The Ghost of bps21 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 All it's supposed to accomplish is getting people to buy. There's over a month to the show and it's already a failure. All we know is Hogan/Jarrett, Tiger Mask is coming and they'll probably do Ultimate X 2...but it's a failure in every possible way already. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 You are so hyper defensive about TNA that it's almost not worth posting anything that you dislike about the product on this board. There's a month till the big show, yet I still see no big TV ads, no hype, nothing. They haven't even picked a venue yet. The Tiger Mask IV thing has me excited, and if they insist on taking the title off Styles, maybe they could pair Styles and Tiger Mask up. If Hogan is in this for truly altruistic reasons, then he should put some money behind the ads, because he sure has enough. In 2004, no promotion with Hogan as the focus is going to be profitable for longer than a month. Hogan has the nostalgia kick, but that always fades away really fast. My hope, above all other things, is that they shock the hell out of me and keep the title on Styles this Wednesday. This way, they could keep the young guys like Styles in the world title picture, and make Hogan the semi-main event, so it doesn't seem like he is the center of the whole promotion. I think the chances of this happening are slim and none, with slim on permanent vacation, but there's always hope. You remind me of one of the people that was firmly in denial during the 1999-2000 period in WCW. Whenever anyone said that the company should change direction, it was always, "you're too negative", or "Hogan can draw more than Chris Benoit any day". In the end, WCW died, and the endless defenders seemed to have moved to TNA's defense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Ghost of bps21 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 The reason that doesn't work...is that I point out facts and the absuridity of people throwing dirt on TNA every day since they opened. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Cooke 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 TNA has not made *any* profit in the history of their company. That is a fact. ROH, on the other hand, has to sell 400 tickets to break even on a show. Anything after 400 tickets and *all* video tape sales are profit. They have failed to reach 400 twice in 2003, both times in Pittsburgh, and they will not be returning there. It is a fact the TNA papers their audience. Meltzer reports in EVERY WON issue that TNA sells 250-300 tickets and papers the rest. About exposure: ECW got National TV on TNN and failed to produce in the ratings and also failed to deliver higher buy rates. WCW, in it's dying days, drew 2.5's on Nitro (which is more people watching their show then TNA could imagine possible) but couldn't deliver on PPV. Product was a problem but the last 3 PPV's were a much improved step up from the dismal 2000 PPV's which Russo produced. Bottom line, making money is how you suceed in the business. Panda will run out of money if TNA doesn't make a profit. WCW, with Ted Turner's large sums of money, ran out of money. No one ever thought that would happen. Regardless of TNA's wrestling and storylines, they have a small syndicated show which doesn't reach many of the top 20 markets and the one's they are in don't even show up in the ratings. Oh and Sting being a draw....when did he draw last? 1997 is the answer, against Hogan/NWO. Sting isn't a draw. In TNA, Jarrett and Raven and even Styles are more of a draw than Sting is. TNA keeps on hanging on, but only God knows how. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Cooke 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 Double post. My bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Thread Killer 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 I agree with what you are saying Tim, and trust me, I am just a big of a ROH mark as I am TNA (and since a lot of the same guys work for both companies, it's pretty easy). I agree that TNA is losing money, no doubt, but don't most small businesses lose money for the first few years before they take off? I think from what I have read (so I could be wrong) that Panda energy is aware that they will not make money for a while with TNA, but are right now making the investment they need to in order to get it where they need to go. My problem is that so many people come into this folder and shit all over TNA...and they DON'T EVEN WATCH IT! It's like they just want it to fail, and seem angry that there are people who enjoy it. I have seen and own every ROH show, so I feel I can make a good judgement on what that product is like. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jebus 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 RoH has a lot over TNA: * Better feuds * Way better wrestling * A championship that means something Well, I gotta disagree on the championship front The prestigious ROH Title once held by Xavier...let's not forget current tag champs Special K! Seriously, who picks the champs for this promotion!?!?!? At least TNA has credible champs and the NWA name helps as they also have history on their side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 I concede the Special K thing, I don't really understand that decision. However, Joe has added a lot to the title since taking it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoboBrazil 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2003 Hulk Hogan is a smart move for TNA. He will get on shows like Regis and Kelly and maybe even Jay Leno and hype the ppv, making TNA known across the country to casual viewers. He is also going to bring in celebrity friends with him like George Foreman that should also get press with sports shows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe2k5 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Of course I can, heh. It's a promotion in its first year that is showing nothing but good signs, with higher attendance and better revenue as the months go on. Eventually, you have to make money, and if that doesn't start for TNA, or any of the others, they are going to disappear. That is the harsh reality of it all. Being on TV really prematurely is hurting the companies you mention more than helping, because many of them are not ready. Hell, WCW was on TV during the dying days, it didn't change the fact that they were losing shitloads of money. The fact that TNA even is resorting to Hogan shows how little momentum the product has gained since the beginning. I used to be as big a RoH fan as anyone, but for someone giving the company a verbal blowjob, I figured you would know that they are already in their second year. And the changes in quality of their venues isn't from Ring of Honor revenue, but off the revenue RF makes from pirating footage and not paying the talent he features in the videos. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest abowen33 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Wrestling fanboy fight! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tommytomlin 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 I know the NWA World Title's lineage can kind of be traced to the WWE RAW World Championship, but I don't see how the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, held by men such as Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes and Harley Race, is less prestigious than a title held by a guy named 'Samoa Joe'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest dvkorn Report post Posted October 20, 2003 RoH is not for everyone.... RoH's story's predominately blow.... (apart from Punk/Raven, Corino/Homicide and maybe a couple of others.) 