

 

As I said, I mentioned offhand about a friend omine (all of one sentence), Tim threw a giant fit and ratted me out.

 

Hope that clears everything up. Remember folks: WRESTLING IS SUPPOSED TO BE A FUN HOBBY, FOR EVERYONE'S ENJOYMENT. Anything beyond that is pretty sad.

[Nevermortal 0]

I have a question-

 

Granted the official Mondo DVDs, the IWS dealer, and buying from Smart Mark help their respective company...

 

Doesn't buying the ROH tapes support & help RF pay the ROH talent that must cost a helluva lot to bring in once (or sometimes more than once) a month?

[Guest TonyJaymzV1]

Highspots.com has a bunch of UPW dvds on sale now

[bob_barron 0]

I have a question-

 

Granted the official Mondo DVDs, the IWS dealer, and buying from Smart Mark help their respective company...

 

Doesn't buying the ROH tapes support & help RF pay the ROH talent that must cost a helluva lot to bring in once (or sometimes more than once) a month?

Yes.

 

But many people argue that Rob is a very wealthy man and because of the strong gates- The bootleggers don't really cripple him

[PsychoDriver 0]

Highspots.com has a bunch of UPW dvds on sale now

Hmm, I dislike UPW but a few of those look pretty good namely UPW 'Shockwave' and UPW 'Future Shock Vol. 1' - UPW vs. The World

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

What's funny is that I bet Tim has no problem with guys like Jeff Lynch selling copyrighted WWE material.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Well there is a great amount of Puro out there. All Japan, New Japan, UWF-i, RINGS, Mich Pro, Toryumon, etc. etc. and different eras and decades - a lot of which I would recommend getting before "dropping down" to the majority of the indies out there today. I don't want to be called a "puro-snob", but it's quite simple - Japanese Wrestling (for the most part) tries to be like a real sport. Indy wrestling (FTMP) tries to be like Japanese Wrestling and completely misses out on that "sporting" aspect.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I don't want to be called a "puro-snob", but it's quite simple - Japanese Wrestling (for the most part) tries to be like a real sport. Indy wrestling (FTMP) tries to be like Japanese Wrestling and completely misses out on that "sporting" aspect.

Care to elaborate on this? I'm interested in what you have to say here. Thanks.

[Guest OSIcon]

Its funny that people think Tim really did that and take one line of obvious sarcasm as fact.

 

Messing with your life...that's a good one. By the same token, you would be messing with everyone at RF Video's "lives" by taking money from them when you sell bootlegs. In both cases, using the phrase "messing with my life" is way overdoing it, but you get the idea.

 

Of course, it all goes back to the fact that Tim didn't do it, but why would we want to consider that when we have an annonymous sarcastic confession?

 

Calm down Jay. Nobody is out to get you. Nobody cares about you that much. Selling the tapes is illegal anyway. Whinning over getting caught for doing something illegal is...well....really stupid.

 

And again, you are not even blaming the right person.

 

This whole thing is so dumb it makes me dizzy....

[Guest Black Tiger]

I used to consider RoH to be "North American Puroresu". Meaning that the company was based around ring work and not stupid angles and gimmicks. The guys who were pushed got pushed based on their skills, not their looks.

 

But eventually RoH began taking potshots at WWE workers which only makes them look bush league and began to do the same things they were knocking WWE for doing.

[Guest bigdunn20]

All promoters are crooks. And the ones that aren't are simply marks that wish they were promoters.

 

Live with it.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Indy Wrestling (ROH in particular) is like "Monkey-see, Monkey-do". Those guys (and yes this is a generalization) see the Japan stuff and copy it - they do the stiffness, they do the headdrops, they do the submissions, they do the sequences... but it all feels so forced. It's them pretending to be Misawa or Kawada or Vader or Lyger or Ohtani whereas the Puro guys (yes, another generalization) pretend to be real. So we have one group pretending to be real, and one group pretending to be fake - can you see the problem this creates? I dl'd the American Dragon vs. Paul London 2/3 falls match and I had to turn it off immediately after one of the announcers said "THIS is how you do a collar-and-elbow tie up!". Crap like "American Strong Style", or those scramble matches (I know, they're meant to be spot-fests, but that doesn't mean they have to be stupid), it's all monkey-see, monkey-do and there's no rhyme or reason to it all other than "pretending to be (insert puro-star here)". That's ROH to me. If I wanted to see Japan, I'd buy Puro.