2 reasons why RoH, in the same position would not get more buys than TNA... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jay Z. Hollywood Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Briscoe vs. Briscoe was also damn good, don't forget that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Whoops, sorry about that, it was a mistake to say it was in its first year. I have all the shows, not sure why I typed that. Of course the NWA title is prestigious, but wasn't K-Kwik the champ just a short while ago? And hey, if you count the NWA title as the same thing as the WCW title, David Arquette of all people had it. The fact that Ric Flair *was* champion doesn't mean the belt still has prestige. It does give it a natural advantage, but having consistently good title defenses does more than just naming lineage. I don't really buy the notion either that you need "stories" to sell wrestling. Factions and hate between two wrestlers is good enough, you don't need nonstop heel/face turns and wrestlers running over each others dogs, etc. The original NWA didn't have excessive bullshit, and it drew very well. Why can't it work again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 I agree with the theory of Hogan bringing in more buys and thus exposing more people to the product, but couldn't that be accomplished without putting him in the main event? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eirejmcmahon 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Any word on Hogan actually signing a contract yet ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe2k5 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 It would kind of be a waste to bring in Hulk Hogan and not have him headline. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mystery Eskimo 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Also, Hogan would probably want to main event. I don't see him settling for a midcard program. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jay Z. Hollywood Report post Posted October 20, 2003 NWA title and WCW title are different belts. When Arquette had the WCW title, I believe Steve Corino was the NWA champion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Cooke 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Same lineage though. And as of the print deadline for today's WON, Hogan still had not signed a contract with TNA yet. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dynamite Kido Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ROH attendance doesn't dwarf TNA's. ROH barely gets 500 fans to an event if that and TNA gets 1,000 to 1,500 every week and TNA gets that in the shithole named Nashville. It isn't even in hot wrestling towns like ROH visits. The only time ROH's attendance came close to TNA's is when they had Jeff Hardy on the show and all those horny girls showed up. Don't get me wrong, as I can see your point. But the real question is, what fed makes more money, ROH or TNA? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OSIcon Report post Posted October 20, 2003 I still say people are way over-estimating the impact Hogan will have. He has been off of TV for just a few months. It is not like people have been waiting years to see Hogan in a wrestling rin again. Just a few months ago, they could seem him wrestling on FREE TV. Television ratings and buyrates for the WWE didn't have a dramatic (or even noticeable) increase when Hogan came. Nor did they take a dive when he left. That would seem to indicate that there aren't a whole lot of people out there who will watch a show (none the less buy one) JUST to see Hogan. I am sure he will bring in some fans. That is expected. However, I think some of you are just looking at this without the facts and figuring that Hogan has this huge fanbase that he takes with him everywhere. That really isn't the case anymore. He may get some media exposure, but I also thing that is being overestimated. What would be the angle for him to be on shows? "Hulk Hogan Returns to Wrestling.....After a four month absence"? RoH's story's predominately blow.... (apart from Punk/Raven, Corino/Homicide and maybe a couple of others.) 2 reasons why RoH, in the same position would not get more buys than TNA... Not really. ROH has so many stories going on and one time and most all are logical. Some are goofy and there are a few bad ones like you will get everywhere. But to make the generalizaiton that their stories all blow is just wrong. Especially because I would say the same about TNA. And as has been said a million times, TNA is making these big moves WITHOUT MAKING A PROFIT. That isn't smart business. Nor does that make TNA successful. You need to actually make money to be successful. ROH is making money. TNA is not. The business that makes money is the more successful one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Cooke 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ROH makes more money than TNA. TNA has never made a profit. ROH has profitted on 75-80% of their shows, if not more. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob_barron 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Tim- Did ROH make a profit off 8.16? I remember the crowd being quite small Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OSIcon Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Did ROH make a profit off 8.16? I remember the crowd being quite small. Meltzer was talking about that specific show in the Observer when he made the comment that ROH was happy with the turnout (I think it was around 450) because they only need to get 450 (or it may have been 400) people to breakeven on live shows. The idea is that they can then make their profit off of tapes of the event. So yes, if you count the tapes of the event as part of the event's profit, then they did make a profit. The tape sales are included in event profit because it is a lot like TNA or the WWE citing the live gate and PPV buys as revenue for a show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob_barron 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 I just remember Rob Feinstein looking at the turnout for tickets and having a 'Oh shit- this isn't good' look on his face. Good to hear they made a profit though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dynamite Kido Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ROH, on the other hand, has to sell 400 tickets to break even on a show. Anything after 400 tickets and *all* video tape sales are profit. They have failed to reach 400 twice in 2003, both times in Pittsburgh, and they will not be returning there. Tim where did you find this out? I live in Pittsburgh so I was just wondering. If it's definately true, I am soooooo pissed...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob_barron 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Yea- ROH isn't coming back to Pittsburgh. Gabe told me that the crowds sucked as well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dynamite Kido Report post Posted October 20, 2003 I thought the crowd for Round Robin Challenge 2 was awesome. There was definately more than 400 too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