 

They take the moves and the "style" but forget the content - they forget that it's supposed to be "real", how it's supposed to be "sport" (sure, the announcers love to brag about how it's not Sports Entertainment -a line that should have retired with Joey Styles- but in reality the majority of these matches are spotfests like the WWE; just less punches and flashier moves than their more-successful counter-part) and that is part of the appeal (at least for me) of Japanese Pro Wrestling. I made the mistake of watching a Vader in UWF-i tape and All Star Extravaganza in the same time period - Vader's Powerbomb was made-out to be the deadliest weapon on the planet, his punches were unstoppable, his chokeslam and powerslam were finishers, his german suplex = death... and that's about all of the moves he did in these matches... and the crowd eats it up because it's made to be real. I eat it up because they established right-off-the-bat that this is a universe where you can get KO'd by a punch, or a kick. Maybe it's the MMA fan in me, but I love that sort of style where every move has a meaning. Then there is ASE where a powerbomb is a transition move, a powerslam is non-existant because it's too weak, and a chokeslam has to be off the top rope or apron to have any effect; it's just not smart. It's all gratuitous spots whose only effect is to show that the Wrestlers can do it just as good as the Japanese guys which means it the same... but it's not. It's copying. It's pretending. When the match gets heated and somone does a big time move, I don't get that feeling that he "needed" to do it - and that's ultimately the main point. The need. In Japan there's the need, in American Indy there isn't. (Yes, Generalization - the case could be made against many Japanese wrestlers for overkill, and you wouldn't be wrong.)

[Jingus 0]

::applauds::

 

Rick, you just summed up the problem with many American indy workers and federations better than anyone I've ever seen.

[Guest OSIcon]

You are REALLY over-generalizing there. There are plenty of spot filled matches in the Indies that aren't very good but a lot of people cream over. There ar, as you said, a share of matches that come off as nothing more then "imititating wrestling" (or imitating stuff they see on tapes).

 

Yet, there are also a good bunch of matches out there that re legit good matches and have all the qualities that you said Indy wrestling is lacking. You seem to be a lot more concetrated on the junior-style/high flying Indy matches that I do agree, are for the most part largely overrated. There are plenty of matches out there that DO have substance to them. Quite a few in ROH and some in IWA-MS.

 

It also seems unfair to say they are "copying Japan" and holding that against them. There is nothing wrong with incorporating things that work elsewhere into Indy matches as long as (like you said) its done logically. There are many cases where that stuff is done logically.

 

By and large, I would take the best indy matches of the past year over the best of what Japan has to offer.

 

The part about big moves having less of an impact doesn't really fit. Using a 1996 UWF-I match has an example of wrestling where moves mean more doesn't work for your argument. That was one of the main things UWF was about: making wrestling more realistic. I could just as easily point to matches from Japan where there is goofy no-selling and/or big moves not used properly. You are using UWF to categorize all of Japan which which isn't fair or accurate.

 

I remember reading posts from you about how in an American Dragon match, there was a submisison that would have been the end of the match in an MMA style match and holding it against the match as a result. Is Pro Wrestling the same as MMA? Of course not. So why hold them to the same standards. Pro Wrestling has never been about recreating real fighting 100 percent If it was, we would see no rope running (which doesn't make a lot of logic). I think that may account for the way you feel about the indies. If that's the case, maybe you should just stick to MMA the whole time, because if you are looking for all wrestling matches to imitate real fights, you are going to be disappointed like you seem to be with the indies.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Last thing then I'll leave this alone, since what's done is done.

 

I have a life- I'm a college student - I have bills, grades, and an (ex?) girlfriend all to figure out.

Great, good for you.

 

What I do on TSM is pure leisure, and what I did (try to misguidedly help a friend out- which millions of people do), thanks to Tim, was screwing up my LIFE. This went beyond normal net flaming. It was messing with again, my LIFE

 

When you break the law, you take the risk of being caught. You should have been prepared to face the consequences of your actions before you took them. If you can't deal with the consequences, don't take the risk.

 

Second of all, is there an all-encompassing rule on TSM that says "You may not 'screw with another posters LIFE,'" because I don't remember reading it. If he hasn't broken any rule, you have no grounds to ban him on, regardless of how angry you are.

 

If moderators don't respect the rules, why should anyone else? Why should anyone respect the people who run this website when they ban people for offenses that aren't covered in the rules and regulations?

 

You have, in effect, flushed any credibility this website had down the toilet because someone turned you in for committing a felony. Congradulations.

 

And Bob, as far as "Tim not making RF threaten me"-well, honestly, what did he THINK was going to happen?

 

Of course he knew what would happen. Did you ever consider that maybe he wanted you to get caught for for stealing from a promotion he supports?

 

Nobody should be harassed because of their hobby on the Internet (unless it's snuff donkey rape porn or whatever.) I did something that's no different from what Kazaa users are doing. And I got "RIAAed" for it thanks to him.

 

Regardless of what you believe about people's rights in regards to the internet, there are laws against what you did and now you're paying the price for breaking them. What Tim did was legal under federal law and under the rules and regulations of this forum. Your getting him banned is a joke.

 

And it is comparable to what KazaA users are doing. Some of them are getting punished for it too. That's what makes it illegal.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

Actually, Ricky, technically I DIDN'T commit a felony.

 

RF doesn't have an international copyright, as I understand it. Therefore, my friend, who lives outside the US, is breaking no law.

 

Also, Justin Baisden plugs Mark Out Video for those tapes, I don't see you chewing him out.

 

No "credibility" has been lost- you're overreacting.

[Jingus 0]

OSIcon, I think Rick was referring to the many times that he (and I) have seen moves, sequences, gimmicks, or whatever that some indy worker has blatantly stolen from Japanese wrestling. (Take for example Low-Ki's various thefts from Kawada, Mutoh, and others.) I've seen so many crap indy matches that so desperately wanted to be Benoit vs. Sasuke that it makes me want to puke, and I think that general trend is what he was talking about.

 

And Ricky, Jay didn't break any laws. The guy he got his tapes from lives in Canada. Since RF doesn't have an international copywright on any of his footage, a Canadian copying and selling ROH tapes is completely legal.

[Guest Doyo]

getting one of RF's patented legal threat notes, thanks to Tim- certainly is worth paying attention to in real life, and is highly unpleasant, in real life. That's what I meant. It was a headache I REALLY didn't need.

 

Then why did you write a column on a popular website encouraging people to only buy bootleg

ROH? Did you really think it was impossible for word to get back to someone at rfvideo?

In your column you even said something like "I know you are reading this Gabe."

 

As for the original topic on here - if you look hard enough, you can find reason to boycott

any company. Promoters have been saying and doing wacky things and screwing over wrestlers

for years. It is nothing new.

[MrRant 0]

NM

[Guest Black Tiger]

Also, Justin Baisden plugs Mark Out Video for those tapes,

Justin DID plug Mark Out Video for a long time, until RF Video got word of it and complained to Widro and Ashish who run 411, they told Baisden to stop and he stopped.

 

Baisden also paid the price later on when RF decided to comp 411 reviewers (like myself) for RoH reviews with free tapes. Justin was left out in the cold while myself and Bob Barron got to reep the benefits.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

You can probably place the blame for all of the insane spots in Independent wrestling on WWE, WCW, ECW, etc. because when a mark watching WWE sees Chris Benoit deliver ten german suplexes in and row to Steve Austin and not get a pin. Then, if he watches an Indy federation and sees someone pinned after one german suplex it would make that worker look very weak.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

getting one of RF's patented legal threat notes, thanks to Tim- certainly is worth paying attention to in real life, and is highly unpleasant, in real life. That's what I meant. It was a headache I REALLY didn't need.

 

Then why did you write a column on a popular website encouraging people to only buy bootleg

ROH? Did you really think it was impossible for word to get back to someone at rfvideo?

In your column you even said something like "I know you are reading this Gabe."

 

Answer to this question's simple Doyo- tapes got pulled from my friends *before* the column went up.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

There is a reason why I used the term "generalization" more than once in my post - what I said is not indicative of all indies or all of Japan. I used UWF-i and ASE as examples because I watched them both within a 24 hour time period - yes, there have been plenty of All Japan matches where there was massive overkill in terms of suicidal moves, I have acknowledged this point as well. Again, it's generalizations. I have not seen every indy (or anywhere near it) or every Japanese Pro wrestling match - I am not an expert in either field. But from what I have seen, specifically from ROH, I feel that the majority of it is Monkey-see, Monkey-do.

 

Not all Puro is great, not all Indy is bad... however, when push comes to shove, I'd recommend Puro over Indy any day of the week. Maybe not current Puro, but I don't believe that's the case right now as 1inch said he had some DVD's and that doesn't sound too extensive (correct me if I am wrong). I'd like to hear some of the matches (specifically from ROH) that you consider to be 'of substance', and if I have em, I'll watch them again and see what I'm missing. I have what's considered to be one of the best ROH tapes in ASE and a lot of it I found to be fluff (IMO the best match was the Main Event... Ohtani got more of a reaction from his bootscrapes than the any of the scamble moves... The 6 man was decent enough, Dragon vs Styles I should watch again..)

 

UWF-i was a "unique" promotion in the way they went about making matches (or at least, not indicative of the rest of the Puro landscape), but the spirit of it I believe rings true in a lot of Japanese Pro Wrestling. It's a competition. It's a fight. It's not an exhibition of moves. As I said before, the need to do moves rather than the 'choice' - those mat sequences are a perfect example. I don't see a need for it (and they are rarely ever worked well). Perhaps it's just the match-layout, or the pacing, but in Dragon vs London 2/3 falls they were all over the place with some of their stuff. They did a "oh they're both so tired" desperation spot and I just wasn't buying it (maybe it's the horrible announcing which totally kills the suspension of disbelief). Meanwhile, Akiyama vs. Hase 5/2/98 -which by no means is considered a classic- incorporates such things much more intelligently and added to the match. It took two stories of "young punk" vs. "old vet" and "Akiyama goes the extra-distance to beat Hase/Old Dog..new tricks" and played it up throughout - all leading up to the Exploder 98 finish. Workrate wise, it couldn't touch Dragon/London, but it was the smarter/tighter/better match.

 

I remember reading posts from you about how in an American Dragon match, there was a submisison that would have been the end of the match in an MMA style match and holding it against the match as a result. Is Pro Wrestling the same as MMA? Of course not. So why hold them to the same standards. Pro Wrestling has never been about recreating real fighting 100 percent If it was, we would see no rope running (which doesn't make a lot of logic). I think that may account for the way you feel about the indies. If that's the case, maybe you should just stick to MMA the whole time, because if you are looking for all wrestling matches to imitate real fights, you are going to be disappointed like you seem to be with the indies.

 

I believe that was in regards to Low Ki vs. Dragon where there was a triangle choke applied... yeah, ya see, the triangle choke is an MMA move. It's not a sharpshooter, it's not a figure-four leglock, it's MMA. You don't get taught that in wrestling school. So when you work moves like that into a match, when you use MMA elements, you should try to be as real as possible with it - because that's the pretense you are giving. Of course, they only used it because "it's from MMA" and they "wanted to be like MMA"... they didn't need to do it, just like they don't need that stupid GnP they used as well. Both were poorly performed moves because all they wanted was the image. They set the standards themselves, yet I'm the bad guy for holding them to it? What's this about logic? As for running the ropes, they *don't* run the ropes during their little sequences because they're "playing shooter" and that goes out the window once they want to play something else. I wouldn't mind that if they actually put a better story (ala, Hase/Akiyama) other than "can you top this" behind it to give it a context and didn't do it in seemingly every match up - but they just do it to show it. Wrestling used to be about Fighting 100% btw. and it went to looking like fighting 100% right up to the 70's and 80's (again, another generalization as one could point out several different wrestlers that didn't do that, but I don't think you could deny that this wasn't the case for some of pro wrestling)and it never hurts to try to be as real as possible to help maintain that level of disbelief. Nothing wrong with treating it like a legitimate contest, nothing wrong with the catch-as-catch-can style, it's just about consistancy, execution, content and context. But even then, I wonder if they (The Generalized Indy Guy) could perform a "simple, fake" match if they wanted to. If they could just play "wrestler"..

 

And I usually do stick with MMA, but every once in a while I'll check out what's goin on in the indies to see what all the kidz are talkin bout. Still, I don't ask for my wrestling to be MMA, I just would like to see them incorporate MMA moves correctly rather than "monkey see"..